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 The Shadow wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
The main rulebook is $74.24,

I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]

We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.

Says who exactly?

Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...

We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.

If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.

If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.

But then he may not get into 40k, because of the same reason.

But, the bottom line is, those sort of people, who walk into a GW store and pay direct, are usually people who don't care about price or think that that's the price they have to pay. We, on this forum, and similar ones, are the clued up ones about the world of wargaming. We're the ones having a discussion about the expense of Warhammer Fantasy, so we're the ones who care about it. We can't have a discussion about what the Average Joe would do because the Average Joe is never going to read this.

And in that case you still need to have an easily quantifiable value to be able to have an objective discussion about costs, so you can switch prices from retail store to internet store with their usual 20% discounts. What you cannot do is base cost discussions on that time that you found a steal on ebay, because those conditions aren't easily repeatable.

Ok. Now build a competitive 2000pt 40k army for $300. Keep in mind that you'll need the escalation and fortification books because they have changed the 40k meta so much.

Money will never be a problem with fantasy because of unit-filling dioramas that let you build 50-man blocks with one unit box.

Rules problems? Any worse than a revenant titan hiding behind 3 void shields and dropping 4 d-strength pie plates?

I like fantasy; it's generally more strategically complex than 40k and movement trays mean I don't have to wait an hour for a tyranid or work player to complete their movement phase.

 spaceelf wrote:

boyd wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
The most common complaints I hear:

1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase

The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.

As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.

I believe that Fantasy is highly imbalanced. Almost all tournaments use comp systems, as many other people also think that the game is not balanced.

If you think that the game is balanced then try to beat a good no comp tournament list with a Tomb Kings list.

My friend does this with ease. Tomb Kings are not as bad as everyone says, you just can't be a crappy general and expect to play poorly and win. That said, I find fantasy overbloated on rules, too many arguments over the way certain things are written in the book, and things like the 8th edition High Elves going "you're a daemon? I win." There is enough wrong with fantasy that after trying KoW, I'm done with warhammer fantasy. It's a simpler, smoother game, and it's what Warhammer used to be to me (6th edition style, that is).

 pities2004 wrote:

Honestly, who the hell pays retail nowadays

I firmly believe that retail shops help the hobby. If people do not buy fantasy retail, then the retail shops will not support it. Earlier in this thread someone stated that there were not many fantasy players in MD. Someone suggested going to Dropzone games. The person said that they had been there and did not find many people.

Regardless, even if you take into account a 20% discount, it still only gives us $375 retail to build an army. While this is somewhat more manageable than 300, it is still not ideal.

Many other popular miniature games are so much less expensive than fantasy that it has a hard time competing.
Malifaux
2.0 rules $40
Fate Deck: $7.25
2 boxed sets $90
3 extra minis $30
Total cost $167.25

Infinity
Free rules
Two boxed sets $100
4 extra models $60
Total cost $160

Kings of war
Two army sets $150
Total cost: $150

Dreadball
Deluxe starter set $80
Season two book $20
Two more teams $50
Total cost $150

All of these forces include plenty of extra items, so you have a variety of things to play with. Thus even with lots of extra items these games cost half as much as fantasy.

timetowaste85 wrote:
My friend does this with ease. Tomb Kings are not as bad as everyone says, you just can't be a crappy general and expect to play poorly and win.

The initiative test spells like Purple Sun and Pit of Shades kill TK. The spells are good in general so people take those lores. Against low Init armies they wreak havok.

 spaceelf wrote:

Many other popular miniature games are so much less expensive than fantasy that it has a hard time competing.
Malifaux
2.0 rules $40
Fate Deck: $7.25
2 boxed sets $90
3 extra minis $30
Total cost $167.25

Infinity
Free rules
Two boxed sets $100
4 extra models $60
Total cost $160

Kings of war
Two army sets $150
Total cost: $150

Dreadball
Deluxe starter set $80
Season two book $20
Two more teams $50
Total cost $150

All of these forces include plenty of extra items, so you have a variety of things to play with. Thus even with lots of extra items these games cost half as much as fantasy.

Yep, these are certainly more cheap than fantasy but just because its cheap doesnt mean that its better. Do these wargames have the other benefits of fantasy such as a wide playerbase, variety of armies, fun yet tactical rules? (those are the things I like most about fantasy).

Also do they really give you a proper army thats a good size? Care to provide some lists like Shadow did? I dont know much about those wargames and Im sure theres others who dont either so would you elaborate and prove your point?

I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

In my FLGS, 40k is the poison of choice for most of the wargamers but with that being said there are a number of stores around here and some cater to different games. I know that one in particular is bigger for fantasy than anything else while another one actually has a massive Mechwarrior following.

I have found that areas with younger players, especially those in the military seem to have far more 40k players than anything else maybe becuase they relate a bit more to it?? Who knows. Like the translation for San Diego it is lost to the sands of time

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.

In terms of lists here is a malifaux list.
Mother of Monsters Lilith boxed set $40
Nephilim boxed set $40
These contain the following models
Lilith
Cheurb totem
Barbaros
3 Terror tots
2 Young nephilim
Mature nephlim

These miniatures make a 48 point list. The final two points can be filled with upgrade cards. A 50 point game is a good size.
We are free to buy more models for some variety.
Doppleganger $9.5
Hans $9.5

Rule Book $40
Cards $7.50
Total cost: $146.50

 Druchii wrote:

Yep, these are certainly more cheap than fantasy but just because its cheap doesnt mean that its better. Do these wargames have the other benefits of fantasy such as a wide playerbase, variety of armies, fun yet tactical rules? (those are the things I like most about fantasy).

Also do they really give you a proper army thats a good size? Care to provide some lists like Shadow did? I dont know much about those wargames and Im sure theres others who dont either so would you elaborate and prove your point?

Have you played anything other than GW games? Because both WHFB 8th edition and 40k 6th edition are as far away from "tactical rules" as it gets when someone is talking about miniature games...

Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.

Infinity forces have around 10 models on each side, same thing for Malifaux (and Dreadball AFAIK).

I'm not familiar with Kings of War, but their army sets range from 40+ to 110 miniatures AFAIK.

 spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.

In terms of lists here is a malifaux list.
Mother of Monsters Lilith boxed set $40
Nephilim boxed set $40
These contain the following models
Lilith
Cheurb totem
Barbaros
3 Terror tots
2 Young nephilim
Mature nephlim

These miniatures make a 48 point list. The final two points can be filled with upgrade cards. A 50 point game is a good size.
We are free to buy more models for some variety.
Doppleganger $9.5
Hans $9.5

Rule Book $40
Cards $7.50
Total cost: $146.50

So does chess. Chess is a lot cheaper too.
You just can not take two completely different games and compare them.
What is your point?

PhantomViper wrote:

Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.

Wow, it is so good that you know exactly what games are being played in the entire world, even in places you've never even been though.
In my area, WHFB is very popular, while Infinity and Malifaux are not even sold in any store in a 100 km radius around my house, and I have never seen anyone playing it.

I started playing Fantasy in 6th edition, basically 1999/2000. I went to a bunch of GTs, local events, and did my fair share of well. Made some good friends and had a great time, both competitively at larger events and locally. The game was fun, and eventually every army got a book. There were balance issues. Vampire Counts led by a necromancer, for example, were very strong. Royal Air Force Brets, Clan Skyre oriented Skaven, Daemonic Legion from Storm of Chaos, the Slayer army from the same, and Wood Elves were all at a different power level than most of the other books in the game. But you could build lists for most things where if you played well and had a bit of luck, you could win the uphill battle. List design was paramount, as a bad list in a bad army was basically doomed to failure. There were other problems. The way magic was structured (along with dispel scrolls), the only reasonable choices were to bring a ton of magic (lvl 4, 3x lvl2) or just a lvl1 scroll caddy. Skirmishers were too powerful, being highly maneuverable and with very different rules about how they ranked up during combat. Finally, cavalry units tended to be the most potent offensive choices, and melee infantry were generally inefficient if they cost more than a few points each. HW/Shield was the ubiquitous choice for armament. Fear was a super strong mechanic, as was terror, and there were a number of large beasties that could threaten large swathes of the battlefield while being reasonably safe from retaliation due to LoS.

Then 7th edition came. GW clearly had their eyes set on some of the above. Skirmishers were nerfed incredibly. Mages only got to use their own dice IIRC. But inconsistency of army books remained. Cavalry got stronger. Dragons, steam tanks, and hydras all became common sights. Good intentions, but I thing the end result was the exacerbation of the root issues. Only a few armies were actually competitive. Within those armies, only a small chunk was actually usable.

So out came 8th. A major overhaul. Magic was random. Point allocation shifted dramatically. Gone were the 2 core unit requirement. Now it was a percentage of points. But people still wanted to bring their lords! So no longer could you play 2000 or 2250...games now needed to be 2400, 2500, or even 3000 (a large game when I started...I played exactly 0 of these for about 7 years). Infantry were given numerous buffs. Books began becoming rapidly released. But the soul of the game is gone. I've played about 20 games, watched dozens more. The game devolves into a grand melee about midfield. Magic removes nearly whole units at a time. Given the massive units, all on the same size board as before, room to maneuver went down greatly. Almost no LoS rules, and terrain no longer hindered movement as much. Arrange blocks of 10x4+ 20mm or 25mm bases and push them forward. Throw bucketfuls of dice. Hope yours end up more 3+'s and 4+'s, and your opponent more the 1's. Get off that irresistable spell X that removes your opponents main 400pt unit from the board. What fun.

So, in short, the game went from a game that had its issues, but was very focused on movement and the application of force to a game that perhaps has fewer mechanical problems but is mostly just an exercise in dice rolling.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:
I started playing Fantasy in 6th edition, basically 1999/2000. I went to a bunch of GTs, local events, and did my fair share of well. Made some good friends and had a great time, both competitively at larger events and locally. The game was fun, and eventually every army got a book. There were balance issues. Vampire Counts led by a necromancer, for example, were very strong. Royal Air Force Brets, Clan Skyre oriented Skaven, Daemonic Legion from Storm of Chaos, the Slayer army from the same, and Wood Elves were all at a different power level than most of the other books in the game. But you could build lists for most things where if you played well and had a bit of luck, you could win the uphill battle. List design was paramount, as a bad list in a bad army was basically doomed to failure. There were other problems. The way magic was structured (along with dispel scrolls), the only reasonable choices were to bring a ton of magic (lvl 4, 3x lvl2) or just a lvl1 scroll caddy. Skirmishers were too powerful, being highly maneuverable and with very different rules about how they ranked up during combat. Finally, cavalry units tended to be the most potent offensive choices, and melee infantry were generally inefficient if they cost more than a few points each. HW/Shield was the ubiquitous choice for armament. Fear was a super strong mechanic, as was terror, and there were a number of large beasties that could threaten large swathes of the battlefield while being reasonably safe from retaliation due to LoS.

Then 7th edition came. GW clearly had their eyes set on some of the above. Skirmishers were nerfed incredibly. Mages only got to use their own dice IIRC. But inconsistency of army books remained. Cavalry got stronger. Dragons, steam tanks, and hydras all became common sights. Good intentions, but I thing the end result was the exacerbation of the root issues. Only a few armies were actually competitive. Within those armies, only a small chunk was actually usable.

So out came 8th. A major overhaul. Magic was random. Point allocation shifted dramatically. Gone were the 2 core unit requirement. Now it was a percentage of points. But people still wanted to bring their lords! So no longer could you play 2000 or 2250...games now needed to be 2400, 2500, or even 3000 (a large game when I started...I played exactly 0 of these for about 7 years). Infantry were given numerous buffs. Books began becoming rapidly released. But the soul of the game is gone. I've played about 20 games, watched dozens more. The game devolves into a grand melee about midfield. Magic removes nearly whole units at a time. Given the massive units, all on the same size board as before, room to maneuver went down greatly. Almost no LoS rules, and terrain no longer hindered movement as much. Arrange blocks of 10x4+ 20mm or 25mm bases and push them forward. Throw bucketfuls of dice. Hope yours end up more 3+'s and 4+'s, and your opponent more the 1's. Get off that irresistable spell X that removes your opponents main 400pt unit from the board. What fun.

So, in short, the game went from a game that had its issues, but was very focused on movement and the application of force to a game that perhaps has fewer mechanical problems but is mostly just an exercise in dice rolling.

Yeah, I'm not too happy about the regiment erasing spells either. I get that it was to counter steadfast, but a much better counter in this case would have been to have steadfast be cancelled out by flanking a unit if it is already engaged in combat with another unit. Cavalry would then be very important for getting those anti-Steadfast flanks and there would have been a greater emphasis on positioning and movement. But nope, Purple vortex of death.

Iron Captain and Druchii have some good points.

Yes, Malifaux or whatever is far cheaper to start but that's because they're skirmish games. Like Iron Captain says, that's completely different. I could now argue that WHFB is super-cheap because you could get your hands on the old skirmish rules and buy a character and box of troops. Done. WHFB, proper WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.

I'd also point out that Malifaux and similar games, at least here in the UK, are not widely sold or widely known. Their niche, the thing they use to attract players, is their cheap cost. They have to be cheap in order to survive. I guarantee you that the vast majority of players of these games, at least here in the UK, are players who have tried getting into WHFB/40k, but then decided to switch because of price. However, you still can use that to fault WHFB, because, as I said, WHFB isn't skirmish.

Things might be different in the US, I don't know, You may be able to walk into a corner shop and buy a box of malifaux and a pint of milk. If it's as scarcely sold as here, then I'd bet the situation is the same.

And, as Druchii, says, WHFB has a lot going for it, whilst Infinity/Malifaux/whatever might not. I've never played either (well, I did start Malifaux but never really got into it - though that's another story). The rules might be great, they might be crap, I won't comment as, like I said, I don't know them well enough. Point is, it's not all about price

I forgot to mention! On top of the steadily decreasing fun factor of the game over 10+ years (longer actually, because I did play a bunch of 5th edition, but that was mostly just at friend's houses so I won't count it), the cost of keeping up actually increased at a higher rate. So I was paying more to have less fun.

Also, cost is relevant. But not in the way I think some are saying. A person has $X of discretionary spending. Game A has 100 models for that cost. Game B has 1. However, for the person, Game A is somewhat boring. Game B, on the other hand, is exciting and dynamic. What should they spend their money on? That's what it boils down to. All of these games are luxury items. Play what you get the most mileage out of for enjoyment and entertainment. For me, for right now that's warmachine/hordes. It's cheaper than GW games...but not that much cheaper. But I love the game, the models are good, and the rules/release cycles are far more pleasant.

 spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.

By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.

I can play tic-tac-toe for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.

That's not the case where I play in metro Atlanta. WHFB isn't as popular as WH40K, but I haven't seen a game of Malifaux played since early this year and Infinity gets a small group on Thursdays at the FLGS. While uncommon, WHFB is still more common than either of those, here.

 pities2004 wrote:


Honestly, who the hell pays retail nowadays

I just did today, for some spider riders and arachnarok... Been at this for decades so its not like I don't know how to get deals if I wanted.

There's numerous reasons anyone would do that, ( mine today was as simple as - I want to), don't see the drama of understanding why others prefer doing things differently.

Is wfb expensive? Err depends on what you take out of your minis... Arachnarok will give me months of fun just painting al those wonderful details and converting... so for my wallet 36pounds spreaded by 90 days ( at my speed probably double) is 0.4 per day...But thats me... lets go crazy and add greenstuff, paints and all tools etc and make it say 1pound per day... still cheap.

Can I get infinity cheaper? Done that! 40k? Done that... Hordes? etc etc.... Done all that, been there. I have minis for the systems I like and all of them are equally enjoyable to me. Today I wanted some gobbos so yeah got a bunch.

 The Shadow wrote:
WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.

Well a more fair comparison then would be between WHFB and another Massive-battle game, like Kings of War

WHFB Orcs & Goblins Battalion 70£
20 Goblins
15 Orc boys
10 Goblin spider riders
5 Orc boar boyz

Total: 50 miniatures (35 infantry, 15 Cavalry)

KoW Orc Army Set 49.99£
32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook
3 Plastic Resin Trolls
1 Gore Rider Chariot
20 Plastic Orcs with Command
20 Plastic Greatax with Command
10 Plastic Resin Gore Riders

Total: 54 miniatures and a rulebook ( 40 Infantry, 10 Infantry, 1 chariot, 3 monstrous infantry)

More for less

 pities2004 wrote:

dalloskid wrote:
Just curious, does anyone have any more info on the removal of the Dwarf Battalion? Like why it happened, plans to replace it etc.

Dwarfs are rumored to be the next fantasy book in FEB

Cheers for that!

The Shadow definitely has a point here; This topic originally started talking about how it affects HIM, a Dakka Forum user - and what he feels is wrong with this game. We aren't talking about some 12 year old that comes in off the street here.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.

Well a more fair comparison then would be between WHFB and another Massive-battle game, like Kings of War

WHFB Orcs & Goblins Battalion 70£
20 Goblins
15 Orc boys
10 Goblin spider riders
5 Orc boar boyz

Total: 50 miniatures (35 infantry, 15 Cavalry)

KoW Orc Army Set 49.99£
32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook
3 Plastic Resin Trolls
1 Gore Rider Chariot
20 Plastic Orcs with Command
20 Plastic Greatax with Command
10 Plastic Resin Gore Riders

Total: 54 miniatures and a rulebook ( 40 Infantry, 10 Infantry, 1 chariot, 3 monstrous infantry)

More for less

How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?

If you build it "as is" it's 580 points (without any magic items) which is totally playable, I usually play 1000-1500 point games. Quality-wise it's pretty nice, I prefer their resin-mix to GWs finecast. GW beats them in the bitz department though, Only the plastic Orcs and Greataxes has extra bits (weapons and snotlings mostly). As for converting I dont see why not, it's just plastic and resin.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?

If you build it "as is" it's 580 points (without any magic items) which is totally playable, I usually play 1000-1500 point games. Quality-wise it's pretty nice, I prefer their resin-mix to GWs finecast. GW beats them in the bitz department though, Only the plastic Orcs and Greataxes has extra bits (weapons and snotlings mostly). As for converting I dont see why not, it's just plastic and resin.

How many points do you get in the GW set though? Granted, there is still a 20 pound difference between them, but as they say, the devil is in the details.
Spare bits are always good. I tend to use them to build characters. Much cheaper than buying the blister from GW.

Saldiven wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.

By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.

I can play tic-tac-toe for free.

It is true that some games are free. Price is not the only factor that a player considers when purchasing a game. Tic-Tac-Toe does not appeal to many wargamers. It lacks depth, does not have miniatures, has no background/story etc.

The games that I mentioned above all have miniatures, interesting gameplay, and background. They are also displayed on store shelves right next to Fantasy. The comparison for gamers dollars is a very realistic one.

 spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.

By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.

I can play tic-tac-toe for free.

It is true that some games are free. Price is not the only factor that a player considers when purchasing a game. Tic-Tac-Toe does not appeal to many wargamers. It lacks depth, does not have miniatures, has no background/story etc.

The games that I mentioned above all have miniatures, interesting gameplay, and background. They are also displayed on store shelves right next to Fantasy. The comparison for gamers dollars is a very realistic one.

Where you are, yes. I have not seen a set of infinity nor malifaux in any of the FLGS I've been in. I did see a set of AT-43 though.

Depending on how you equipped the stuff in the WFB Orc battalion I reckon it would come to maybe 300-400 points at best.
The models are a little nicer, but it's down to individual tastes in some ways too- some may like the slightly more understated Mantic Orcs, others may prefer the more cartoony but more detailed GW Orcs.

 Da Boss wrote:
Depending on how you equipped the stuff in the WFB Orc battalion I reckon it would come to maybe 300-400 points at best.
The models are a little nicer, but it's down to individual tastes in some ways too- some may like the slightly more understated Mantic Orcs, others may prefer the more cartoony but more detailed GW Orcs.

Hmm so it's either pay more for fewer, but higher detailed models with many spare components, or pay less for more but not as finely detailed models with no few components.

Pretty much! I think the difference in quality is not significant (to me), so much that if I were doing my Orc army again I'd go all Mantic. I have a fully painted GW orc army though so, no need.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Hmm so it's either pay more for fewer, but higher detailed models with many spare components, or pay less for more but not as finely detailed models with no few components.

Well I gotta admit that it was a while ago I looked at GWs orcs up close but I dont think there is any difference in the level of detail, It's just two different aesthetics.

I was in the poundshop today and noticed there was a bag of 50 plastic army men for a quid. They were old Airfix moulds, and the flash was pretty bad - and they were a weird mix of British, Japanese , German and US paras - but the were ideal for the cost conscious wargamer. And free rules are not hard to find... meh if you are that worried about free, just make them up yourself, it's not hard... a copy of Charles Grant's The War Game will prove invaluable - ask Rick Priestly...

As for the actual question, there is very little wrong with WFB at present. The culture surrounding it is pretty toxic but GW appears to be attempting to gently lead it by the hand back to the optimistic/experimental times of the late 70's and early 80's. Which is nice. There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.

Which may or may not be related to Jervis' holidays on Crete

Marielle, that's a fallacious argument. The steep start up cost and time investment in Fantasy these days really is a factor in why you might not see many fantasy players. Comparing Mantic figures to plastic army men is pretty poor form- the better sculpts are not far from GW in terms of quality.

You are also quite insulting towards a lot of people in your second question. I don't understand why so many "casual gamers" feel the need to be like that towards the so called "hardcore tfg" crowd.

 marielle wrote:
There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.

I would say the folks you describe are the ones clinging to GW's 'systems'.

Free thought = buying the models you like from any manufacturer and using them all in whichever system (sorry, 'system' ) you like. Sounds like GW to me...