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Aipoch wrote: I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
$300 will not get you into Fantasy. The main rulebook is $74.24, and army books run approximately $50.00. That would leave $175.75 to spend on models. I would be hard pressed to build a force for 176 bucks.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance.
I do not think that steadfast, cavalry, and magic are minor issues. They ruin the game. They can be fixed, but have not been.
What's that saying? One man's rubbish is another man's treasure? I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with whfb. I run mostly night gobbos, and have around 300 models in that particular army, because I LIKE having masses of troops to throw at the opposition. As to the painting time, I can paint 40 gobbos quicker than I can paint a 10 man tac squad, because marines are more time consuming to clean up, assemble and paint, - more detail and a more complex construction. Incidentally, 20 gobbos are about the same price as 5 dire avengers, or sternguard etc, so it's not really much more expensive than 40k. Maybe a wee bit.
I don't mind the cost, because I've built up the army over about 20 years. Some of the models have doubled in value since I bought them, so if I sold it, I'd probably turn a profit.
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase
The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.
As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase
The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.
As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.
I believe that Fantasy is highly imbalanced. Almost all tournaments use comp systems, as many other people also think that the game is not balanced.
If you think that the game is balanced then try to beat a good no comp tournament list with a Tomb Kings list.
@spaceelf: you make a fair point, but the starting books were included in my estimation. If you don't believe me, pick any race from either system you prefer, and I will build you an army for that stated price.
Now to be fair, if we're talking about people getting into a hobby on a budget, I wouldn't for a second be so presumptuous about where they purchase their product. As such, I do not consider your estimation on the price of reading material as accurate given the vast supply of non-GW suppliers selling GW product, and I'm not just talking about ebay here. Both a core rulebook and appropriate codex/armybook can be purchased for any army for under $100.
As far as the game being highly imbalanced, I have to disagree. There is a stark difference between an imbalanced game, and a game which does not function as you think it should.
The issue of cavalry is that they do not function as most think they should; charging headlong into an enemy to break the lines. They do, however, function as a fast, hard hitting unit with other numerous uses.
Magic has equal amounts of lack-luster and boring moments for all of its over-the-top devastating ones. Again, this can relate to how we think magic should work, and how it does work. Because people spend over 400 points on a single (albeit powerful) human sized character, they believe he should have a natural immunity to the really disastrous spells of the world, or he should at least get a save where others do not, or something so that my super expensive\cornerstone\keystone\entire strategy doesn't come crashing down. But alas, he falls into the abyss that magically materialized below him just as easily as any other unfortunate soul; no amount of innate ability should give a character the "Wile E Coyote" syndrome of miraculously walking on thin air.
Steadfast has the issue of making large units scary for smaller deadlier units to tackle, and this upsets people. I can think of plenty of times my swordmasters were forced to chew through 25 clanrats in a single turn, only to have the other 75 or so stick around for more even though they didn't kill anyone in return. I guess those 75 rats didn't get the memo that I just killed 25 of their closest friends with 21 of my finest warriors. It's an escalation of things to be sure, but still, I've never had a problem breaking a units steadfast ability with an appropriately sized unit of my own. This does lead back into the "you need many models" syndrome of WHFB, so I'll stop here to end the loop.
As for comp systems and tourneys, the majority of the ones I have played in impart a comp more for convenience and less for balance. Games simply play faster and are judged easier when certain restrictions are put in place, like limiting power dice casting, unit sizes, special character allotments, etc. Never forget the poor effort made by all to ever assume either WHFB or 40K are tournament games; they are not. They are not chess, they are not MtG, they are not designed for tournament play. You should require no bigger example of this than the current uproar the 40K tourney community is in over the inclusion of the now "standard" additions to the game...which just scream OH so highly of balance...
Cryonicleech wrote: I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
So you're not saying it's too expensive to start; it's also too expensive and too long to start?
I could afford to create an army of 14 carat gold if I bought it slowly enough, that doesn't make it any cheaper than I bought it at once. I'm also pretty patient but I don't fancy the idea of spending months buying and assembling an army before I can use it, in the local meta that might mean the game has gone out of fashion before I even get a game.
Surely if I can get similar figures in the same scale and material (and occasionally the same sculpter) for a fraction of the cost, then it must be too expensive?
I'm looking at getting into a Fantasy escalation campaign (starting at about 500pts) but I'm probably not going to be using GW figures unless I am getting them for at least 30-40% off RRP, and even then they are still no cheaper than Mantic.
Daba wrote: Even if you love a concept or model line, having just so many can be a real drag to do, and the numbers become a little too many.
It's not like the Epic example at all, as the problem is the quantity - too many and you will either fatigue it, the project will take too long and you lose interest or you need to drop the quality and do a rush job.
When I did my Blood Bowl team, I was really into it,but by the end of that I was getting a little fatigued and that was only 14 models, with a little variation between the positions. It would be much worse for 50, where the largest variations are only on the command.
Sidstyler wrote:Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
Again, the rule of cool applies, and so does it too depend on who you're playing. If you were to stick a single model on a 4x2 base and declare it a unit filler, I imagine there would be a few people who would complain. Personally, I couldn't care less. If your unit filler is good-looking and has actually had some effort put into it, most people will be more than happy to play you, and give you a few compliments as well, I'd wager.
Lanrak wrote:
Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.
I understand expensive, and random as well, but complicated? How is it complicated? It's 40k with angles and blocks of troops.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.
I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.
To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.
Funnily enough, there are more armies in the WHFB world than Skaven. If you don't want to paint a huge amount of models, then don't collect Skaven. That's like me saying "oh I don't like 40k because I don't like shooting armies and Tau are rubbish in close combat". Collect a different army. I've just put together a 2000 point (a good game size) Ogre list with 25 models. And two of those are chaff and cost 21 points each, and could easily be replaced for a Magic Banner on a unit.
I've done every army in fantasy bar Skaven! Many a sleepless night at not having done the full set, I tell you
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
Sensible advice. My problem with skaven has always been this: you paint forty models and then you discover you've only got 200 points
Then you get an army on the table, and somebody puts a big blast template on your unit! Damn those empire players!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/26 11:40:53
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Cryonicleech wrote: I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
So you're not saying it's too expensive to start; it's also too expensive and too long to start?
I believe the point is that this is a slow burner and if you spread getting/modeling 200ish models during a coupe years time frame its more manageable...
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay. By the same token I can say you can download all of the books for free from an inlet of land where sailors of a certain persuasion make port (), but is neither here nor there on what the books cost to buy retail.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/26 11:56:02
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
See, I view "buying into" a game that you won't actually be able to play for weeks or months to be even sillier. And I say this as someone who leans strongly on the modeller/painter side of the equation.
Aipoch wrote: @spaceelf: you make a fair point, but the starting books were included in my estimation. If you don't believe me, pick any race from either system you prefer, and I will build you an army for that stated price.
Try Beastmen. They not only loose a lot but are expensive to boot.
Now to be fair, if we're talking about people getting into a hobby on a budget, I wouldn't for a second be so presumptuous about where they purchase their product. As such, I do not consider your estimation on the price of reading material as accurate given the vast supply of non-GW suppliers selling GW product, and I'm not just talking about ebay here. Both a core rulebook and appropriate codex/armybook can be purchased for any army for under $100.
I agree that things can be purchased for less. However, if retail stores are not supported then they in turn do not support the game system. Without the support of stores, there are fewer new players, pick up games, etc. I really do think that price is a problem for Fantasy. It hurts the game in one way or another.
As far as the game being highly imbalanced, I have to disagree. There is a stark difference between an imbalanced game, and a game which does not function as you think it should.
In my estimation the game suffers from many different types of imbalances. The first is that certain armies are drastically weaker than others. For example, Tomb Kings and Beastmen do not stand a chance of winning against strong tournament lists. Some comp systems actually give these armies extra points because they are so weak. The second imbalance is that certain aspects of the game (magic) are so powerful that they essentially negate other aspects. For example, Purple Sun can lay waste to large swaths of a low initiative force. Worse yet, not all armies have access to the spell. The armies that have it, can assure that they get it. This leads back to the first point. The third aspect of the imbalance is that certain units are all but useless while others are must haves. For example, playing with a Jabberslythe is almost like giving your opponent a 100 point advantage. On the other hand two steam tanks is good in almost every Empire army.
Well, to be fair, the biggest and most consistent issue with both WHFB and WH40K over the last 20 or so years has been a complete lack of either internal or external balance within and between armies.
Aipoch wrote: no amount of innate ability should give a character the "Wile E Coyote" syndrome of miraculously walking on thin air.
Err wings?
Flying is hardly the same thing as walking on air.
I will admit though: Certain armies are way more expensive than others. I came up with a decent 1500 point list for VC, and it turned out to be around $658 AUD. Now I don't have exact comparisons, But I don't think you'd be hard pressed to form an army from another race for half of that.
The flip side is true, too. Some armies are far more expensive than the 1500 point list you propose. If you're trying a WHFBDE list focusing on Witch Elves, for example, which I believe run at around $10/model USD, retail. It wouldn't be unrealistic to spend $500-$600 on just Core for a Witch Based DE army at 1500 points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/26 20:56:06
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?
I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.
I think that you are drawing too fine a logical distinction Shadow. People do not like certain aspects of the game, and on that basis do not play it. These things may or may not be flaws in the game in some general sense. However, from the perspective of the commenter, they are most definitely flaws in the game. It should also be noted that many people are mentioning the same flaws over and over again. Price, number of models to build and paint, overpowered magic, grind fests between infantry, weak cavalry, etc. This lends some credence as flaws in a more objective sense.
Price and number of models (those two being linked) are the only things I'd accept as flaws of the game, over other games. "Overpowered" magic counters large blocks of infantry and clever, out-of-the-box tactics can counter both. It's a bit of a rock/paper/scissors mentality but nothing more, and yes, it could be improved, but show me a wargame with perfect rules.
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
spaceelf wrote:
Aipoch wrote: I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
$300 will not get you into Fantasy. The main rulebook is $74.24, and army books run approximately $50.00. That would leave $175.75 to spend on models. I would be hard pressed to build a force for 176 bucks.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance.
I do not think that steadfast, cavalry, and magic are minor issues. They ruin the game. They can be fixed, but have not been.
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
2) Opinions. They do counter each other, like I mentioned before. Not perfect, but, again, like I said, show me a wargame with perfect wargames. 40k has much, much bigger issues than the ones that WHFB has with magic or steadfast.
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
Well tastes differ, but may I ask why you prefer complicated rules?
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
Well tastes differ, but may I ask why you prefer complicated rules?
I'd venture there is confusion between complex (many possible interactions, deep) and complicated (difficult to understand, convoluted)
My personal barrier is one largely of cost, as seems to be a common theme, plus time (I just don't have painting time to add another army project just now, nor gaming time to support another system) additionally, notably fewer guys at my club play, and I would likely choose Wood Elves or Bretts, both of which commonly are held up as two of the armies most in need of updating.
I've bought in to the Mierce Darklands KS though, so I should be getting my sword 'n' sorcery kicks from that later in the year when the product arrives.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
Unfortunately the two battalion trick really does not work for most armies. (I agree that it works better for Ogres than for most other armies. Two Orge battalions now gets you 12 bulls, 12 ironguts, and 8 lead belchers. These come out to be (with upgrades) 424, 566, and 364 points. This puts us at 1354 for $220. Tacking on books and a $40 hero puts you well over $300.) As you pointed out the dwarves are oop. For beastmen, two battalions gets you approximately 700 points worth of models for $180. The problem with battalions is that you have to want to use the units they contain. This brings us back to the issue of balance. In many cases some of the units in the battalion are subpar. Examples include high elf spearmen, Saurus Cavalry, Chaos Knights, TK Skeleton Horsemen, etc.
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
Unfortunately the two battalion trick really does not work for most armies. (I agree that it works better for Ogres than for most other armies. Two Orge battalions now gets you 12 bulls, 12 ironguts, and 8 lead belchers. These come out to be (with upgrades) 424, 566, and 364 points. This puts us at 1354 for $220. Tacking on books and a $40 hero puts you well over $300.) As you pointed out the dwarves are oop. For beastmen, two battalions gets you approximately 700 points worth of models for $180. The problem with battalions is that you have to want to use the units they contain. This brings us back to the issue of balance. In many cases some of the units in the battalion are subpar. Examples include high elf spearmen, Saurus Cavalry, Chaos Knights, TK Skeleton Horsemen, etc.
I never said the two battalion trick was perfect, since it won't always meet the mark and won't always give you a good list. But, if you want a good list and you want to start a certain army, then you have to be prepared to pay more and, chances are, if you do want a better list or want to start VC, then you'll be prepared to pay. If you just want to give fantasy a go, or get started, you can easily do so for under 300USD.
The battalion trick works very well for Ogres (see list in the spoiler). Gets to 2000 easily whilst maintaining a strong list.
Spoiler:
Slaughtermaster - Lvl 4, GW, Hellheart, Tali of Pres, Ironcurse Icon (395) [Converted from Ogre]
Bruiser - BSB, Heavy Armour, GW, Tali of Endurance, Dragonhelm (185) [Converted from Ogre]
Butcher - Ironfist, Dispel Scroll (128) [Converted from Ogre]
9 Ogres - FC, Light Armour, Ironfists (318)
6 Ironguts - FC, Banner of Swiftness (313)
6 Ironguts - FC, Standard of Discipline (313)
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
See, I view "buying into" a game that you won't actually be able to play for weeks or months to be even sillier. And I say this as someone who leans strongly on the modeller/painter side of the equation.
This is my view as well. With every other game I've bought into I've been playing it (with bare plastics, at least) within a couple of days. Flames Of War took an evening or 2 of clipping and gluing, 40K took a couple of evenings clipping and gluing, Empire Of The Dead took a couple of hours clipping and gluing (8 metals a side), and I was playing X-Wing after minutes.
Having something I can't play for months because I need so much of it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me when there's so many other systems I can buy into and be playing next week at my club.
HI again.
Just to expand my comment on WHFB having over complicated rules , compared to KoW.
It was just the fact that KoW arrives at far more game play per page of rules, that WHFB does.
Most of KoW game play complexity is delivered by tactical interaction between the players in game.(Lots of good rules look simple , but are hard to master!)
A LOT of WHFB game complexity arrives DIRECTLY from complication in the rules from special rules for units, items, spells,random events etc.
I agree its is down to personal choice.
SOME like over complicated poorly defined rule set they can argue over, RAW vs RAI, and poor editing proof reading ,and generally just cheat on a 4+.
Most war gamers I know prefer straight forward rules that let you get on with the game with a minimum of fuss.
However, Rick Priestly has stated in interviews, GW plc believe their core demoghraphic of teen age boys, can NOT deal with complex tactical decision making.But they soak up data like a sponge.So GW insist on putting in loads of additional UN NEEDED rules in just for them learn.(Focus on cool sounding special rules to inspire purchases.)
However, I agree the cost in time and money required for WHFB is THE most prohibitive factors!
I down loaded the free rules for KoW , and the army lists.We played games with JUST card board bases the right sizes until we saved up for the army box sets.(About 1/4 the cost of GW stuff!)
So it cost me a few sheets of printer paper and a bit of time cutting up some boxes to START to play KoW.
Then we bought and painted units at our own pace...
A much better option for us than WHFB.
(Low start up cost, value for money products and great game play.Ex GW employees doing what the GW corporate would NEVER let them do.)
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.
If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay. By the same token I can say you can download all of the books for free from an inlet of land where sailors of a certain persuasion make port (), but is neither here nor there on what the books cost to buy retail.
Honestly, who the hell pays retail nowadays
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dalloskid wrote: Just curious, does anyone have any more info on the removal of the Dwarf Battalion? Like why it happened, plans to replace it etc.
Dwarfs are rumored to be the next fantasy book in FEB
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/27 13:29:51
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.
If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.
But then he may not get into 40k, because of the same reason.
But, the bottom line is, those sort of people, who walk into a GW store and pay direct, are usually people who don't care about price or think that that's the price they have to pay. We, on this forum, and similar ones, are the clued up ones about the world of wargaming. We're the ones having a discussion about the expense of Warhammer Fantasy, so we're the ones who care about it. We can't have a discussion about what the Average Joe would do because the Average Joe is never going to read this.
10,000 
), but is neither here nor there on what the books cost to buy retail.
