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TL;DNR - should i add terminators and lysander to my IG army?

The possible March release of the new IG codex is exciting, and I'm eager to find out what changes it will have.

In the meantime ... the past year of battle with the IG has delivered a clear message. Over and over I see bikes and other alpha strike methods make a joke out of my veteran chimera walls, and/or my large inf blobs, and end up at my tanks and artillery by turn 3-4. Having focused everything into their alpha strike, there is usually a sizable enemy force left, even after I kill the entire alpha strike.

Chimera wall with plasma/melta has been the most successful. At times when I was able to go first and drop my templates, then mop up what's left of their alpha strike, I've won. There were many loses due to first turn fast attack blitz, as I already described.

So, what to do? I always liked running Sisters of Battle with my IG, but they add nothing in the way of defense, unless you count "a good defense is a solid offense". The Sisters add some really effective short range shooting, and even some mid and long range shooting. They have some glass cannon assault options, some fast options, but it's all glass. Jacobus if great for the IG, but who cares if the enemy can still just kill them all. A good force, just not what I need.

I needed something that can not only give a beating, but take one as well, so I just bought terminators. I'm thinking about adding Lysander to the mix, and create a tarpit that can fight back (unlike the IG blob). The IG blob rolls a lot of dice, but come on, 50% hit, then S3 to wound? There aren't enough dice in the world that will make that a fair fight vs bikes, spawn, or any assault unit. I've heard people say "but you have so many, and they have stubborn, and you can give them FNP, or fearless, and you can add this buff, etc" NO. They suck. You can't polish a turd with all kinds of special magic powers, just stop talking. I'm ok with them sucking, that's fine.

But what do you think? Lysander? Something besides termis (even though they are already in the mail ...)? Ogryn are great, but I don't think they have the same damage output as twin lightning claws, and in this case, I need to hurt something, not just slow it down.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks.

-Obvious

IG already lack from being a slow moving army, if you deep strike the termies your opponent will just run away from them or just light them up. Assuming your using assault termies your opponent will just kill them with weight of fire. In this edition there is too much that can kill termies and easily.

Termies are more of support units in an army, you send them at an opponents flank or corner and try to take out as much as possible, you send them at their main frontal force and they will die a terrible death every single time.

Also if bike spam is hurting you then termies are also the wrong answer as bikes will be equiped with plasma or grav guns which both tear termies apart. They will also run circles around your termies and just take our your main force.

Once you add an HQ, Troop and then termies you will realize that you would almost be better off with a space marine primary and an IG allied detachment. Ive tried it with SW's and the new codex spave marines and have always seemed like once you start investing to much that its just not worth it unless you flop around who the primary is.

 tankboy145 wrote:
IG already lack from being a slow moving army, if you deep strike the termies your opponent will just run away from them or just light them up. Assuming your using assault termies your opponent will just kill them with weight of fire. In this edition there is too much that can kill termies and easily.

Termies are more of support units in an army, you send them at an opponents flank or corner and try to take out as much as possible, you send them at their main frontal force and they will die a terrible death every single time.

Also if bike spam is hurting you then termies are also the wrong answer as bikes will be equiped with plasma or grav guns which both tear termies apart. They will also run circles around your termies and just take our your main force.

Once you add an HQ, Troop and then termies you will realize that you would almost be better off with a space marine primary and an IG allied detachment. Ive tried it with SW's and the new codex spave marines and have always seemed like once you start investing to much that its just not worth it unless you flop around who the primary is.

I can agree with that. I've nuked enough deepstriking termi squads to know that they are in the running for the worst alpha strike idea in the game. My termis would be in a supporting role though, sitting back with the infantry and tanks, or rolling up the table together.

I agree that it's hard to balance allied detachments. I have guys saying all kinds of "waac" ideas, like "bring this combo with this character and your IG, and it will only cost you this, and then you win ... etc". But what it usually boils down to, is they're asking me to give up a third of my army, for some kind of ridiculous gimmick, at the cost of some major element of my IG build. It's gotta have synergy with what's already working in my army. I've had a lot of success with tanks and artillery, and I've had lots of success with rapid fire weapons, but vs assault units, the IG just melt away, and that's what people are bringing.

My IG force is a pure IG build, lots of high AV vehicles and lots of dudes. If you're going to face IG, what do you bring? Speed, melta and CC units, the 3 huge gapping holes in the IG's defenses. That's the equation for success vs IG, and it works too well. Speed puts the enemy in CC and melta range, we have an awkward round of shooting from point blank range, and the rest of the game is resolved in assault.

What if I made it so that CC was no longer an auto-win for the enemy? What if they needed to arm up with plasma, making them short on melta weapons? See what I'm saying? They would still have to deal with all the IG shooting, and high armor values, but now they have to deal with assault units as well.

I agree with everything you said about Terminators being crap in an offensive role, absolutely. But there is nothing in the IG codex that can hold their ground vs bikes, cavalry and anything fast with a CC focus. That's my experience anyway.

I've always thought that a 2+ armor save really isn't that good, I am also looking to a Space Marine allied contingent for my Imperial Guard. What my plans are-

To keep things relatively cheap, I am taking a bolter captain with artificier and an auspex, putting him in a 5 man marine squad with a lascannon.

Next I take a Legion of the Damned Squad. Personally, I feel that against plasma, grav, and everything else bikes bring to the table, a 3+ invuln will serve me better than a 2+ armor. Plus all of the bolter shots have ignores cover, invalidating the biker boost cover saves. On top of that they get 2 weapons in a 5 man squad.

Anti-Elite squad
5 Legion Damned
Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon

Meatshield squad
6+ Legion Damned
Flamer, Heavy Flamer

The flamers go well with your ignores cover bolter rounds, and you don't have to worry about the heavy profile since they have slow and purposeful! Legion are freaking awesome IMO.

I hope this helped you out a little bit, as I have had the exact same thoughts as you lately. I am hoping that we get a boost of some kind in the new codex, probably through any new units we get as they will likely want to sell those models.

This comment will be based on the fact that you ALREADY have termies coming your way and are planning on using them in your IG force. As mentioned, termies aren't the most powerful CC unit out there, and if you had asked prior to ordering them I would have pointed you in the direction of an honour guard squad for a good CC SM unit. But that is neither here nor there.

So termies it is:

since you don't specify which kind you got I'll try to give you pointers on how to use both:

-ASSAULT TERMIES: I saw a mention of LC termies higher up... Don't take them. You're talking about putting wounds on alpha strike units like bikers and daemons etc... You need the strength, re-roll to wound helps but when you gotta do it on 5s it's still tough (plus those daemon units will most likely still strike 1st anyway, so retaining your initiative wont help you much). Shell out the extra 25pts for some TH/SS and you'll be happy to get the resilience and extra S. Lysander will be very happy in that squad and guess what? He gets to insta-gib those multi-wound bike models with his S10 beatstick. If you need a cheaper HQ, this is one of the few times where I'd recommend the termie chappy, since you're only looking to buff that specific squad anyway and you're guaranteed to have Zealot unlike a libby which would be even cheaper but may not do much to help your termie squad.

-TACTICAL TERMIES: a small 5 man squad with a CML will complement your shooty IG units nicely, stick Lysander in front to soak up wounds (the IF trait will buff their storm bolters too), they can still hold their own in CC with a handful of PFs. If you have the points to spare, you can go with a 10-man combat-squadded unit as well.

DEPLOYMENT: I like your idea of keeping the termies blended in with your IG squads instead of sending them up front to get mowed down; it'll force your enemy to think twice about assaulting your line, and this is where the tactical termies will be a bit more flexible, you can keep shooting while the enemy is at bay and still punch face when they get close. Placement will be key, you want to keep them far enough from the front to avoid getting targeted (from shooting or assault) but close enough to provide support if your IG lines end up getting assaulted. In your specific case you want them to be a true counter-assault unit, let the IG bear the brunt of the initial enemy assault, then charge with the terminators for maximum attacks and strength.

If you wanna stick with SM termies, I would recommend tactical termies (with CML) with Lysander soaking wounds and the IF trait, you can throw in a cheap squad of scouts for mandatory troop choice. The librarian with TDA and SS is not a bad choice if you can see a role for him that will blend in well with the rest of your army. If you go the assault termie route, I'd go with BT trait and a termie chaplain, they'll have a bit more mobility via crusader, and better psykic attack resistance (adamantium will).

If I may suggest an alternative while still keeping termies: I think Dark Angels would be an even better "Terminator-based" ally than vanilla marines.

For 120pts you can have a termie libby with Prescience and a 3++ (via displacer field) and then you have your choice of:

-regular DW terminators which you can keep all shooty or throw some TH/SS in there, you also have access to the plasma cannon

-DW command squad (they probably wouldn't offer much more than a regular DW termie squad as an ally choice) but they would allow you to take another squad of DW termies in the elite slot since they're an HQ choice (DA termies cannot combat-squad)

-DW Knights, your perfect bargain assault unit (225pts for a 5-man squad), they have resilience (2+, 3++, T5), retain initiative, high strength, and a 1-turn uber-mode that will even send multi-wound bike riders packing. They don't have anything to shoot with though, so they might end up twiddling their thumbs until the enemy shows up

I think the key boost with DAs is in the Librarian with Prescience as you can use it on some of your units too and unlike his SM counterpart, you have a guaranteed choice of a good power. In either case I'd go with the Force Axe for extra strength and AP 2.

I hope this helps you make a decision. Either way, enjoy your terminators!

@ phoenix darkus

Great response, I just learned a lot about marines.

There's no reason I can't play around with some honor guard, in addition. Plenty of my buddies play marine chapters, it would be easy to proxy them in for the low price of zero dollars.

I get what you're saying about tactical terminators, good point with the extra shooting before CC occurs. I could play around with that as well.

Dark Angels are very good! I may regret not going with them, it was a tough decision. Ultimately I went with vanilla marines because of points cost. I had a buddy saying "Get DA, you get this list of things that are perfect for your army ..." and I looked, and he was right, but the points cost was so high, I was thinking "well, there goes my veterans, or my tanks, or something ..". Honestly, my IG force is not that bad, I don't need prescience and lots of buffs, because I don't have them now, and we still outshoot most other armies. I want to apply a fix to our assault weakness, but gutting my IG force doesn't seem like the thing to do, I wanna keep them strong.

Anyway, Phoenix, you made some solid points, especially with HQ choices and load-outs, I really appreciate your response, thank you very much!

Assault Cannons on Tactical Terminators can do a number on anything from Gaunts to a Land Raider

You can try adding two inquisitors to you big blob one with hammerhand psychic power and the other with prescience now you have a semi decent unit especially when you add in the inquisitors grenades too.

And you can still take your allies aswell

How much would that cost?..
Go with orks! U can have like 40 boyz with klaw nobz at same price. Just get some kff mek for 5+ survivability and march them forward. Bikes hate them, trust me.

Hmm interesting. I have been thinking about Orks as an ally for my IG to give some CC support.

Seems like quite a nice mix to me.

If your facing a CC army the Orks will come in very useful. Meanwhile if its a shooty army the Orks can spread out and advance. Meanwhile the IG sit back at range and fire.

For two inqusitors with 1 psychic power each and a force sword is 110pts
Then you can add all kinds on top of that :-)
Its an easy way of getting stubborn ld10 blobs as well

Throwing my lot in with the Inquisitorial crowd.

If you're running blob guard, throw a Mastery 1 Xenos Inquisitor in with rad/psychotroke grenades. This turns your guardsmen INTO your anti-CC unit. Suddenly anyone charging you has -1T and a 1/3 chance of not attacking at all, on top of eating IG overwatch (prescienced, of course). And you're re-rolling to hit in CC. Toss in a second psyker Inquisitor for guarenteed Hammerhand and you've got S4 Guardsmen.

 scommy wrote:
Hmm interesting. I have been thinking about Orks as an ally for my IG to give some CC support.

Seems like quite a nice mix to me.

If your facing a CC army the Orks will come in very useful. Meanwhile if its a shooty army the Orks can spread out and advance. Meanwhile the IG sit back at range and fire.

Yep, just don't forget - orkses ain't really great against dedicated mellee deathstars (don't expect to beat 600 pts with 170 pts boyz alone) but since when are bikes dedicated mellee anywayz? However, orkses are quite nice shooters with s4 18' assault 2 regular shootas + s5 36' assault 3 bigshootas and are dangerous in mellee if you pose them correctly. Also they're capable of pushing forward - which ig usually ain't great at.
I play orkses and have ig allies who sit back in ruins and act as point holders with some nice range support in face of ac/lc vets, comsquad with master of ordnance and leman russ exterminator with hb sponsons and pask (i'm thinking of adding marbo!). I'm pretty happy with that combination.
The interesting thing might be that Mek with a kff can give 5+ cover to ig infantry either (but not to vehicles)! So you might even be able to run midfield and endure more fire there if needed; for example, to push enemy from his points or to take midfield points if there are such. It even opens possibilities to some limited offensive ig-blob play with more bodies than azrael would have given u. Besides, you can have those cheezy inquisitors at the same time anywayz.
Add some boyz to bauble wrap your ig bauble-wrap so you can bauble-wrap while you bauble-wrap! U can even take grots to make a tripple bauble-wrap!
Also orkses are gona be buffed soon - heard they're recieving a free 6+ fnp and a point cost decrease (not confirmed though). And i'm not quite sure if WAAAAAAAAAGH would work if orkses are allied detachment. But i'd play it definitely.

I was going to recommend the inquisitor as well.

As others mentioned xeno with mastery level 1 psyker. Gives a blob ld10 with stubborn and if you go with prescience allows you to reroll all to hit rolls. For first and second turn while your opponent is out of lasgun range use the prescience on your tanks. Russes and artillery rerolling to hit is pretty deadly.

Then I would recommend giving the inquisitor rad grenades. This makes the enemies toughness -1 in close combat. Making your guardsmen now wound a lot easier.

Just tested the inquisitor out the other day against my nids buddy and I basically would pick off his synapse creatures then anything that got close, wasn't fearless, and came near my line was charged by guardsmen. Yes my guardsmen charged nids. And when my 15 man guardsmen plus inquisitor squad swept a squad of 20 gargoyles my opponent actually said he was afraid to charge my guardsmen.

Rerolling to hits(even with shooting and cc) and then being able to wound more easily in cc really made my guardsmen a lot better.

And what's good with the inquisitors is you can take just them. You don't have to take any other troop tax or what not.

I've tried out inquisitor with 50 man conscripts. They're totally beating face with those grenades. Imagine what's gona happen when you use him with guards and not conscripts! U no longer need no anti-charge unless this inquisitor can be taken down by barrage or precision shots.