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Here is my idea. I put in as many Tactical Squads as I can into a list and combat squad them. I created so many scoring units that it'll be hard for the opponent to wipe them all out if I have, say, a ADL. Is this idea completely without merit or is it one of those things that might work depending on mission/match up?

From my anecdotal evidence, this has not worked well against my BA historically. I can't imagine how it would work vs Tau or Eldar or worse yet, Demons. It might well work against other shooty marines because meq lists don't have the throw weight of Xenos.

Your opponent has around 5 turns to wipe these units up, and you are not doing much in return with so much invested in tactical marines.

None of the top armies care about the ADL at all. The ADL for marines is really kind of meh since Demons are HTH and Tau can ignore cover and Eldar use weight of fire. Tau have weight of fire going on as well.

A friend tried something similar against my Daemons. In an 1850 point game, he fielded almost an entire company of bolter spam and rocket launchers (6 tac squads, 3 devastators, all combat squadded so as to provide what he referred to as 'crumple zones' of disposable troops.)

It did almost nothing to my not-at-all-optimized list.

In this game, you must actively reduce your opponent's offensive capacity, because no list can withstand 5 turns of pounding from a full list.

Mmm, thought so. Space Marines suffer from from being costed like their T and saves actually matter. I was hoping there was some way to do it since I have like 60 of them but I guess it was wishful thinking.

Thanks for the quick replies!

Maybe if you backed them up with something else cheap, like Bolter Preds. Maybe a cheapo Captain and a plain Dreadnought?

I'm thinking adding in some bigger stuff will make people think they are the threats. Your opponent will assume that the marines will go squish by themselves and focus on making fun of your "tanks by shooting them to pieces.

If you kit out the squads right you could actually use them tactically against pretty much anything really. How much damage does a Lascannon do? Enough. Also. Signums.

darkcloak wrote:
Maybe if you backed them up with something else cheap, like Bolter Preds. Maybe a cheapo Captain and a plain Dreadnought?

I'm thinking adding in some bigger stuff will make people think they are the threats. Your opponent will assume that the marines will go squish by themselves and focus on making fun of your "tanks by shooting them to pieces.

If you kit out the squads right you could actually use them tactically against pretty much anything really. How much damage does a Lascannon do? Enough. Also. Signums.

Bolter preds, cheapo captain, and dreads can be largely ignored. Calculate how many single lascannon shots it takes to kill a single riptide or wave serpent. The answer is that the lascannon does not do nearly enough damage.

So they shoot your troops and you make use of the other units. Meh, it isn't exactly a competitive idea. Mostly just for fun I imagine, if you had that many marines, why not?


Play an all infantry battle!

I think this concept would work better with troops that weren't as dead-weighty as tac marines. For as many people that claim they aren't overcosted still at 14 pts, they sure don't play like 14 pt models in my experience, much less 16 from 5th. Of course. that's why I didn't use ANY tac marines in 5th.

Your plan has merit, but I'd still make sure you have a couple of extra units in the army that are heavy hitters.

Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now.

The ADL is an okay idea, but I think that rhinos or drop pods are a far MORE effective way to spam the tac squads.

Especially out of a dedicated transport, tactical squad spam can be really effective. I play Salamanders, and routinely deploy my squads out of pods in such a way that one squad can pop a dedicated transport, while the other side roasts the disembarking passengers with a flamer. Don't forget that splitting down into two squads means EACH squad can throw a grenade! Generally I like to deploy with one squad being the 'assault' squad and one squad holding the heavy weapon. This allows the possibility of one squad screening the other.

I cram 3-4 tactical squads into most of my tourney lists, so if you'd like to ask me any questions about how I do it, feel free to PM me! I'd be happy to lend a hand!

"Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now. "

I'd love to play in your meta instead of mine. I'll take my chances against marine players trying to do heavy lifting with tacticals. I have no respect for them and still don't even after the 6th ed book. I can't argue with turn 4/5 tabling by Eldar/Tau. Even with BA, I have never been tabled by an meq list. Ever. They just don't have the firepower.

Drop pod shenanigans from non-Space Cheese lists are something the BA are still good at cleaning up.

Martel732 wrote:
"Still, the tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my Space Marine armies. I was winning tournies with them before they got dropped in cost, and I'm still doing pretty well now. "

I'd love to play in your meta instead of mine. I'll take my chances against marine players trying to do heavy lifting with tacticals. I have no respect for them and still don't even after the 6th ed book. I can't argue with turn 4/5 tabling by Eldar/Tau. Even with BA, I have never been tabled by an meq list. Ever. They just don't have the firepower.

Well scoot on down to Carbondale, Illinois, and we'll have ourselves a game! Can't guarantee a tabling, but I'm pretty sure I can work those 14 points like a Roman orchard slave.

Yeah... no way I'm travelling that far to play 40K lol. I've even made White Scar lists work for it with BA. No amount of people trying to equate the new marine book with Eldar/Tau makes it true. I haven't been manhandled by lists this bad since 2nd. The point-click-die factor in these Xeno lists is crazy. And FMC circus from demons is an auto lose for BA.

The thing is that when BA assault tac marines, the tac marines die, but when BA assault grey hunters, the BA die now. So.. yeah.

If a list forces 50 meq saves per turn, which is not even that hard for Eldar, they will kill over 80 meq by turn 5. There's no way to spam enough in the face of that.

Roman Orchard Slave.

If that didn't make you look sideways at your paint desk I don't know what will!

Oh, and it's still hard to kill BA with boltguns. Unfortunately, Xenos aren't using boltguns.

Hmm, interesting point Jimsolo. The only reason I went with a ADL is because I only own two Rhinos and a Drop Pod. Maybe putting a "Go screw some jerks up" squad into them and drive up the board? Also, a Master of the Forge could be a useful HQ since he can buff area terrain to be as good as an ADL so I can set up a forward base.

I have seen it work.

A friend of mine plays Salamanders and is using mostly tacticals and razorbacks in a 1500 point list. He smashed by Black Legion list soundly a few weeks ago with all his flamer and melta weapons. I had a hard time getting at all his squads.

That said, I think this would have been a different game at 2,000 points. It seems to me that MSU marines work better at lower points levels.

It's one of those ideas that seems logical on paper but doesn't carry much weight. I know several people who've tried it, but none of them win consistently with it. When I actually played against lists like that, my basilisks & russes made *very* short work of them.

I tried it once as BA (with 16pt marines). Threw together a list quickly and thought - ahhhh he wont be expecting me to spam tacs and devs with loads of mls.
Played against eldars last dex, which wasnt anywhere near as competative as the current dex.
He ran karendras in a scorp squad, with his rerollable 2++ due to farseer in the squad (he cant do that this dex)
2 wraith lords
Avatar
3 warwalker squadrons
Some other irrelavent stuff.
I died. My pride died! Everything died. It was like playing CoD MW3 on waves and being armed with only an m14 and no flashbangs as 4 juggernaughts approached you. I did nothing! The worst loss I have ever suffered and it is burned into my memory!


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Funny thing is, if id gone with my mass jp squads with hidden fists (which I almost always do if not spamming av13), I would have ripped apart his mcs and karandras unit and the game would have been mine. Shows that trying to wrong foot the opponent can end up with you wrong footing yourself!

I've been running an army based around mass tacticals (usually 40 tacs at 1500) with good levels of success both before and after the new dex. Here are a few things I've noticed (and note that this is in a casual meta,so no eldar/tau/demons cheese combos, but the observations are still relevant):

- One on one, tactical squad will lose in a firefight or CC with most other troop squads of equivalent points, so you really need to focus on the force concentration game. Getting a good alpha strike, taking out big threats fast and bringing your entire army against a section of their's is essential. To this end, you'll need either Drop Pods or faster-than-normal rhinos (WS with Khan or RG for scout), the idea being that you can get a good-strength force in the enemy's face, at only one point in their line, by turn 2 at the latest.

- Like any other unit, tactical squads are never going to be able to win a game on their own. You need other units as well. The key is to make sure you cover the weakness of tactical squads, rather than bringing more of the same. Tacticals generally lack anti-tank abilities, but can handle infantry well with mass bolters.For Heavy Support, you'll be wanting either Annihilator Predators (if you're running Rhinos) or lascannon devs (if using pods). TFCs, while great, are not as good here as you already have enough anti-infantry small arms (although if you see a lot of Xenos and lack AP4, they're a good buy). The next thing to look at is elites, and the pick there is probably Sternguard if you're using pods, throw a couple of meltas/combis on then drop and pop. After the combis have slagged a tank, you can then use them as Tacticals+1 against infantry.

- It's also worth bringing some Assault Marines if you are using pods, they can make a nice second wave for a DP assault. Drop them behind the pods for cover, then charge against targets that are either weak enough to be taken in 2 rounds or are posing a threat to the tacs and would be better off tied up.

- Combat sqadding is not as useful out of pods in most cases, it's better to keep them together as it reduces the likeliness of giving up First Blood. Conversely, CS is nice inside Rhinos as you can drop one squad out to shoot while still keeping half inside the metal box, giving you a nice balance between firepower and mobility/defence.

- Similarly to the first point, you need to pick your fights. Tacticals are never going to win a firefight with a Riptide, Dire Avenger squad or 50-man IG blob with an Inquistor. In cases where you are clearly outmatched, either bring more squads into the fray or just avoid the threats, using terrain and pods/rhino hulls to provide cover or block line of sight.

"Tacticals are never going to win a firefight with a Riptide, Dire Avenger squad or 50-man IG blob with an Inquistor."

The fact that they can't compete against two other troop types is pretty damning in my book.

If you aren't playing against Eldar/Tau/Demons, the I don't feel that your list is really being put through the paces.

Legion can pull it off I think as an all comers in 2500pts note I am pulling this off the top of my head.
5 20 man tacticals with Vexilla (I equip the sgt with melta bombs and a power weapon) for 275 (1375)
5 Apothecaries (maybe with auspix if points are there) 225
3 Masters of Signal 255
3 Heavy Weapon support Squads with auspix and missile launchers and flak missiles(either 5 or 10 man depending on the points). 600 ish I think(I don't use them very often, preferring my Sicarians and Culverines)
Leaves you with 45 points to spend on extra gear.
So far it has:
100 bolter marines with feel no pain(and whatever their Legion traits are)
15 missile launchers with BS5(see master of signal) with flakk and intercept options
3 Masters of signal(captain stats roughly) who each can either call in orbital bombardment or buff their accompanying squad to BS5.

Too many fun toys in Heresy to use this admittingly boring spam list but I think it would do well. While Tactical squads are bland and general, in this format they would be a bit more resilient and able to do something once they get wherever they are going. An opponent will have to concentrate fire on something leaving the rest unscathed. I might try this for the hell of it something with proxies(I have no need of more than 30 bolter marines, let alone a hundred) and note I don't play with super heavies on the field for casual games so no D weapons to worry about.

I feel that there are many 2500 pt lists that can blow them off the table. Another flaw with that idea is that MLs as the main heavy is a horrible idea. MLs are to be avoided in general.

Tac squad have always been terrible. GW costs versatility very highly apparently, but when you kinda stink at everything, that is not versatility, its simply bad.

Marines now have a great troop in bikes, and a fairly decent one in scouts, use those instead. The only thing tacticals bring is being able to be in a drop pod. Too bad they can`t take 2x special weapons, as of now, they have a bit too low damage output on the drop.

Dark angels can probably do marine spam the best. Bolter banner takes their damage output to very good levels. Something like a crusader with command squad + bolter banner, then 4-6x tac squads in rhinos and a void shield generator doesn`t sound totally terrible.

I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.

SBG wrote:
I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.

Against Tau, Grey Hunters are no better than tac marines because you will never get to use your HTH tech.


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Martel732 wrote:

SBG wrote:
I tried running 40 grey hunters, a wolf lord, 2 Lone Wolves and 6 Long Fangs against a non-optimized Tau list, and got smashed. Limited experience, but I didn't kill even one squad. I think a Lascannon took out one crisis suit all game.

Against Tau, Grey Hunters are no better than tac marines because you will never get to use your HTH tech.

"GW costs versatility very highly apparently, but when you kinda stink at everything, that is not versatility, its simply bad."

Nothing more true has ever been written on Dakka. Ever.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Mmm, thought so. Space Marines suffer from from being costed like their T and saves actually matter. I was hoping there was some way to do it since I have like 60 of them but I guess it was wishful thinking.

Thanks for the quick replies!

This. The game is about dropping 2+ to wound and nosave pie plates on the enemy. In other words, we've been using D weapons for fething ages

I remember a CSM 2K points list with over 100 Marines in it from somewhere. Seemed hilarious to just drown your foe in power armour.

I took a list with 45 Tactical Marines and 5 Rhinos to a tournament once with 6th Ed CA, I got absolutely mullered. I've played Mechanized Marines for almost every game up until August from January and I had poor results consistently. After a lot of inner thinking after the C:SM release my final stop in my thought process was the realization that inevitably you reach a point where Bikes is just the better option.

Long story short, Tactical Rhino Rush is garbage against competitive lists. You automatically give up First Blood most of the time, you've wasted countless points on an infantry core that's only decent merit is its ability to put a bunch of wounds on infantry at close range whom are just fodder for MC's and MEQ killers which every new Codex has in spades.

And now we have the idiocy of Bike Squadrons which are either almost the same price or not much more and have a bazillion advantages over Tacs, not at least limited to the fact they can pull off an absurd amount of AP2 fire at 18'' with increased mobility to boot.

Bikes are such an unsatisfying way to build marines. I feel like its Codex: Biker Gang, not Codex: Space Marines.