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S.K.Ren,
A common mistake I see with the Void Shield is the concept that the Hit's are being resolved against something physical, understandable seeing the Narrative involved is exactly that - the shot instead hit's the wall between the firing unit and the targeted unit in a huge display of fireworks. However, when we get to the core of how Rules function, we come to learn that the Narrative has zero say in the matter. All that matters is the fundamentals that make up Rules as Written, and the verbiage found within the Rule itself, everything else is simply ignored as 'fluff' or 'filler' designed to give us more then a bunch of equations and charts.

In this case we have a Special Rule that can only trigger after Hits are calculated.

The rule clearly says it takes the hit. It doesn't matter if it has no model, it is an AV12 entity that takes the hit in place of anything within it's area of protection. It is still singular and thus only takes one hit from a blast template.

So an assault 20 weapon shoots at a unit in the shield and hits with every shot, are you claiming the Void Shield takes a single hit?

The void shield is not a model. Barrage weapons only generate 1 hit PER MODEL UNDER THE MARKER, a model is a well defined term in the rulers. The shield does not fit this definition nor are we told the shield is treated as a model. So you're basically making up a load of rules for blast weapon hits out of thin air. If your interpretation requires you making lots of rules up out of thin air it is probably not the correct one.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rule clearly says it takes the hit. It doesn't matter if it has no model, it is an AV12 entity that takes the hit in place of anything within it's area of protection. It is still singular and thus only takes one hit from a blast template.

So an assault 20 weapon shoots at a unit in the shield and hits with every shot, are you claiming the Void Shield takes a single hit?

The void shield is not a model. Barrage weapons only generate 1 hit PER MODEL UNDER THE MARKER, a model is a well defined term in the rulers. The shield does not fit this definition nor are we told the shield is treated as a model. So you're basically making up a load of rules for blast weapon hits out of thin air. If your interpretation requires you making lots of rules up out of thin air it is probably not the correct one.

An Assault 20 weapon that hit 20 times is A) Not a blast weapon and B) It is 20 separate shots. If they all hit that's 20 hits on the Void Shield, if the Shield Drops midway then the remainder are resolved against the original target. A blast weapon (typically) is still only 1 shot and by the RAW of the wordings on the Void Shield entries it replaces the original unit as the receiver of the attack(Keyword: Instead). I'm not saying that Blast weapon only generates 1 hit, I'm saying a blast template only generates 1 hit. If a IG Executioner takes a shot at a unit under a Void Shield and all 3 Blasts hit something, that's 3 hits against the shield.

 S.K.Ren wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rule clearly says it takes the hit. It doesn't matter if it has no model, it is an AV12 entity that takes the hit in place of anything within it's area of protection. It is still singular and thus only takes one hit from a blast template.

So an assault 20 weapon shoots at a unit in the shield and hits with every shot, are you claiming the Void Shield takes a single hit?

The void shield is not a model. Barrage weapons only generate 1 hit PER MODEL UNDER THE MARKER, a model is a well defined term in the rulers. The shield does not fit this definition nor are we told the shield is treated as a model. So you're basically making up a load of rules for blast weapon hits out of thin air. If your interpretation requires you making lots of rules up out of thin air it is probably not the correct one.

An Assault 20 weapon that hit 20 times is A) Not a blast weapon and B) It is 20 separate shots. If they all hit that's 20 hits on the Void Shield, if the Shield Drops midway then the remainder are resolved against the original target. A blast weapon (typically) is still only 1 shot and by the RAW of the wordings on the Void Shield entries. I'm not saying as Blast weapon only generates 1 hit, I'm saying a blast template only generates 1 hit. If a IG Executioner takes a shot at a unit under a Void Shield and all 3 Blasts hit something, that's 3 hits against the shield.

It is 1 shooting attack though, where does the void shield rules reference shots? Also where are you getting the restriction of 1 shot = 1 hit for a void shield? What about Tesla rolling a 6 to hit is that 3 or 1 hit (it is 1 gak after all).

Claiming RaW whilst making rules up out of thin air is not a great stance to take. Blast weapons only generate hits from counting models under the template. If you're not doing that the blast weapon causes no hits, unless you have specific permission to resolve a blast template in a different way. If so please post it because I see nothing about blasts in the void shield rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It is simple again: we are NOT transferring Hits. The Special Rule makes the template Hit. It tells you so. (Hope i don't need to quote again)
What happens when that dice Rolls "HIT" for a template? The Hit is assigned to the void shield. AV12 "vehicle" if you want...But you can't explain things with examples, we have to follow RAW here.

I'll ask one more time if you refuse to answer again I'll take that as you conceding.

How many hits does the blast marker cause on the shield? What model(s) have you counted to reach that number?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That step where you place the template and count hits does not happen.

Then the blast marker causes no hits. Counting the models under the blast marker is the ONLY way a blast marker causes hits. In your interpretation the shields are immune to all blast and template weapons.

You seem stuck at the "blast template generates hits" part.
You DO count models under the template. But then the SR makes that a hit on the shield. Others can read the RAW, I don't understand why you don't understand the rule? :/
The Shooting attack is redirected as per RAW, not hits. But the template has to cover models for the attack to transfer. Wether 2 or 10. That attack is resolved on the shield. No placing a" second" template, just resolving a hit the SR has defined you have.
Answered?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
S.K.Ren,
A common mistake I see with the Void Shield is the concept that the Hit's are being resolved against something physical, understandable seeing the Narrative involved is exactly that - the shot instead hit's the wall between the firing unit and the targeted unit in a huge display of fireworks. However, when we get to the core of how Rules function, we come to learn that the Narrative has zero say in the matter. All that matters is the fundamentals that make up Rules as Written, and the verbiage found within the Rule itself, everything else is simply ignored as 'fluff' or 'filler' designed to give us more then a bunch of equations and charts.

In this case we have a Special Rule that can only trigger after Hits are calculated.

That is correct, and that rule transfers the shooting attack: the one Vindicator Shell, to the shield and -per RAW- scores a hit for you to resolve. (A Hit)

Pertinent Rules:
Building Upgrade: Void Shield - Stronghold Assault p120 Digital Version

Projected Void Shields - Stronghold Assault pp191-194 Digital Version.

Blast Markers And Templates - BRB p6


Lets look at the Building Upgrade first.

Ok, I will concede that the Building Upgrade works on a per hit basis.

Now a look at the Projected Void Shields

This time it's not the Hits that are being intercepted but the Attack. In this case my point still stands as the Void Shield is only a single entity. Its allowed to be hit by its own rule which overrides the hit/model restriction of blast markers.

That is indeed completely clear. The building upgrade by RAW takes 5 hits, but RAW on projections are clear too.

Now my question is: how many pts for the building upgrade & per shield projection? Does it corrolate as better?

I personally love the Projected Shields. With a Lv3 Shield Generator you are paying 1+ 33 per Shield compared to 50 points for the Lv1 version or 1+37 points for Lv2. The building upgrade is 25 points making it the cheapest but you can only have one per building section, you have to buy separately for each section you want it on, and it suffers many more hits if you have guys on the battlements.

You seem stuck at the "blast template generates hits" part.
You DO count models under the template. But then the SR makes that a hit on the shield. Others can read the RAW, I don't understand why you don't understand the rule? :/

Why does the special rule restrict it to 1 hit. That is a claim you've made that there is a rule limited to blast weapons that mean a shooting attack can only put 1 hit on the shield. Yet other shooting attacks generate the number of hits that they normally generate. Yet you don't see the inconsistency. You have arbitrarily decided on 1 hit per blast marker with absolutelty no rules support.

The bolded is correct yet you still seem incapable of reading the RaW. Making up arbitrary numbers of hits caused by blast weapons and completely ignoring the rules on how blast weapons generate hits is not RaW. Again I have to point out if your interpretation requires you to make up arbitrary rules out of thin air you can not claim it to be RaW.

 S.K.Ren wrote:
This time it's not the Hits that are being intercepted but the Attack. In this case my point still stands as the Void Shield is only a single entity. Its allowed to be hit by its own rule which overrides the hit/model restriction of blast markers.

By your logic ANY single weapon fired at the shield would only ever score one hit, regardless of the profile, due to the fact that it is only one "attack" That reasoning breaks void shields.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. A shooting attack is an attack made with a ranged weapon using it's profile. Nowhere have I said that an attack only generates one hit, EVER.

What I've said is you only generate one hit per blast marker (as I've more recently stated this only applies with projected Void Shields as the Building upgrades transfers hits scored against units under the Void Shield) against a Void Shield as the Void Shield is only one entity, its own rule allows it to be hit and as long as the Void Shield is up, the original units don't actually get hits scored against them.

If a ranged weapon profile is Heavy 2, Blast and both blasts hit a unit under a projected void shield, then both blasts instead hit the Void Shield generating 1 hit per blast for a total of 2 hits.

 S.K.Ren wrote:
If a ranged weapon profile is Heavy 2, Blast and both blasts hit a unit under a projected void shield, then both blasts instead hit the Void Shield generating 1 hit per blast for a total of 2 hits.

How is this any different than a single blast generating two hits and transferring both of them to the void shield? You're inventing this weird rule that a blast weapon can have a binary hit/no-hit result and discard all of the "extra" hits.

The Building upgrade explicitly states that it transfers scored hits to the shield. This follows how you've been interpreting the rules, which is fine.

The Projected Void Shields preempts hits by transferring the attack. It no longer hits the units inside the shield and instead hits the shield itself, auto-hitting in fact. I don't understand why this is hard to look at. It doesn't matter if its a Blast or an Apocalyptic Large Blast, if there is only one thing to hit, you only hit it once per marker. The one thing to hit is the Void Shield.

 S.K.Ren wrote:
It no longer hits the units inside the shield and instead hits the shield itself, auto-hitting in fact.

So I don't place the template and roll scatter dice? I just declare that I'm shooting at a target within the void shield and roll penetration? Can you cite a rule for this?

It doesn't matter if its a Blast or an Apocalyptic Large Blast, if there is only one thing to hit, you only hit it once per marker.

There is no such rule. It just happens to be the case that in normal gameplay a single blast template can only generate one hit against a single-model unit, but there is no general rule that makes it an absolute fact. If you somehow manage to generate more than one hit (for example, by moving multiple hits from another unit onto it) then you resolve all of those hits normally.

Peregrine,
I can think of a few situations where it is possible to generate multiple Hits on each individual model under the Blast Marker, such as the Pulse Sub-munitions rules produced by forgeworld.

 Peregrine wrote:

So I don't place the template and roll scatter dice? I just declare that I'm shooting at a target within the void shield and roll penetration? Can you cite a rule for this?

There is no such rule. It just happens to be the case that in normal gameplay a single blast template can only generate one hit against a single-model unit, but there is no general rule that makes it an absolute fact. If you somehow manage to generate more than one hit (for example, by moving multiple hits from another unit onto it) then you resolve all of those hits normally.

Do you make a habit of ignoring half of what people say? If an shooting attack from outside the void shield bubble hits a target inside the void shield bubble, it (the attack) instead hits the void shield. It does not say:

Hits from an attack instead hit the shield
or
Hits against units instead hit the void shield

It says an attack that hits something in the bubble instead hits the Void Shield. You check to see if it hits something, if it does, you then proceed with the attack as if you had just hit the void shield. How many hits? I say 1, but it sure as hell has nothing to do with the unit you hit under it. If you have multiple shots coming from the same attack you might take down all the shields before you're done resolving hits. It is in this case only that the units you checked to see if you hit is relevant. It is up to the player to keep track of this and the order in which the attacks were resolved to determine which hits go through.

Furthermore if a weapon allows you to hit multiple times with a single Blast template that is a special rule of the weapon and has nothing to do with the actual rule for Blast.

 S.K.Ren wrote:
If an shooting attack from outside the void shield bubble hits a target inside the void shield bubble, it (the attack) instead hits the void shield.

Exactly. If the attack hits five times then five hits instead hit the void shield. Each model hit by the template triggers a separate instance of "if the attack hits, it instead hits the void shield" and transfers its single hit to the void shield. You can't just invent a new rule that a weapon that fires multiple shots makes multiple attacks (rather than a single shooting attack with multiple shots), but a blast weapon that hits multiple models is all one "attack".

but it sure as hell has nothing to do with the unit you hit under it.

That is absolutely false. The only way to determine whether or not a blast weapon hits is to generate hits based on the number of models under the template.

Furthermore if a weapon allows you to hit multiple times with a single Blast template that is a special rule of the weapon and has nothing to do with the actual rule for Blast.

Neither does your claim that blast weapons can only hit a given "thing" once per blast.

I would say that 'shot' is the most reasonable way of reading the word attack in the void shield rule. The next most reasonable, as has been pointed out, would be that an attack refers to all of the shots from some weapon in one turn. I see the next most reasonable as being attack means all of the shooting from a unit in one turn.

I think that attack meaning hit is the least reasonable way to read it of any of these options. This is just opinion, but if you say attack=hit is the most reasonable way, well that's only option too.

Aside from that you really are having (or pretending to have) a really hard time understanding our argument. I will attempt to explain it again. The blast hits models in a unit. The 'attack' is now transferred to the void shield and automatically hits it. How many times does it hit it? We aren't explicitly told, but the phrasing seems to imply the singular.

I think it would be helpful if you could explain your side properly, (just your side, not why my side is wrong). For some reason the 'transfer hits' camp seems to be the assumed default and the 'transfer shots' position is carrying the entire burden of proof.

very well, a reasonable request.

blast markers can only ever generate a number of hits = to the number of models under the template after scatter.

void shields are not models and cannot intercept the hits to the models under the template until they have been generated.

void shields have a rule within them that transfers remaining hits, after all re-directed hits have been resolved back to the unit that was orriginally targeted.

I understand where your trying to come from with it, but your arguement is weak and is not how void shields work.

the building ones are easier to understand as it is a single entity taking the orriginal hit so it will in 9/10 cases be a transferance of a single hit to the shields.

the same is for vehicles, case and point titans.

void shield projections are a new thing, the void shield rules and effects are a bit funky when you try to protect infantry.

there is nothing within the void shield rules that would override the generation of the hits scored from a blast marker, there is likewise nothing there that states that you treat a void shield as a new 'target' for the attack, only that the hits are transfered to the shield.

The 'attack' is now transferred to the void shield and automatically hits it. How many times does it hit it? We aren't explicitly told, but the phrasing seems to imply the singular.

Emphasis mine. The bolded part is where you are making an assumption that breaks the blast marker rules and claiming it to be RaW.

I think it would be helpful if you could explain your side properly, (just your side, not why my side is wrong). For some reason the 'transfer hits' camp seems to be the assumed default and the 'transfer shots' position is carrying the entire burden of proof.

Well it tells you that you have to transfer and attack based on whether it hits. So if I have an assault 20 gun I roll 20 dice and count the hits. Just as with a blast template I count the models under the template to see if I hit and to work out how many times I hit.

So then we have a choice do we say 1 hit per attack in which case it is 1 hit for the Assault 20 weapon and 1 hit for the blast weapon.

Or do we simply transfer all the hits. The rest of the VSP rules are worded such that the VS can take multiple hits so the first option contradicts that. Leaving us with the second option.

What you're trying to claim is that blast weapons cause hits on entities. They don't. An assault 20 weapon determines how many hits it has by rolling 20 to hit dice and comparing them to the to hit roll required. A blast marker determines how many hits it has by scattering and counting the MODELs underneath it. You're claiming permission to intercept one to hit process once we know we have at least 1 hit but not the other. This is contradictory. Either that or you are claiming the VS counts as a model which again is not supported by the rules. The VS is not a model or an entity it is simply a special rule that says "did you hit my unit? Then you have to get through AV12 first". It is not a separate entity or unit to the unit it.

Essentially it is not that we don't understand your argument it is in fact that you don't understand it. Because you're making leaps unsupported by rules and breaking rules left right and centre whilst doing it. We're just trying to help you understand that.

The target is still the unit, in the case of blasts its the target that matters here, If we said the blast targets the void shield instead I would say do you have LOS to that??? You HIT the void shield but the blast still TARGETS the unit. The hits are a later entity which are calculated by placing the blast over a target, and counting the models beneath. This case the hits are transferred to the VS, but the blast target and calculating hits remains.

For the rules to function, blasts must calculate hits from the target unit as normal, as we can not consider the VS to be the target, because of LOS and all that.

But yes I see where the rules are a bit blerghy for multiple model units in this case.
And no one likes D Weapons
*She says with her titan in the mail *

In order to transfer the attack you need to hit the unit.

When you transfer the attack, you must transfer the whole attack. Not just part of it. This would include multiple hits that the attack has caused.

To transfer a single hit only from a blast follows no rules at all.

 Peregrine wrote:

 S.K.Ren wrote:
If a ranged weapon profile is Heavy 2, Blast and both blasts hit a unit under a projected void shield, then both blasts instead hit the Void Shield generating 1 hit per blast for a total of 2 hits.

How is this any different than a single blast generating two hits and transferring both of them to the void shield? You're inventing this weird rule that a blast weapon can have a binary hit/no-hit result and discard all of the "extra" hits.

That is probably the best way to describe it, yes: The Special Rule for Void Relays does indeed make it a binary hit for the *Shooting attack* you are using, yes

 nutty_nutter wrote:
there is nothing within the void shield rules that would override the generation of the hits scored from a blast marker, there is likewise nothing there that states that you treat a void shield as a new 'target' for the attack, only that the hits are transfered to the shield.

I would really disagree with that statement:


Again: The hits are NOT transferred to the shield, no. The Shooting attack is: Simple RaW. It does not say you "target the shield", it says you hit the shield. What happens when you hit the shield? You move on to step 2 and Armour Penetration.

Building Rule:"Whilst a building has a void shield, any hits scored by shooting attacks against the building, models embarked within it or upon its battlements will instead hit the void shield."

Yes, you transfer hits: because it's the RaW

 FlingitNow wrote:
Essentially it is not that we don't understand your argument it is in fact that you don't understand it. Because you're making leaps unsupported by rules and breaking rules left right and centre whilst doing it. We're just trying to help you understand that.

I don't believe i'm making any leaps or new rules. I'm reading the one Special Rule that explains how to resolve an attack and following the steps for it. I also believe that if multiple hits are transferred from a template: that is not following the RaW.

That is probably the best way to describe it, yes: The Special Rule for Void Relays does indeed make it a binary hit for the *Shooting attack* you are using, yes

So you're claiming that any unit shooting at a unit covered by VSP can only cause 1 hit. Because the VSP rules disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't believe i'm making any leaps or new rules. I'm reading the one Special Rule that explains how to resolve an attack and following the steps for it. I also believe that if multiple hits are transferred from a template: that is not following the RaW.

So weapon A does 20 hits on a unit and Weapon B does 9. Weapon A is an assault 20 gun weapon B is a blast weapon. Please point to the rules that make you treat those hits differently.

 Nem wrote:
The target is still the unit, in the case of blasts its the target that matters here, If we said the blast targets the void shield instead I would say do you have LOS to that??? You HIT the void shield but the blast still TARGETS the unit. The hits are a later entity which are calculated by placing the blast over a target, and counting the models beneath. This case the hits are transferred to the VS, but the blast target and calculating hits remains.

For the rules to function, blasts must calculate hits from the target unit as normal, as we can not consider the VS to be the target, because of LOS and all that.

I fully agree with all of that, apart from "This case the hits are transferred to the VS, but the blast target and calculating hits remains."
Calculating and blast remains, yes: You count up the hits and have successfully performed Step 1 of your shooting attack.

Then, before Step 2 and Wounding the models, a Special Rule comes in. Quoting yet again: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"

So, you basically REPLACE that Step 1, with a Step 1 that the Special Rule defines for you: A hit of your weapon on the VS so you may go to Step 2 and Armour Penetration.

So trying to simplify this as much as possible:

Normal Shooting:

Shooting at a target in the shield:


Does that make it any easier?
After having read the RaW, i just cannot agree with just transferring hits. The Rule for building says it explicitly, but the Relay rule does not.

Transferring hits is the only way it can work.
Transferring 1 hit simply follows no rule whatsoever.
The attack is transferred after hits are established, the attack now includes multiple hits.
Transferring only part of the attack, or inventing the number 1, is not supported by the rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So weapon A does 20 hits on a unit and Weapon B does 9. Weapon A is an assault 20 gun weapon B is a blast weapon. Please point to the rules that make you treat those hits differently.

You Hit a Rhino with both weapons, tell me how many hits you have for each?

If i blindfold you and tell you: "I fire a Vindicator shot at a Rhino, and it Hits, play from there."
How do you resolve that?

You don't need to be shown a template or anything: You start at Step 2 where you roll dice you have for Armour Pen. This RaW is the same: It tells you that you have hit the shield, work from there. If you can prove this is wrong, please do so?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Transferring hits is the only way it can work.
Transferring 1 hit simply follows no rule whatsoever.
The attack is transferred after hits are established, the attack now includes multiple hits.
Transferring only part of the attack, or inventing the number 1, is not supported by the rules.

No, because 1 RaW transfers hit, and 1 does not. It's just the rules: "shooting attack (...) hits the projected void shield". See my post above: You tell me your Plasma Gun has hit a Rhino, i expect you to roll 1 dice.

You tell me an Assault 20 weapon Hit the Rhino, i expect to see 20 Armour Pens attempts.

So you'll take multiple hits from a single attack from an assault 20 weapon, but not from a blast?
That's inconsistent with the actual rules.
Transferring 1 hit from a blast follows no rule at all.

You Hit a Rhino with both weapons, tell me how many hits you have for each?

If i blindfold you and tell you: "I fire a Vindicator shot at a Rhino, and it Hits, play from there."
How do you resolve that?

You don't need to be shown a template or anything: You start at Step 2 where you roll dice you have for Armour Pen. This RaW is the same: It tells you that you have hit the shield, work from there. If you can prove this is wrong, please do so?

The Rhino is a model, it also a unit of one model. So by that example the blast does NO hits. You have hit the shield the shield with an attack that causes 9 hits how many hits are transfered to the shield?

 FlingitNow wrote:

You Hit a Rhino with both weapons, tell me how many hits you have for each?

If i blindfold you and tell you: "I fire a Vindicator shot at a Rhino, and it Hits, play from there."
How do you resolve that?

You don't need to be shown a template or anything: You start at Step 2 where you roll dice you have for Armour Pen. This RaW is the same: It tells you that you have hit the shield, work from there. If you can prove this is wrong, please do so?

The Rhino is a model, it also a unit of one model. So by that example the blast does NO hits. You have hit the shield the shield with an attack that causes 9 hits how many hits are transfered to the shield?

No, you have not Hit the shield with an attack that causes 9 Hits. Do not apply other rules here. You have hit the unit with 9 Hits, Agreed. The Special rule transfers the attack to the shield. Now You resolve that attack to the shield.

Now, you will say "But how can i resolve an attack with a template, that is usually: Step 1-Count hits- and Step 2-Armour Pen- with my template?"
Well i have clearly told you the RaW says "Step 1-you have hit-" Now please go to step 2-Armour Pen-
In essence you SKIP step 1 of the hits. Why? Because you have already counted up hits on your target Unit