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I definitely agree with the above and might have even suggested it in a thread over in grog last year (can't remember). I don't think it'll matter much though until they switch the starter to plastic as the resin model prices (which includes all the tanks) are toxic to new players in my experience.

Yeah, I've railed against the Starter kit and the horrible GP squad packs for a while, without much success. The way the Blitz rules work, the game is at it's worst with all vanilla troops, especially for new players, since the weapons are so anemic that you could fire at each other every round and have nothing happen. Vet players could at least attempt to stack mods that the new players wouldn't know about. It also doesn't showcase one of the more unique mechanics that is having alternating squads instead of igo/yougo.

Not to mention it leaves you with a bunch of models that weren't really worth having in an actual army. If you take a look at most of the lists posted in the army building section and count the number of jagers and hunters in them, the great majority of them come up zero.

The least they could've done is had it be Mamba + 2 Jagers vs Jaguar + 2 Hunters.

EDIT: (Or they could've made the rules of the game such that vanilla models were actually useful, but they seemed unable to know how to do that, and I'm still not sure the Alpha is going to address that well enough)

ferrous wrote:

EDIT: (Or they could've made the rules of the game such that vanilla models were actually useful, but they seemed unable to know how to do that, and I'm still not sure the Alpha is going to address that well enough)

It at least was a goal, but no clue if it's working or not.

 Balance wrote:

ferrous wrote:

EDIT: (Or they could've made the rules of the game such that vanilla models were actually useful, but they seemed unable to know how to do that, and I'm still not sure the Alpha is going to address that well enough)

It at least was a goal, but no clue if it's working or not.

Yeah, I haven't looked, I lost track after more rules were added to the ACs like Split Fire, which seemed like it was poorly thought out, at least in the incarnation I saw, as it ended up making rocket packs obsolete.

That does bring up an interesting point. Initially, part of the reason for going with these rules was to allow for a leaner game that plays faster with more figs. While the EW and command options in HG are definitely positive things, there is sometimes too much of a good thing. I haven't read the latest two variants and haven't played even longer than that so I can't comment for sure but we seem to be approaching blitz levels of grit again from a casual glance.

I unfortunately ended up no longer playing because I couldn't find people to play with. I actually broke the some of the miniatures out recently, there are quite a few packs that I haven't assembled or painted yet and started to do that.

 warboss wrote:
That does bring up an interesting point. Initially, part of the reason for going with these rules was to allow for a leaner game that plays faster with more figs. While the EW and command options in HG are definitely positive things, there is sometimes too much of a good thing. I haven't read the latest two variants and haven't played even longer than that so I can't comment for sure but we seem to be approaching blitz levels of grit again from a casual glance.

Heh, that one I'm not really all that heartbroken about, I think the previous 800-1000TV forces, or about 3-4 squads of 4-5, wasn't too bad at all, size wise.

It's all about the benjamins, baby! If they make the game cheaper and easier to play then they can encourage you to buy more models. My fear is that they'll only accomplish the latter.

 warboss wrote:
It's all about the benjamins, baby! If they make the game cheaper and easier to play then they can encourage you to buy more models. My fear is that they'll only accomplish the latter.

Yeah, that felt like a bit of a desperate cash grab. If I was the one doing a revamp, I would hope that simplification could lead to that, but it wouldn't have been one of my main goals. (And it looked like from the beginning that it might not really be the case, some of the new rules looked more complicated than the old ones, like offboard support)

Anyone else find it odd that the smallest and "newest" armies of Terra Nova get the most subfactions?

http://www.dp9.com/content/development-blog-schedule-sub-lists

I frankly don't think either of them needs that many and should be cut down to 4 max. Most of the extras are just "filler" with the core set + a polar faction.

Look, it's obvious that player cannot personalized their list if they don't have a large set of official army list to choose from. Without that, they might have to think about what they want to play, how they want to play it and how to do it with a "normal" army list! That's clearly impossible! The only solution is to have 1 type of army list per player! That way, every player's list is personalized.
Wait... I think I just figured out why DP9 is so uninterested in player retention: they want to reduce the player base. With fewer players, they would only need a few sub-faction to cover everyone! It's fool proof!


More seriously, that's just DP9's "design" philo"sophy" at work: pile things up, without concern for complexity, balance, relevance or coherence. The solution to every problem is to add more components.

mrondeau wrote:
DP9's "design" philo"sophy" at work: pile things up, without concern for complexity, balance, relevance or coherence. The solution to every problem is to add more components.

I definitely agree with you on all of that. They want players to keep buying miniatures from their monopoly over the title, but continually keep going out of their way to hinder that very same process.
And Prophet forbid you ever dare to point that out at any time.

dave wrote:Equipment availability and the character of different military forces on Terra Nova goes beyond a list of equipment.

er... What models, and which variants for those models, a force may take from it's availability does determine it's tabletop character.

I thought that line was a little weird yet kind of telling.
Because really, faction character is just that based precisely on how they choose to structure it. Anything stating otherwise is, at best, obfuscation of that fact.
Or else an outright lie, if not additionally a gross display of cluelessness as to the inner workings of their own game(s).
This is likewise a clear indication of holdover from the RPG mindset.

And if the "lists provided in the Alpha are never supposed to be the be all and end all of the lists." why were the loadouts of the inconsistently named variants mentioned as being "locked in" by this same person when queried on it? Because the unit availability there was determined precisely by that carried equipment and how powerful or not powerful players perceived it to be.

Those numbers probably aren't going to change all that much, unless the game goes back to the days of examples such as the all-MBZK Northern Airborne squadron and RtCE GP squadron, or similar obviously unbalanced combat groups.

I notice they've also held starting any lists until after "Alpha review," which is also coincidentally when the last Blitz-era primary faction update is supposed to be released.

ferrous wrote:
The way the Blitz rules work, the game is at it's worst with all vanilla troops, especially for new players, since the weapons are so anemic that you could fire at each other every round and have nothing happen. If you take a look at most of the lists posted in the army building section and count the number of Jägers and Hunters in them, the great majority of them come up zero.

 warboss wrote:
[..]can encourage you to buy more models. My fear is that they'll only accomplish the latter.

True, except we don't play our games the way TPTB folks do, because they consider a snub an acceptable match for a LBZK in those 3 vs 3 demo games.

I find it quite strange that the upper tier Pod folks are always insistent that the vanilla models remain by enforcing them as starting builds even when constantly told players immediately swap them out if possible - yet at the same time the Pod specifically focuses each product on weighting access to the new models within that are created to showcase that faction.

And it's certainly not as if they're afraid to prune the product line, count models "as another," or create unbalanced combat groups and models from faction to faction, all essentially at whim.

 Balance wrote:
It at least was a goal, but no clue if it's working or not.

 warboss wrote:
I haven't read the latest two variants and haven't played even longer than that so I can't comment for sure but we seem to be approaching blitz levels of grit again from a casual glance.

ferrous wrote:
And it looked like from the beginning that it might not really be the case, some of the new rules looked more complicated than the old ones, like offboard support

Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Every time I did glance through the Alpha rules I kept having this strange impression I was only seeing Blitz reworded into another form, with all of the things that were supposed to speed up play simply pasted over it.

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 Smilodon_UP wrote:

I definitely agree with you on all of that. They want players to keep buying miniatures from their monopoly over the title, but continually keep going out of their way to hinder that very same process.
And Prophet forbid you ever dare to point that out at any time.

To bring a bit of balance to the discussion - they do need to keep you buying miniatures. That's what they do - they are a miniatures wargaming company. If you aren't buying miniatures, you're not helping to keep their doors open. Some element of that should be expected, but good marketing is making sure that as few players as possible notice

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

This is likewise a clear indication of holdover from the RPG mindset.

That, and the continuing desire to try to 'bridge the gap' between the RPG and minis markets so that the solution can be sold to both camps. They should be willing to retcon or reboot concepts like faction identity or model disposition in order to make a profitable wargames line, but seem to want to keep as much as possible of the old fluff intact. Having more distinct factions would go a long way towards helping them understand which are profitable, which are not and where could put their dollars, but right now with the mega factions of North and South being essentially one 'glob' it's a hard way forward. There are some unique models in each faction, but lots of bleed over, which made sense in the RPG setting but a bit less in the minis side. Different faction identities breed cross-pollination, if it's done well.

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

I find it quite strange that the upper tier Pod folks are always insistent that the vanilla models remain by enforcing them as starting builds even when constantly told players immediately swap them out if possible - yet at the same time the Pod specifically focuses each product on weighting access to the new models within that are created to showcase that faction.

At some point during the Alpha, this was most certainly not the case. A Hunter and a Jaguar were priced identically because while the Jaguar was situationally better the Hunter was tougher overall and that tended to balance out. After playing 20+ speed matches (3v3, 24" board, no objectives) of the various permutations of Hunter v. Jaguar, Jager v. Black Mamba it was hard to choose between the Hunter and Jaguar at the same price point, while the Mamba's armor edged it as slightly more potent. The augment system wasn't as 'forceful' as the modifiers, so the difference between Jaguar and Hunter was subtle. The Jaguar had better Augs, and a heavier AC, but the Hunter could take more hits before being damaged - which greatly reduced your effectiveness - which tended to win as many matches as the Jaguar's greater firepower. The Mamba's higher AC and Armor tended to win those style of matches, but it was often a close one; there were very few blowouts.

Going into MechaAttack (my house rules that became the Alpha) that was a direct requirement; that the vanilla trooper be able to inflict damage on a vanilla trooper > 60% of the time in a normal situation. Which meant the mechanics were setup such that at 18", you tended to do at least 1 point of damage > 60% of the time in an equivalent matchup. This very much toned down the potency of the 'elite' gears (which was intentional) which was something that I know received negative feedback. Some people liked that their Jaguars / Mambas could be in the open at top speed and effectively could not be killed, which always sat wrong with me. The fluff depicts Gears as needing to use cover and be smart, so the system was initially setup that way. What it is now, I don't know, but I'm saddened if that's not been carried through and things are reverting to the 'stalemate' in most cases.

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else find it odd that the smallest and "newest" armies of Terra Nova get the most subfactions?

http://www.dp9.com/content/development-blog-schedule-sub-lists

I frankly don't think either of them needs that many and should be cut down to 4 max. Most of the extras are just "filler" with the core set + a polar faction.

I can see a rationale behind the NuCoal sub-factions, given that it's largely composed of city-states in a loose alliance. But Peace River's overflow of groups just seems flat out silly. And even in NuCoal's case, most of the groups should be pretty much the same. imo, the proper way to handle NuCoal's sub-groups would be to treat them the same way that named units were treated in the current edition.

The same logic that produced the Peace River groups should also be producing the exact same set of groups for each of the Polar sub-factions.

Eumerin wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else find it odd that the smallest and "newest" armies of Terra Nova get the most subfactions?

http://www.dp9.com/content/development-blog-schedule-sub-lists

I frankly don't think either of them needs that many and should be cut down to 4 max. Most of the extras are just "filler" with the core set + a polar faction.

I can see a rationale behind the NuCoal sub-factions, given that it's largely composed of city-states in a loose alliance. But Peace River's overflow of groups just seems flat out silly. And even in NuCoal's case, most of the groups should be pretty much the same. imo, the proper way to handle NuCoal's sub-groups would be to treat them the same way that named units were treated in the current edition.

The same logic that produced the Peace River groups should also be producing the exact same set of groups for each of the Polar sub-factions.

Agreed. I find it ridiculous that Paxton gets an entire sublist for their "special forces" (and even multiple lists depending on how you view the also elite HGSF) when the Legion Noire gets diddly squat at the same time. Feel free to post in the DP9 thread on the matter.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16190

I've already posted my manifestos there but additional viewpoints from other players might help. IN any case, any justification you give for Paxton to get stuff beyond 2-3 lists applies even MORESO to polar factions yet they get nothing. It isn't surprising though given the mary sue unfair nature of Blood Debt and the batpoop crazy design theories I was told during playtesting. Apparently, the north and south get just as much as paxton because they can buy more models. It's ok for a paxton player to get MUCH MORE utility out of their box of minis compared with a polar player who paid just as much for his/her box because the polar player can buy different minis. Yes, the special ability of the polar forces according to an influential person in the design process is their ability to have you spend more money on other figures. Much like in George Orwell's animal farm, not all $50 purchases are created equal and it was a purposeful design GOAL during development to give certain players more bang for each dollar. It of course doesn't hurt if the designer making the decision to get more bang for the buck of one faction plays THAT faction exclusively. That type of "some animals are more equal than others" mentality has unfortunately continued into the alpha with the army sublists' selective choice of faction variety and previously with the gear stats of some gears getting huge power boosts for literally no costs (but that has been at least partially remedied ONLY after being caught and shamed in public).

 IceRaptor wrote:
To bring a bit of balance to the discussion - they do need to keep you buying miniatures. That's what they do - they are a miniatures wargaming company. If you aren't buying miniatures, you're not helping to keep their doors open.

True, selling miniatures is a good thing.
Except, the Pod is always going about that process in the most utterly bizarre, futile, and/or counterproductive way(s) possible.

 IceRaptor wrote:
They should be willing to retcon or reboot concepts like faction identity or model disposition in order to make a profitable wargames line, but seem to want to keep as much as possible of the old fluff intact.

I don't even know what to make of that anymore.
TPTB will arbitrarily change something based on essentially nonsense comments without stopping to think whether or not it will be a good idea, or slash apart a previous attempt without trying to understand what the goal was even if it gave them virtually everything they wanted, time and time again all for an inclusion of the moment that may or may not even sell, let alone ever get produced.

Not to mention they are just as likely to immediately turn around and try to keep enforcing a completely different paradigm that players understand to be wholly sub-optimal when used within the company's own ruleset.
Yet the company clearly, and obviously, has no problem whatsoever changing things whenever it suits them to do so, and they still quite often try do all of these things I mentioned at the same time, practicality be damned.

In the end it's proven essentially impossible to tell in any given moment which way the flag is currently veering at Pod central.
IIRC it was Hudsond who commented earlier in this topic about how the only "vision" the company seems to cling to during this continuous farce they call doing business is an uncompromising stance against having any vision at all in the first place.

 IceRaptor wrote:
At some point during the Alpha, this was most certainly not the case.

My post was pretty much just venting on HGB, and not the rules revamp based on your work, sorry for the miscommunication there.

 warboss wrote:
Apparently, the north and south get just as much as paxton because they can buy more models.

I can't honestly say that will still be the case.
It's still going to be a field guide "mess," which probably goes without saying based on the previous three, but workable at least used to figure into that.


Hell, I never even saw the "completed" datacards beyond the few that ended up in the FSG, nor was I ever consulted on any of them after turn-in.
That right there might, just, you know, have like some kind of minute affect on the end product.....

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Eumerin wrote:
I can see a rationale behind the NuCoal sub-factions, given that it's largely composed of city-states in a loose alliance.

Up to a point, yes, but...

Wouldn't that apply just as much to every city-state of every league on Terra Nova, northern or southern? Most are as different as different can get!

 Albertorius wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
I can see a rationale behind the NuCoal sub-factions, given that it's largely composed of city-states in a loose alliance.

Up to a point, yes, but...

Wouldn't that apply just as much to every city-state of every league on Terra Nova, northern or southern? Most are as different as different can get!

Only armies played by influential folks at DP9 get that kind of stuff. Everyone knows the HMA fire support squads are identical with Cat's Eye recon squads in their respective regiments! The difference between them is nothing compared to the difference between the Paxton regiment from the left side of the Peace River crater and the one on the right side of the Peace River crater. Dp9 operates selectively for only certain factions on the same theory as the comical Left TWIX and Right TWIX factory commercials running here in the US.

Just how many different models do they think each of these factions even has to create all of these sub-lists with, if that ever entered into consideration in the first place?
Creating multitudes of variants is not the same thing at all.

The Pod does not have the model variety they seem to think they have IME, especially given all of the models that were made to "count as" in the v5 rules.
I don't know if that will be able to stand or not when making the sub-lists as they have them planned.

Aside from limited availability trash like the rally models and the gear-striders, they've been lucky to introduce one actual new model per project the last ~fourish years post-TPS, a couple of which were also limited availability.
And I'm not even sure the few new ones from Lion's Wrath are going to make it to publication.

Although, to be fair, I suppose the company probably couldn't manage to sell any new conventional vehicles given what they would charge for them on an individual basis.
Everything in that vein has only been "rule of cool - $$$ grab" stuff like the hoppers and Barnaby, with just resculpts for previous existing vehicles.

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_

 Albertorius wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
I can see a rationale behind the NuCoal sub-factions, given that it's largely composed of city-states in a loose alliance.

Up to a point, yes, but...

Wouldn't that apply just as much to every city-state of every league on Terra Nova, northern or southern? Most are as different as different can get!

Not necessarily. NuCoal is a bunch of otherwise independent city-states banded together strictly for defensive purposes. Each city-state still more or less runs its own show. Under that argument, you could justify giving each city its own army list.

The cities in the North and the South are all part of larger nations. Unit composition will be quite similar among the various military units within the same nation, regardless of which city the unit itself is based on. One NorLight unit should be more or less like another NorLight unit.

Now having said that...

As I mentioned, I think the best way to go would be to treat each individual NuCoal city state (except for maybe Port Arthur, if they're being lumped in with NuCoal) the same way as the distinctive regiments were treated in the current edition of the game. i.e. as units built using the standard template, but with a few tweaks here and there to give the units more flavor. They're all drawing from more or less the same base of equipment, and it's not as if any of the individual city states is rich enough to completely break the mold. Their choices are probably going to be heavily constrained by the available budget, which realistically would generate a certain amount of uniformity across the board.


Getting back to Paxton, the differing releases actually sound like what the old priority system of list building was designed to represent. You want a general peace keeping team, then you build a priority rating 1 list. If you want a spec ops raiders list, then you go with priority rating 4. Are they throwing out the priority system in the new rules?

Feel free to post in the DP9 thread on the matter.

I suppose I could. And I might. But I doubt it. I just can't seem to work up any enthusiasm for the game at this point, given all of the past nonsense with the Pod.

My mecha enthusiasm at this point is largely being directed toward the release of Mekton Zero this year.

Eumerin wrote:

Not necessarily. NuCoal is a bunch of otherwise independent city-states banded together strictly for defensive purposes. Each city-state still more or less runs its own show. Under that argument, you could justify giving each city its own army list.

So... exactly as you could with the polar city states, then? Where you have representative democracies, participative democracies, corporate states, revisionist teocracies, bureocratic states and hereditary aristocracies in the very same league? (And that was the NLC, which with their revisionist leanings is arguably the most homogeneus of the leagues, not the least one).

The fact of the thing is that the leagues are actually much more diverse than the NuCoal, and their armies have actually had enough history to be very, very, very distinctive between divisions and regiments, whereas the NuCoal army, being basically mint, should be much more homogeneous.

The cities in the North and the South are all part of larger nations. Unit composition will be quite similar among the various military units within the same nation, regardless of which city the unit itself is based on. One NorLight unit should be more or less like another NorLight unit.

Nope. As I said, the city states of the polar leagues are as diverse (if not much more) than the NuCoal ones, and other than the NorGuard, which is more standarized (and even there there's the loaned units from the leagues) and the MILICIA to an extent (but there variation is much more severe between regiments), the polar armies are just so much bigger and come from a so much more diverse pool that their armies should actually have much, much, MUCH more variation than NuCoal or (particularly) Paxton.

Ugh, NuCoal was a slap to the face of existing factions and to what little fluff there was. Not as bad as the new PRDF book in power creep, but still irked me no end. Also, for all their talk of promoting greater diversity in gear selection, why does every single faction have to have an elite gear that is almost a complete mirror of one another? The Cuirasser does not need to exist, NuCoal could've easily stood on its own without it.

 Albertorius wrote:
Nope. As I said, the city states of the polar leagues are as diverse (if not much more) than the NuCoal ones, and other than the NorGuard, which is more standarized (and even there there's the loaned units from the leagues) and the MILICIA to an extent (but there variation is much more severe between regiments), the polar armies are just so much bigger and come from a so much more diverse pool that their armies should actually have much, much, MUCH more variation than NuCoal or (particularly) Paxton.

The individual city state governments and cultures are irrelevant. What it comes down to is two things -

1.) Who's signing the checks for the military?
2.) Who's handling the logistical end of things?



While it's possible that some of the Northern and Southern city-states perform the item #1, such things are typically (i.e. in most settings) the province of the national government. And item #2 is important because unusual gears (to pick something random and silly, Jagers in a WFP unit) are going to require specialized supply set-ups in order to get basic things such as spare parts and tools. Even assuming that the city states are signing their own checks for purchases for the local units, decisions at the national level regarding units in use are going to influence what the locals pick because it's important to have a certain amount of cohesion with the rest of the nation. If a unit stationed at Fort Henry is rotated down to the border, then it's important that the unit can be easily supported by the WFP's logistical network with a minimum of disruption. That doesn't rule out very odd units, such as the Drop Bears, but it does mean that units like that will tend to be rare.

As each city in the North and South is part of a larger nation, units will tend to be very similar (depending on the unit's function, of course).

...you do realize that both 1) and 2) apply as much to the NuCoal and Paxton as to anyone else, don't you? Because it's exactly the same, FFS.

Even retconned as it is (or in the case of the NSDF, especially as retconned as it has been), the Perfect Storm book clearly states that " Riding the wave of popular support for the newly formed NSDF, the members of NuCoal chose to aggressively standardize and modernize their equipment, personnel and facilities".

Just like any other league. Imagine that.

I see it as a by product of trying to FORCE variety into minis lineups that can't support them. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well. Then with Paxton, you have some obvious favoritism thrown in on top of that with them not even bothering to pay anything for a myriad of abilities and stat increases.

If the north PDF comes out and there aren't FREE stat buffs that everyone else needs to pay for with BOTH tv and vet slots, it'll be a verification of the favoritism applied to a certain faction played exclusively by the person who developed them. Paxton gets immunity to crossfire for free so... following that trend... EVERY northern unit should get immunity to IF def penalties for free, right? Since Paxton gets half priced support airstrikes, the north should get half priced artillery strikes, right? Free LD and EW boosts for CGLs that aren't paid for (although that has been partly corrected with the last update but not completely... and none of them pay the vet slot cost others have to pay)... Free Detect stat upgrades for gears for only 1TV seems fair since Paxton got it... heck, it's not like it's the third most important stat in the game and the VCS criminally undercosts it, right? Of course, I'm just basing the above theories about the northern PDF on the paxton one which is public knowledge. If the northern PDF ends up instead at the same level as FIF and TPS (which I personally consider on par with each other overall), then the bias will be clear.

Do they have the cheesy power armor that was in the Alpha? Because PRDF was really lacking, and totally needed infantry that was better than GRELs, and made golems look even more stupid and pointless.

Hopefully! If Paxton pays nothing to make their STANDARD infantry immune to crossfire AND have +1 armor, I await the northern infantry that will be +1 armor and immune to IF penalties for no cost. Of course, judging from the support PDF with the engineering and medic units, ONLY paxton gets something repeatedly for nothing. This grand tradition was carried over to the initial alpha stats as well as the preferential treatment they'll apparently get in regards to sublists for such a relatively tiny faction. I guess the most important thing about choosing an army is making sure that you check ahead of time who at DP9 (if anyone!) plays them. The discrepancy about the EXACT SAME support units not paying anything for multiple benefits for a single faction was ABSOLUTELY brought up both to Robert and others to no effect (since that product is out in the wild, my NDA doesn't cover it anymore). In that case, they couldn't even hide behind the VCS because the infantry squads are IDENTICAL except where they're simply better for no cost with Paxton. As Hudson said, they simply don't care (or, more accurately in the case of one person, they care only to make sure that one faction gets all the benefits they can at little to no cost while the others don't care).

ferrous wrote:
Do they have the cheesy power armor that was in the Alpha? Because PRDF was really lacking, and totally needed infantry that was better than GRELs, and made golems look even more stupid and pointless.

yeah, it is there EDIT: the Paxton one, I mean

Hey, when your normal infantry is already better than everyone else's multiple ways for no cost, you need to somehow make the elite ones different! Come one, guys. You're not approaching this issue of balance correctly! The pigs.. I mean Paxton... need to sleep in the farmer's house!

 warboss wrote:
Hopefully! If Paxton pays nothing to make their STANDARD infantry immune to crossfire AND have +1 armor, I await the northern infantry that will be +1 armor and immune to IF penalties for no cost. Of course, judging from the support PDF with the engineering and medic units, ONLY paxton gets something repeatedly for nothing. This grand tradition was carried over to the initial alpha stats as well as the preferential treatment they'll apparently get in regards to sublists for such a relatively tiny faction. I guess the most important thing about choosing an army is making sure that you check ahead of time who at DP9 (if anyone!) plays them. The discrepancy about the EXACT SAME support units not paying anything for multiple benefits for a single faction was ABSOLUTELY brought up both to Robert and others to no effect (since that product is out in the wild, my NDA doesn't cover it anymore). In that case, they couldn't even hide behind the VCS because the infantry squads are IDENTICAL except where they're simply better for no cost with Paxton. As Hudson said, they simply don't care (or, more accurately in the case of one person, they care only to make sure that one faction gets all the benefits they can at little to no cost while the others don't care).

Yeah, I didn't mind the immune to crossfire stuff back when they were a subpar force, saddled with overpriced models, or elite models that weren't exactly the same as all the other models. (Which DP9, for all its complaining about differentiation, seemed determined to give everyone the same exact elite model)

But then the new book made them stupidly power creeped, and gave them a slew of options they shouldn't have. Hover gears, sure why not? They've no reason to have them, but for a designers whims. Half surprised they didn't end up with triple linked MRPs.