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2014/06/10 22:11:07
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I collected a bit of Heavy Gear, but I never stuck with it becuase I liked Lighting Strike better. A very "gundam" feel, with mecha fighting in space. A very good RPG setting, too, which I though helped give life to the miniatures game. I know they have an RPG setting for HG, too, but I just didn't find that world as attractive.
2014/06/10 23:20:49
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, I think a skirmish based Heavy Gear game, with decent mechanics could be a home run.
I don't know about that last part.
People are clamoring for a highly customization mech based skirmish game that isn't Battletech. At least a lot of people I know are. And to most casual players, Heavy Gear doesn't have a terrible rep yet... just when you actually decide you want to play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know I'm essentially saying:
"I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 23:29:13
2014/06/11 00:46:58
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Twelvecarpileup wrote: People are clamoring for a highly customization mech based skirmish game that isn't Battletech. At least a lot of people I know are. And to most casual players, Heavy Gear doesn't have a terrible rep yet... just when you actually decide you want to play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know I'm essentially saying:
"I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
Well...
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
Just a thought.
2014/06/11 05:08:37
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
"The most active", I think, is something to say that it's one of the longest running, warboss.
RJVF, twelvecarpile, Eumerin, mdauben, I could use some help with the rules I'm creating. If you're interested.
While I would like to go with 'the 20-30 miniature range' for Thunder Run, I do admit Infinity's 10-order pool limit is attractive for skirmishers, so feel free to check them out and see for yourselves.
And yes, it's a Work-in-Progress, but it's coming along.
Also twelvecarpile, I recently spoke with one player here in Houston who has played the Rally Racing board game and really enjoyed it. It is much more of a 'board game' feel than a tabletop wargame, but it is cheaper to buy in.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Ronin_eX, while I know that Caprice is horribly expensive to buy into, my fan-make rules will be giving a lot more 'firepower', in essence, to those undeveloped units. Hopefully maybe your friend will like them when I get them out there.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
2014/06/11 06:11:13
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
Just a thought.
It's been arriving for almost a year, now ^_^
2014/06/11 06:53:47
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Right now the link is asking me to sign into OneDrive. Soooo maybe a different link?
And for some reason, when you Spoiler images, Dakka doesn't auto-fit. But if you had just posted it normally, Dakka's forum software tends to compress it down so it fits onto the screen without any silly sidescrolling.
Uuuuuusually!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find that Brandon's ruleset is a really good adaptation for Heavy Gear, and gives it a much faster, violent feel to combat. The Gears are substantially lethal without having to roll dice buckets, and the rules are quick and streamlined.
I'm biased, but Infinity really has the best (sci-fi) skirmish ruleset on the market. (And mini's too but hey... biased!)
The only issue I'm having is that once you get to a force size that is larger than around 15 models, it starts to get cumbersome. But that is because in Infinity, most models move as individuals, with Teams/Groups/Squads being rather limited to one per side. The reason being that these little 'Squads within the Squad' get a whole lot of bonuses that make them incredibly dangerous, in both the active and reactive phases of the game.
(For those of you unfamiliar with the way Infinity works, there's some semi-helpful tutorials online, or check out the Corvis Belli section of Dakka!)
Anyway! If you wanted to run larger battles, with Squads of Gears, there would have to be some adjustments here and there. I'm thinking Gear squads of 3-5. Strider groups of up to 3.
Having max group strength would give bonuses, and as they get picked off, they would gradually lose those bonuses.
Maybe after the group drops below a certain number, they have to take tests to stay in the fight. Unless the Squad Leader is still alive. (Like if they get cut down to 2 or less units).
It'd be interesting since you could throw out the whole Loss of Lieutenant rule for the whole force, making it a much more 'Squad to Squad' sort of combat situation. So if the average Blitz force is 20-35 models, then you'd have around 4-7 Squads on the table.
Now... the issue with that, is that Gears are about... what Space Marine size? Some of the bigger ones are more like Terminators. And then the Striders are even bigger. So you have these large groups that need a lot of terrain when they're moving around, otherwise they'll get eaten alive in ARO.
Soooo... if you were playing with 30 models each side. 60 models total. You'd need a playing field of around... probably a 6ft by 4ft, like a typical 40K game. But with a much smaller model count. You'll still need a lot of terrain, but with a big board, you can have larger 'set pieces'. Mountains, canyons, etc. Big chunky Styrofoam to block line of sight.
And to make things MORE interesting, and more realistic to Heavy Gear's faster-than-mechwarrior nature, you boost the movement range on the Gears when they're using their Wheel/Tread movement systems. Make em' like the motorcycles in Infinity, something blisteringly fast. This will allow a lot of fast, cool maneuvers that could have units zipping along the battlefield, changing up position and flanking and doing all sorts of cool stuff.
But when they were in this zippy-fast-mode, they'd have to disengage it before moving into/through cover, otherwise they'd have to make Physical checks or become immobilized or stunned for a turn, or possibly take damage. To benefit though, and give them a bit of survivability, is that when the Wheels are engaged, they get the ODD special rule, making them harder to hit. But they would also take a penalty for making attacks as well. I'd have to work on the balance of it... maybe making weapons Burst 1, and Burst 1 weapons requiring a stable platform to fire on accurately, so they wouldn't be able to do a drive-by with a Snub Cannon... they'd have to get back to their feet in order to be accurate?
I'm rubbish at balance, that's what game designers are for.
...just food for thought?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 15:56:04
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/11 18:06:29
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I know I'm essentially saying: "I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
That seems to be a pretty common lament in my experience once I tried to get into gaming HG on the tabletop instead of just playing the first PC game years back.
And the Pod is definitely not an entity that can change that; signed copies of a temporary Beta rulebook looks a tad like pure hubris when the company cannot get a previous product right after two prior attempts plus the original release.
What are they going to do if nobody buys those signed copies, say that situation never happened? It's dicey IME when they're already running along the edge.
I've kicked around some ideas for a ruleset for this or that game I liked on and off in past years, but never took them anywhere.
* Given the reception to other ideas I've tossed out into the tiny pool of HG readers [or insert other setting of interest here] beyond a very small handful of folks, if even that, most of the time it's pretty pointless to get creative with your own thing. Kris probably has the right idea to go with remaking another ruleset to work as best it can with the setting, as the other attempts I've seen didn't have that kind of popularity boost to garner much any attention so they could be hammered into a polished final whole even if they had good concepts in their own right.
* My math skills don't extend to statistics, so I would have to bother other folks for that, and they already have a lot on their plate with family, friends, their own gaming things, and etc etc. For the most part I just answer questions on things I'm reasonably sure about or know where to look up, and offer comments on something else if asked.
* The vast majority of robot wargame players want a ruleset that allows them to poke or slice another model with swords and axes, which doesn't always work very well in the same game with computer assisted ranged weaponry unless deliberately structured to allow viable melee combat. I personally think mecha melee is stupid as hell, but it is what people want - so in reality any ruleset that doesn't allow or cater to it is doomed.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:21:55
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/11 19:11:37
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Sigh.. as if I needed another reason not to like Blood Debt... Paxton just stole the wolf strider apparently as it is now a Paxton Hyena. But, hey, look on the bright side! The north gets another stupid gear strider and a ridiculously slow pregnant heavy strider... wait... that's not so bright. The wolf was the only new northern model I was genuinely excited about. :(
2014/06/11 19:23:10
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
@Smilodon_UP - Yeah, which is why I find Infinity's methods of Melee combat seem to work well. It's primarily a shooting game, which isn't to say melee doesn't happen... but when it does happen it tends to be short and terribly brutal.
I think that, given the setting, 95% of the combat should be ranged. Even if you turn the corner and there's a dude in front of you, you should pull the trigger and blow him away instead of rushing out to smack him with your sword/hatchet/whatever.
That being said, there should still be rules for Melee for sure. If your Gear is reloading and gets jumped. Or if you're desperate and out of ammo, or all sorts of things. It can certainly make for tense gameplay!
I think it is like the first jet fighters. You may use Missiles for almost all the fights, but you never want to discount having the good ole' guns in case a dogfight breaks out.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/11 20:35:17
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
RJVF wrote: I have decided I am simply going to houserule solutions to problems in Blitz until a clean playing ruleset is developed, and ignore Alpha/Beta/v5.
And likely just keep using the old North army lists bc I own enough HGB stuff to play with.
Seems about the only workable choice really.
I tried to make combat groups like the HMA or Cat's Paws able to reflect the NorGuard Army List Book using the option lines, but for most others it got completely lost by having to cover L&L legacy in combination with the contrary source materials or directives from TPTB.
warboss wrote: Sigh.. as if I needed another reason not to like Blood Debt... Paxton just stole the wolf strider apparently as it is now a Paxton Hyena. The wolf was the only new northern model I was genuinely excited about. :(
I didn't bother to download it, but geez, what a classy way to reuse art because the Pod can't get anyone to make new art for when it gets left out of their products months and months later.
Did TPTB use the Wolf loadouts, or the [Jackal/Bison/Hyena/whatever the hell they name it next re-tweak] model's own loadouts?
Because the spindly "Flag anime inspired" thing used for the Wolf does not at all look like how tough the Bison was to take down in test games, even after it lost the AMS trait.
Kind of silly as well how the Red Bull suddenly grew to accommodate bigger guns and more missiles so Paxton can copy or exceed what everyone else gets along with their own freebies.
And less than amusing that no one at the Pod can see how damning that kind of bald-faced favoritism is to their already shattered reputation when done time and time again without pause.
At least for those that have actually heard of the setting....
You're not the only one I remember saying they wanted to use the Wolf, and as I recall AL13N was very excited to get a Naga equivalent.
Oddly enough not a peep since from him, and probably not even after this reuse either.
Though he didn't reply to my emailing him the most current before release materials either.
/shrug, doesn't matter at all in the end. His head is so far up the generalissimo's ass that I can't imagine how Saleem even has room to breathe anymore.
Admittedly I had no liking for the Wolf, but I worked on it just the same as everything else to be objective, no matter how silly I considered some idea or another.
But y'all read on the last page, or this entire thread really, how well that worked out for myself and others.
I noticed last night that the MammothCG is still called the "Heavy Strider" squad even though the Light Strider CG got killed for the Gear-Strider CG.
However Light Strider is still listed for NTR as well, and PRDF used on the marketing blurb introductory page.
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This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:26:06
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/12 02:59:34
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Thanks. It'll take me a bit to digest it all as I'm not infinity proficient. Do you need a working knowledge of infinity's core rules to understand the HG conversion?
You're not the only one I remember saying they wanted to use the Wolf, and as I recall AL13N was very excited to get a Naga equivalent. Oddly enough not a peep since from him, and probably not even after this reuse either. Though he didn't reply to my emailing him the most current before release materials either. /shrug, doesn't matter at all in the end. His head is so far up the generalissimo's ass that I can't imagine how Saleem even has room to breathe anymore.
Admittedly I had no liking for the Wolf, but I worked on it just the same as everything else to be objective, no matter how silly I considered some idea or another. But y'all read on the last page, or this entire thread really, how well that worked out for myself and others.
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I'm a simple guy. I like to use my existing minis and I like to buy cool looking ones; the wolf would have fallen into that latter category. Oh well... the change probably saved me $80 for the pair of resin models I would have needed (judging from the wolf/hyena fluff putting it between the coyote and red bull in size and therefore likely resin $$). I'll have to take a look tomorrow and see if the loadouts changed after playtesting ended with the switch of books it was used in.
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 03:05:51
2014/06/12 04:27:31
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
Noticed that as well.
Goes to show how with the program he was/is, or whatever the hell else is his deal. He chose to quote the original datacard spreadsheet to justify calling something a typo because he had already built the model way back then, yet managed to keep abreast of the Wolf in the later updates because it gave him something he wanted;
Mark --- Message 72 of 75, Nov 30, 2013 Am I reading crossbow wolf right? It swaps acs for linked mrfs and swaps 2 agm for 2 atm and keeps 2 agms?
Alexander --- Message 73 of 75, Dec 1, 2013 Yes, [2x MRF (Linked) + AGM 2 + ATM 2] is correct. There can be (3) in a Veteran squadron. The swap chain is Standard Wolf model -> Arrow Wolf variant -> Crossbow loadout.
Mark --- Message 74 of 75, Dec 1, 2013 I think the Crossbow Variant will be a new addition to my army! Pretty Cool even if LA2 for each I like it.
Yet folks keep wondering why it's so hard to accomplish much with the testing, or to change the game for the better, when the Pod ensures that these are the kind of folks whose voices drown out everyone else. Especially aggravating is when those folks don't care about legacy anything except for their own force(s), and don't want to hear otherwise. Besides AL13N though this last test group seemed to finally have a lot less of that going on.
Likewise, I would never build a model or whatnot to reflect something in a test environment since it's quite likely to change or disappear altogether, as most anyone who games much anything should know just from casual conversation.
And yeah, this all reminds me of when he kept wanting the Dragoon squadron to be able to match the SRA's all-Fer de Lance exclusive cadre, or that every Northern combat group should have a mix of missiles, grenade launchers, and/or lasers. He didn't really back off of wanting those things until all of the WFPA exclusives matched his army build.
Spoiler:
Mark --- Message 3 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Dragoon Squadrons All models; ATK:2, DEF:2, EW:2 - CGL model; Ldr:1 LD:2 should be here.
Trip-Wire Squadron 210 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter 2x Metal Cat No need to have standard metal cat here Metal Cat UC at very least.
Counter-Recon Squadron 235 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter Pathfinder Lose Pathfinder option all together! That option should be for recon squads. Either Standard Hunters/Rabid Hunters here. 2x Strike Cheetah Strike Cheetah a little much Initiate models such as wildcat hunter or cheetah better fits here.
Firebolt / Anti-Structure Squadron 195 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter 2x Assault Hunter Arrow Hunters much wiser option still LA 3 weapon but gives the squad for much more flexible options
General Options (swap - give - add – upgrade : any - up) note to self for clarity. - Swap any Rabid Grizzly CGL for a Standard Jaguar or Standard Cheetah model for -15 TV. - Swap any Standard or Pathfinder loadout Hunter for a Rabid Grizzly model for +30 TV each. Lose the Pathfinder option. - Swap any 2 allowed Standard model for a UC variant /Rabid Variant for +5 TV each. Arrow Variant +10TV - Swap either up to 2 Standard Metal Cats for a Cheetah model for +5 TV each, or swap up to 2 Standard Hunters for a Cheetah model for +15 TV each. - Give any allowed Standard model a Pathfinder loadout for +0 TV each. Cut this option all together. Veteran Options - Swap any Standard Metal Cat for a Silver Cat for +10 TV or a Strike Cheetah for +15 TV. No need for strike cheetah in Dragoon Squad. - Swap any Hunter model or variant for a similar Hunter XMG (Stock) or Jaguar for +15 TV. XMGS A+++ - Swap up to 2 Rabid Grizzly variants for a Standard Kodiak for +45 TV each. Kodiak is a Fire Support or Strike Gear no need to have in an Urban type squad. - Swap up to 2 allowed Standard models for their Strike variant for +10 TV each. I believe you can cut this option all together as well. - Give up to 2 Rabid Grizzly variants a Feral loadout for +10 TV each. Option I do agree with.
[Weapons; L/M*AC, L/M/H*RF, FGC, SC, LPA, L/H*GL, RFB, L/M*BZK, L/M*FM, AGM, L/M*RP, HPZ] Notes; See DRG for notes about the combat group & endnotes about the option lines.
Model swaps allowed here by League-specific rules [types]; NG – Rabid Grizzly CGL Lion SECCOM, XMG (Stock) similar (Custom) [~4], → → Metal Cat → Cheetah, Std Hunter → Jaguar, Std Jaguar → Lion [~2]. NAF - Standard Hunter → Metal Cat [~3], Std Metal Cat → Cheetah, Std Jaguar → Tiger [~3] or Lion [~2]. UMFA – Rabid Grizzly → Thunder Grizzly, Jaguar → Sabertooth [~2], Cheetah → Bobcat, Silver Cat → Tattletale, Standard Hunter or Standard Jaguar → similar Tiger, [~4]. WFPA - Standard Metal Cat → Wildcat [~2] or [Vet], Bobcat [~2], Cheetah → SD Hunter [~2], Strike Cheetah → Strike Bobcat, Standard Hunter → Mad Dog, Strike Jaguar → Peacemaker Razorback. [~18 possible model types] [~6 possible loadout types]
Alexander --- Message 5 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Multiple models carrying multiple missiles in a "lower-end" combat group able to fill out the bulk of a force is completely unfair to every other faction in game - while the cost for the Kodiak both in TV and $$$ means players that do use them aren't all that likely to have much any other comparable models in their army, so it should balance out.
The combination of Kodiak, Grizzly, and Strike Cheetahs can be found in the Northern Army list book.
It actually seems like the LPA (Sniper) is best at killing enemy scouts while backing up friendly scouts. And the Kodiak needed more exposure as well, and can be found now in (2) generic combat groups plus (2) faction exclusive squadrons, and the Knights CG.
Wildcats got left in the GP for players that already had them there or in the Recon from either L&L or RtCE, and to keep some variety. Otherwise they became WFPA-only models found in their exclusive squadrons, of which (2) combat group types can already access the Rabid [LGL] loadout.
If you don't like Pathfinder, uhm, don't use it? It's only allowed in (4) of ~(23) combat groups, while some form of Rabid is in (6) of the lot, (2) of which are WFPA-only, which also got Feral [HGL].
And every CG can't have the exact same range of loadouts or variants swaps. The workup on page 12 of the PDF laying them all out should now be reasonably up to date.
Strike Cheetahs are only in (3) generic combat groups, and one of those is the Airborne. TBH they seem very "Dragoon"-ish, and I'm not sure I understand the objections to them being included. More so since they are legacy from L&L and the source material archived in the Team Dropbox folder.
And [Initiate] models are NAF Knights of Massada only?
Metal Cats - this is a legacy model thing, if players want to use their existing standard Cheetahs and not have to spend TV on the swap to actual Cheetahs. Trip-Wire is basically the Dragoon "All Stock" squad.
Removing Assault Hunters in an initial sub-type of the combat group would mean needing another option line so that XMGs and Jaguars could get that variant, instead of simply swapping same for same. Less option lines is generally better, because it means less things that can be either rules lawyered or cause unintended problems when combined into a force with other combat group types.
If anything is unclear, I tried to cover why something is worded a certain way in the notes attached to the end of the PDF, which can be directly found by clicking the page link in the "Notes" line.
Recon squadrons got LD2: mostly because they make a pretty good Army command group, not needing to work together for -DEF purposes like most other combat groups. Mostly the Recon models spend a game all doing their own thing or supporting other CGs as singles or pairs.
If you ask me the Dragoons as written need a whole new rewrite honestly they are garbage as listed. -- this is previous data I'm used to and grown to like. (Mark)
Part of the issue, and I know they have changed significantly, is they were over-loaded with equipment swaps in L&L, instead of just being a cut-back combination of Recon + GP with a dash of Strike & FS. As is, the goal was to make them function as a backup or spearhead for any of the (4) standard squadron types, without being able to do it as well as those dedicated combat groups.
With them being put to AUX instead of SPEC, they were also rather grossly over-powered for what they needed to do - and cannot be a Strike equivalent in all but name. So no missiles except on the Kodiak. If you look at the PDF's change log, you'll notice getting them into any semblance of anything has been a continual, and painful, process. I fought hard during FiF testing to keep or get *GLs into the MP for most of the reasons you mention, which of course was nixed. I'd really like to not have any CGs get that "pared to nothing" treatment again for any faction.
Pathfinder comes from the Recon mix and is an MP-type loadout, but isn't mandatory except on the pair of Hunters in one sub-type of the combat group, which can still be swapped for Rabid Grizzlies at the same cost. Rabid got moved into the FS and Strike because those squadrons essentially had no AE or stunning capability to speak of, while Dragoons still have UC variants with their HHGs at roughly the same optimal ranges, plus the Rabid's MFMs and LGL or HGL combination. The FS got Rabid for LGL, plus the ABMs on Defender Grizzlies.
Mark --- Message 6 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Ok below will be my Final inputs until I talk to Robert, Jason and Saleem. At this point it seems like beating a dead horse. I'm trying to make positive steps not to battle it out. If you've read all my previous playtest data you will see that I have been a part of playtesting since Perfect storm again some stuff got ignored and now we have triple linked crap that is impossible to deal with as well Forged in Fire where the Naga is stupid cheap on points and will punch in any things face. The republic Honor Guard well I can talk until I'm blue in the face on that guy only input taken there was that it didn't get 8AGMs rather than the 4 it has now. Oh and it doesn't come with a shield thank god or you would spend an entire game trying to kill just one. I know I take some of the changes personally since I do play north and especially the WFPA it's Not My army but an army which I only play. My play group has known me to only play Dragoons as my core, Thus a push for the WFPA rule to make the Dragoons fall into any slot required to field them. That is the back bone of the WFPA the Dragoons. That and fielding in droves tons and tons of gears. Crazy amounts of cheap gears if they die lets just hope they took someone with them. I rarely ever win with them but its really enjoyable for me and the following are all of my comments pertaining to them which you can do with what you chose.
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x Rabid Hunters
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x UC Hunters
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x Arrow Hunters
This is more of a realistic Dragoon Squad and multiple missiles it is only 6 AGMs total on the two guys. Look at Republic honor guard can easily get 20AGMs in a squad. Take a quick look at the Dragoons in Locked and Loaded you may call it broken I say what ever. There are plenty of squads out there with tons of flexibility, Read Forged in Fire and read Perfect Storm its not unbalance. Also there isn't a need for great amounts of MBZKs or HBZKs at all. I post my opinion on what it should be since I played PL2 and both my Core were Dragoons WFPA Dragoons were core. this crazy nonsense that since its and Aux Choice it should have this and not that ect is just plain nonsense. The idea of the field manual is to make it easier and more friendly to make list not to abandon what players have come to expect entirely. I have 6 jaguars with MBZKs and field them Never. The game is much more enjoyable from a fluff point of view win or lose isn't as important. But your thoughts behind it is to throw L&L out the window and say screw with what the squad was designed to do.
Please note: The easy access to UC/Arrow/Assault/Rabid variants also MACs there is a veteran option to get RFB on strike cheetah but you say toss all that out for MRFs which really doesn't fit in the squad never was even intended in previous editions also note zero MBZKs. There are some line items that can be removed as the LRP HMG is a favorite of mine it still is now just part of the UC variants. As you don't want others to lose the access to models nor do I . Yet you throw out most of the gear that I guarantee that 100% of north players who play dragoons have. I also say the WFPA Exclusive Close attack squad should not have a Rabid Grizzly in the squad. I'm just trying to keep a player base and not alienate players. I for one am one of the biggest followers of the game and contribute tons of time to it will not play it ever again if the north get fethed up and right now it appears to be so. I see the use of new models fine that helps robert and the pod but don't kick out what other have liked. You say you were a southern player yourself look at all the cries about FIF some were bad tons were freaking amazing. Fer De Lance is total bull gak I voiced it in playtest and got ignored fine its not my army 370TV 20AGM on 4 +1FC +1Maneuver Gears. Ignore my input on the north and I will sell my army on ebay its just that simple. I don't ask for everything to be my way just use the damn data. I have way too much money invested in Northern models not to care how this book is written. I've probably given way more hours to the pod than most of the staff and my wife and friends would probably love to see that change. There are plenty of other games out there in which could just as easy be fun because right now this process is bull gak. Who makes all of the crazy ideas? We're not reinventing the wheel just greasing it up so it moves smoother.
_ _
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 04:31:02
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
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2014/06/12 04:44:41
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I took a quick peek at the stats. The hyena got bigger, much heavier armed and armored, sturdier, and paradoxically faster than the wolf for about 25TV more. Let's just say it gives a Nucoal Fusilier a run for it's money...
2014/06/12 05:39:55
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:Right now the link is asking me to sign into OneDrive. Soooo maybe a different link?
And for some reason, when you Spoiler images, Dakka doesn't auto-fit. But if you had just posted it normally, Dakka's forum software tends to compress it down so it fits onto the screen without any silly sidescrolling.
Er, that's what I did with the original and I previewed it, and it covered the entire screen... <_< >_> Did I miss somethin'?
Uuuuuusually!
Ah... Yeah, no go unfortunately here. Preview was gargantuan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find that Brandon's ruleset is a really good adaptation for Heavy Gear, and gives it a much faster, violent feel to combat. The Gears are substantially lethal without having to roll dice buckets, and the rules are quick and streamlined.
I'm biased, but Infinity really has the best (sci-fi) skirmish ruleset on the market. (And mini's too but hey... biased!)
The only issue I'm having is that once you get to a force size that is larger than around 15 models, it starts to get cumbersome. But that is because in Infinity, most models move as individuals, with Teams/Groups/Squads being rather limited to one per side. The reason being that these little 'Squads within the Squad' get a whole lot of bonuses that make them incredibly dangerous, in both the active and reactive phases of the game.
(For those of you unfamiliar with the way Infinity works, there's some semi-helpful tutorials online, or check out the Corvis Belli section of Dakka!)
Anyway! If you wanted to run larger battles, with Squads of Gears, there would have to be some adjustments here and there. I'm thinking Gear squads of 3-5. Strider groups of up to 3.
Having max group strength would give bonuses, and as they get picked off, they would gradually lose those bonuses.
Maybe after the group drops below a certain number, they have to take tests to stay in the fight. Unless the Squad Leader is still alive. (Like if they get cut down to 2 or less units).
It'd be interesting since you could throw out the whole Loss of Lieutenant rule for the whole force, making it a much more 'Squad to Squad' sort of combat situation. So if the average Blitz force is 20-35 models, then you'd have around 4-7 Squads on the table.
Now... the issue with that, is that Gears are about... what Space Marine size? Some of the bigger ones are more like Terminators. And then the Striders are even bigger. So you have these large groups that need a lot of terrain when they're moving around, otherwise they'll get eaten alive in ARO.
Soooo... if you were playing with 30 models each side. 60 models total. You'd need a playing field of around... probably a 6ft by 4ft, like a typical 40K game. But with a much smaller model count. You'll still need a lot of terrain, but with a big board, you can have larger 'set pieces'. Mountains, canyons, etc. Big chunky Styrofoam to block line of sight.
And to make things MORE interesting, and more realistic to Heavy Gear's faster-than-mechwarrior nature, you boost the movement range on the Gears when they're using their Wheel/Tread movement systems. Make em' like the motorcycles in Infinity, something blisteringly fast. This will allow a lot of fast, cool maneuvers that could have units zipping along the battlefield, changing up position and flanking and doing all sorts of cool stuff.
But when they were in this zippy-fast-mode, they'd have to disengage it before moving into/through cover, otherwise they'd have to make Physical checks or become immobilized or stunned for a turn, or possibly take damage. To benefit though, and give them a bit of survivability, is that when the Wheels are engaged, they get the ODD special rule, making them harder to hit. But they would also take a penalty for making attacks as well. I'd have to work on the balance of it... maybe making weapons Burst 1, and Burst 1 weapons requiring a stable platform to fire on accurately, so they wouldn't be able to do a drive-by with a Snub Cannon... they'd have to get back to their feet in order to be accurate?
I'm rubbish at balance, that's what game designers are for.
...just food for thought?
No, good food.
solkan (you might know him from the Infinity forums) actually has been giving me great feedback on the Sixth Sense special skill, so I've appended that ONNET-equipped units (read: Heavy Gears) are capable of Dodging the Coordinated Attacks that come from a Forward Observer and Fire Support Stand-By Models.
Basically, for those not familiar with Infinity, any Model in Infinity can attempt to Dodge a Forward Observation. I took that out and instead allow for Models to go into Stand-By (we all know this one). Difference is that just because you're in Stand-By, doesn't mean said Model needs to remain in position. It can move, Shoot, Charge, all that good stuff. It just can't use the weapon system it put in Stand-By. And it waits for a Forward Observer to FO the Model.
Since the Model can't Dodge the FO, though, it does get the Sixth Sense Level 1 (appended a bit due to some minor wording issues in the texts that solkan pointed out), so the pilot can attempt to Dodge however many Stand-By weapons are launched at it as if it were a Coordinated Order (read: he rolls 1 Dodge Reactive Order, the others throw down their dice and sees what shakes out).
Due to this, I might append some of the Rate of Fire I put into some of the weapons (Rocket Pods have anywhere from Burst 3 to Burst 6, which is obscene for an Active BS Skill).
The Junglemower and Peacemaker make their appearances, of course, as the HMG of Heavy Gear. Burst 5, Armor-Piercing. Nasty.
Some of the chassis I have had to modify. Like Chassis Reinforcement. Looks way too much like a doggone Spike Gun. So, make it a Spike Gun. Treat it as a Monofilament Close Combat weapon. Basically, if a Gear hits another Gear with one CC attack - if you're really that good to get that close without dying - the other guy's done, regardless of the number of Wounds he has left.
Smilodon_UP wrote:
* Given the reception to other ideas I've tossed out into the tiny pool of HG readers [or insert other setting of interest here] beyond a very small handful of folks, if even that, most of the time it's pretty pointless to get creative with your own thing. Kris probably has the right idea to go with remaking another ruleset to work as best it can with the setting, as the other attempts I've seen didn't have that kind of popularity boost to garner much any attention so they could be hammered into a polished final whole even if they had good concepts in their own right.
* My math skills don't extend to statistics, so I would have to bother other folks for that, and they already have a lot on their plate with family, friends, their own gaming things, and etc etc. For the most part I just answer questions on things I'm reasonably sure about or know where to look up, and offer comments on something else if asked.
* The vast majority of robot wargame players want a ruleset that allows them to poke or slice another model with swords and axes, which doesn't always work very well in the same game with computer assisted ranged weaponry unless deliberately structured to allow viable melee combat. I personally think mecha melee is stupid as hell, but it is what people want - so in reality any ruleset that doesn't allow or cater to it is doomed._
_
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:@Smilodon_UP - Yeah, which is why I find Infinity's methods of Melee combat seem to work well. It's primarily a shooting game, which isn't to say melee doesn't happen... but when it does happen it tends to be short and terribly brutal.
I think that, given the setting, 95% of the combat should be ranged. Even if you turn the corner and there's a dude in front of you, you should pull the trigger and blow him away instead of rushing out to smack him with your sword/hatchet/whatever.
That being said, there should still be rules for Melee for sure. If your Gear is reloading and gets jumped. Or if you're desperate and out of ammo, or all sorts of things. It can certainly make for tense gameplay!
I think it is like the first jet fighters. You may use Missiles for almost all the fights, but you never want to discount having the good ole' guns in case a dogfight breaks out.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Thanks. It'll take me a bit to digest it all as I'm not infinity proficient. Do you need a working knowledge of infinity's core rules to understand the HG conversion?
I'm a simple guy. I like to use my existing minis and I like to buy cool looking ones; the wolf would have fallen into that latter category. Oh well... the change probably saved me $80 for the pair of resin models I would have needed (judging from the wolf/hyena fluff putting it between the coyote and red bull in size and therefore likely resin $$). I'll have to take a look tomorrow and see if the loadouts changed after playtesting ended with the switch of books it was used in.
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
A working knowledge of Infinity's core rules do help. But Infinity 2.0, Human Sphere, and even the most recent rules that I reference are all free to download on their website.
To be clear, you need three files.
Infinity 2.0 (it's titled en[Rules] under their English downloads), Infinity Human Sphere, and also the third book's rules from Campaign: Paradiso (titled en[NewRules]).
The basic mechanic is simple. Each statistic given to the profile is numbered 1 to 20.
The higher your stat, the better things are. Just like Augments in Blitz 5.0. Except there's a lot greater granularity.
To Shoot, you have to have a Line of Fire (LoF) to the other Model. From the Infinity Wiki: The Line of Fire is an imaginary straight line that runs from the centre of a miniature’s base to an enemy miniature. If there are any obstacles in the way that completely block an enemy miniature from sight, then there is no LoF. Miniatures have a 180-degree field of vision. A target may only be selected by a figure if the miniature can “see” it, at least partially. An enemy model may not be shot at if any object, figure, or scenery element blocks totally the LoF. A miniature must be able to see the target’s head or a body area of equivalent size to be able to fire at him.
In Infinity, the LoF is reciprocal, applying the rule “If I can see you, you can see me”. If a figure can draw LoF to its target, then the target can draw LoF to the figure as well (if it is inside its field of vision).
Hence the reason for AROs. In the Active turn, though, you are given your full Burst with your weapons, so, as Killionaire once said, "It's always your turn, but you want it to be YOUR TURN."
-Brandon F.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 05:40:29
I'm... not really fond of the hyena design. For starters, there's the "every cool toy goes for Paxton" problem, but there is also the fact that... well, even if it is cool looking and all that, I can't help but feel that it doesn't really belong in HG, and particularly in Terra Nova. It looks like it would be much more at home in a Mekton Z book to me, somehow...
Eh, I'm a grognard >_>
EDIT: Brandon, I get a "page not found" error when trying to download your file ^_^
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 07:14:30
2014/06/12 07:43:46
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
BrandonKF wrote: I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
Just a thought.
It's been arriving for almost a year, now ^_^
That's when the kickstarter ended. You've gotta give 'em at least a *little* time to convert that money into finished product!
2014/06/12 10:48:18
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
That's when the kickstarter ended. You've gotta give 'em at least a *little* time to convert that money into finished product!
I already have, you know. This was supposed to be released last december. Six months overdue as of now, and if you believe most of their comments, it's been "right around the corner" the whole six, so...
That said, it appears that one of their illustrators have already sent all his pieces, so it might actually be nearer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 10:50:32
2014/06/12 12:01:20
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/12 13:58:07
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Last post from Robert has certainly cemented the fact that they don't have any kind of actual support for customers at this side of the pond, other than parts replacing I guess.
Well, HG being as expensive as it is, I'm sure that having to buy from their online store will help immensely to gain european customers (or well, customers from anywhere else than USA and Canada I guess).
Not that it's that new a development, of course, given that Wayland has been having a HG sale for quite sometime already... and failing to sell off the remainders.
2014/06/12 15:18:48
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
BrandonKF wrote: I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
I gotta say, Frag Cannons sound like a ton of fun now.
Thanks for adjusting the layout. It is much more printer friendly now, and being able to thumb through pages is a lot easier than having to scroll around. Though I now must question your borders, for they seem to have no rhyme or reason for when they switch between colored and black and white.
Otherwise the rules are great, keep up the good work! I'll try and take notes as I play and let you know what I find.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/12 15:35:54
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
2014/06/12 15:56:27
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
For smaller 'Infinity sized' games you don't use them as Squads, but rather as one big squad. If I'm reading the phrasing right.
But I figured if you were running something like that, then you're free to pick and choose from the lists Ala-carte!
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
