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2014/06/12 16:18:52
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I'm not familiar with infinity so you'll have to bear with me. Are gears effectively being treated as normal infinity infantry and striders as tags? I'm just trying to gauge the scope of the game conversion rules without any real basis to start from.
2014/06/12 17:14:01
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Kinda/sorta. I'd say it's more accurate to think of all the Gears and Vehicles as just different levels of TAG. They have Structure Points and all that, and high Armor ratings. But basically the only difference between TAGs and Infantry in Infinity is the fact that they have Structure Points instead of Wounds.
Otherwise, they all act exactly the same.
Striders are just effectively much larger than Gears, and the increase in Armor, as well as the adjustment in movement speed and the weapons they can equip reflect that.
I think. Brandon will correct me if I'm talking out my arse.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/12 17:35:08
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Have a good idea what Shields should do yet?
I gotta say, Frag Cannons sound like a ton of fun now.
Thanks for adjusting the layout. It is much more printer friendly now, and being able to thumb through pages is a lot easier than having to scroll around. Though I now must question your borders, for they seem to have no rhyme or reason for when they switch between colored and black and white.
Otherwise the rules are great, keep up the good work! I'll try and take notes as I play and let you know what I find.
I've decided to use Shields as a sort of extra Wound, the same as Field Armor. I might modify this so that it only works for the front 180-degree arc.
I do apologize for the layout. I've been trying to modify the black-and-white as quickly as possible, but I'm also staggering the lists out so that people can see:
A. name of Gear B. The amount of Orders it provides C. the type of Gear it is (note: I added Military Police and a couple new Dragoon models in between for North and South in between 2.1b and 2.1d) D. the profile E. Equipment/Skills/Flaws F. Subtypes
The staggering is meant to make things clearer between them all, but I have posted so many profiles I'm having trouble getting to all of them before I notice something 'off' about a Model profile and decide to fix it.
warboss wrote:I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
warboss wrote: I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
For smaller 'Infinity sized' games you don't use them as Squads, but rather as one big squad. If I'm reading the phrasing right.
But I figured if you were running something like that, then you're free to pick and choose from the lists Ala-carte!
Within reason, yes, you can choose with 10 orders or less ala-carte. However, in that case I would recommend keeping a point value between 200-250. I'm interested to hear the differences between those 10-order games and the Squad types I've been working on.
Edit: One of the more curious things is the worth of a 2-order/3-order tank or 2-order strider/Gearstrider in comparison to the 1-order Gears. Whether they are overpowering or balanced enough that while their Armor makes them tough to kill, their low Move Skills make them lumbering and easy to outmaneuver.
warboss wrote:I'm not familiar with infinity so you'll have to bear with me. Are gears effectively being treated as normal infinity infantry and striders as tags? I'm just trying to gauge the scope of the game conversion rules without any real basis to start from.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:Kinda/sorta. I'd say it's more accurate to think of all the Gears and Vehicles as just different levels of TAG. They have Structure Points and all that, and high Armor ratings. But basically the only difference between TAGs and Infantry in Infinity is the fact that they have Structure Points instead of Wounds.
Otherwise, they all act exactly the same.
Striders are just effectively much larger than Gears, and the increase in Armor, as well as the adjustment in movement speed and the weapons they can equip reflect that.
I think. Brandon will correct me if I'm talking out my arse.
No, you're right.
Thunder Run uses the rules for HI and LI for Heavy Gears as far as Movement is concerned. They're all T.A.G.s, naturally, but to keep it simple I've decided not to get into the difference between Structure and Wound points, and just keep it to Wounds.
Likewise, all vehicles (Gears, striders, tanks) make their Dodge rolls at -6 (because that's the T.A.G. standard). The Dodge is PH-based, though, and since tanks are large in PH, I've added the Flaw Inferior Dodge to offset this so that they aren't able to Dodge as well as Gears (would make no sense). I've also given Hyper-Dynamics to Recon and Commando Gears to off-set their capabilities so that they're more capable at Dodging than the more general-purpose troopers.
Killionaire wrote:--nvm
? What's up Killionaire?
-Brandon F.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 19:48:03
Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
2014/06/12 20:03:32
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I'm going to experiment with Shields a little bit. I didn't think of the +1 Wound idea, so I'm going to try that in a couple Skirmishes, and then try it as varying levels of Armor (likely just +1 or +2), that only works in the front Arc of the model.
Regarding the Tanks though... I haven't played with any of them yet, as Gears tend to be what everyone is excited/focused on, so the vehicles tend to get left out in the cold. But knowing they have Multiple Orders... I wonder, does this cheapen the movement nerf a bit? Sure the Gears can be a good deal faster, but if a Tank that is 3-3 spends 2 or 3 orders just moving, that can roll up to 18 inches, so they can still get around a bit.
When I start running my players through my Scenarios, I plan on using a lot of tanks for the Enemy Side, since I don't have very many Gear models and need to maximize the opposing forces elsewhere. It'll also be a good way to show the guys who aren't as familiar with the setting how dangerously lethal Tanks can be. Plus it'll help showcase the difference between Gears and Tanks, and how valuable that maneuverability is.
Still going to be a bit before I hit that stage, but I'll definitely have BatReps (with pictures! lotsofpictures) when we do get there.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/12 20:17:00
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote:Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
I am looking into Fire Teams. Believe me, Coordinated Orders are fine and dandy (for starters), but a Link Team/Fire Team makes a big difference for those 1 Order models.
I'm just leery to do it with something as powerful as the Black Mamba. Multispectral Visor 1 with its weapons and BS would make people weep and gnash their teeth.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:@Brandon - Good to know I'm on the same page!
I'm going to experiment with Shields a little bit. I didn't think of the +1 Wound idea, so I'm going to try that in a couple Skirmishes, and then try it as varying levels of Armor (likely just +1 or +2), that only works in the front Arc of the model.
Regarding the Tanks though... I haven't played with any of them yet, as Gears tend to be what everyone is excited/focused on, so the vehicles tend to get left out in the cold. But knowing they have Multiple Orders... I wonder, does this cheapen the movement nerf a bit? Sure the Gears can be a good deal faster, but if a Tank that is 3-3 spends 2 or 3 orders just moving, that can roll up to 18 inches, so they can still get around a bit.
When I start running my players through my Scenarios, I plan on using a lot of tanks for the Enemy Side, since I don't have very many Gear models and need to maximize the opposing forces elsewhere. It'll also be a good way to show the guys who aren't as familiar with the setting how dangerously lethal Tanks can be. Plus it'll help showcase the difference between Gears and Tanks, and how valuable that maneuverability is.
Still going to be a bit before I hit that stage, but I'll definitely have BatReps (with pictures! lotsofpictures) when we do get there.
Have you checked out the Move Skill for the Fusilier?
That's the de riguer for hovertanks, for now. 8-8 movement. So motorcycles with steroids and big guns.
warboss wrote: Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
I think Link Teams are in the works.
What I was sort of proposing is that for larger games, all of the Squads count as Link Teams. They get certain bonuses (because they're linked), but the big deal about Link Teams is that during YOUR Phase (the Active Phase), when you're moving and shooting with the Team, the whole Team doesn't shoot, but you elect a member of the Team to get the bonuses to take its shots. In Infinity, this means you get a higher Ballistic Skill, and you get an extra 'Burst' (shot) to whatever the weapon is, (as long as it isn't a limited ammo weapon like a Panzerfaust, or in the Heavy Gear Rules, a weapon with Limited Ammo).
This means you could take a guy with an HMG, which is normally Burst 4, and now have a Burst 5 weapon with +3 Ballistic Skill. It is incredibly lethal and dangerous.
Or a Rocket Launcher (or a Bazooka in Heavy Gear's Case) and take it up to Burst 2 or 3.
So obviously you aren't firing with all 5 of the Gears that would make up the Team in the Active turn. You just pick a guy to get helped by his buddies and get all sorts of bonuses.
The thing is, during your Opponent's Turn, (your Reactive Phase), any model that crosses Line of Sight with any model in that Link Team, any of those models can react as individuals and fire at their opponent. AND they all get the added bonuses for being in a Link Team!
So... ARO's (The Infinity term for Reacting in your Opponent's Turn), become very punchy if everyone is in a Link Team. So this might need to be adjusted. That said, you could run them as squads, and limit each side to one Squad that is a 'Link Team' (like Veterans or Elites of some sort). That way the Link Team is dangerous and well organized, and the 'Squads' of guys run on Coordinated Orders, which to cut down on a lot of confusion, allows you to spend one order to command a group of similar models to all do the same thing, like "Move - Move" and so on. They'd still act like a Team, but without all the bonuses.
Another thing to note, is that using the Infinity Rules as is, a Link Team of Striders would only be able to get the first Link Team Bonus, which is +1 Burst. Since they are limited to only being in groups of 3. That leaves the Gears to get the other things like +3 BS and Lvl2 Sixth Sense.
Anyway... if my rambling is confusing, here's the link for how Coordinated Orders work.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/13 02:40:35
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
My only post about the matter at all will be this;
You need to cover what the models physically look like - but you don't have to lock yourselves into duplicating what the weapons do in HGB!.
Now is the time to give them unique roles or traits that don't overlap so as to make something else useless and never be used in-game.
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/13 12:04:32
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
You need to cover what the models physically look like - but you don't have to lock yourselves into duplicating what the weapons do in HGB!.
Now is the time to give them unique roles or traits that don't overlap so as to make something else useless and never be used in-game.
Duly noted!
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Its a little harder with the Heavy Gear factions... as there is a lot of overlap with one side having a Gear that is the equivilant of the other sides. But because of certain features you can add certain rules that add character, and sometimes function to units. Like you'll probably have a few Southern units with JungleTerrain. And quite a few Northern units with MountainTerrain. Stuff like that.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/13 13:27:23
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
2014/06/13 13:37:54
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
It is an admittedly more 'simple' approach to game balance, but it works! And it makes a lot of sense really. Even in modern day combat, we're all on a relatively even playing field. The USA might do things different than Russia, China, Germany, etc, but in the end a lot of the stuff is pretty much the same. (Gross generalization to those that know about modern combat but comeon' guys don't get all technical).
It keeps things balanced, and you don't have to worry about one Faction being dramatically different than the others. But they all still have their own unique flavor.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/13 14:17:26
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
BrandonKF wrote:
I am looking into Fire Teams. Believe me, Coordinated Orders are fine and dandy (for starters), but a Link Team/Fire Team makes a big difference for those 1 Order models.
I'm just leery to do it with something as powerful as the Black Mamba. Multispectral Visor 1 with its weapons and BS would make people weep and gnash their teeth.
Good to know! It just seemed like a natural fit although with the detail below that I didn't know about it may be better suited to HG infantry instead.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
What I was sort of proposing is that for larger games, all of the Squads count as Link Teams. They get certain bonuses (because they're linked), but the big deal about Link Teams is that during YOUR Phase (the Active Phase), when you're moving and shooting with the Team, the whole Team doesn't shoot, but you elect a member of the Team to get the bonuses to take its shots. In Infinity, this means you get a higher Ballistic Skill, and you get an extra 'Burst' (shot) to whatever the weapon is, (as long as it isn't a limited ammo weapon like a Panzerfaust, or in the Heavy Gear Rules, a weapon with Limited Ammo).
This means you could take a guy with an HMG, which is normally Burst 4, and now have a Burst 5 weapon with +3 Ballistic Skill. It is incredibly lethal and dangerous.
Or a Rocket Launcher (or a Bazooka in Heavy Gear's Case) and take it up to Burst 2 or 3.
So obviously you aren't firing with all 5 of the Gears that would make up the Team in the Active turn. You just pick a guy to get helped by his buddies and get all sorts of bonuses.
The thing is, during your Opponent's Turn, (your Reactive Phase), any model that crosses Line of Sight with any model in that Link Team, any of those models can react as individuals and fire at their opponent. AND they all get the added bonuses for being in a Link Team!
So... ARO's (The Infinity term for Reacting in your Opponent's Turn), become very punchy if everyone is in a Link Team. So this might need to be adjusted. That said, you could run them as squads, and limit each side to one Squad that is a 'Link Team' (like Veterans or Elites of some sort). That way the Link Team is dangerous and well organized, and the 'Squads' of guys run on Coordinated Orders, which to cut down on a lot of confusion, allows you to spend one order to command a group of similar models to all do the same thing, like "Move - Move" and so on. They'd still act like a Team, but without all the bonuses.
Another thing to note, is that using the Infinity Rules as is, a Link Team of Striders would only be able to get the first Link Team Bonus, which is +1 Burst. Since they are limited to only being in groups of 3. That leaves the Gears to get the other things like +3 BS and Lvl2 Sixth Sense.
Anyway... if my rambling is confusing, here's the link for how Coordinated Orders work.
Thanks for the details as I didn't know that only one model gets to act on your turn albeit with bonuses as that doesn't work out well with my idea of how gear squads should act. I was under the incorrect impression that they all acted individually under maybe some sort of coherency distance for one order cost. That might work better for infantry ala the "combined model" squads (and not Infinity infantry). It might also be good to deviate from the strict infinity rules for simplicitythere and possibly always have the "link team" infantry act with one model even on AROs instead of occasionally acting with one and then occasionally reacting with each and every model.
You need to cover what the models physically look like - but you don't have to lock yourselves into duplicating what the weapons do in HGB!.
Now is the time to give them unique roles or traits that don't overlap so as to make something else useless and never be used in-game.
I think this bears repeating as it is important when converting to an incompatible ruleset. Just because something shoots at a +1 or fires twice as fast in blitz doesn't mean it needs to do the exact same thing in a completely different ruleset. This isn't directed at Brandon or his rules but rather I think the general statement above needs stressing for anyone reading the thread and thinking about doing their own total conversion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 14:19:45
2014/06/13 14:40:50
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
@warboss - Yeahman. Coordinated Orders are more in line with what you're thinking. You issue an order to a Squad, and all of them do the same thing. So if I have 5 Gears, and give them an order to Move - Move, all the Gears in that Squad move twice.
"-and all that time in Paris, when you were wallowing in debauchery with your doxies, tarts and pirates... you were trying to convince me you were a disgusting, swinish, lecherous, drunken sot... Well I want you to know it worked.
Well done."
2014/06/13 17:51:59
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
They still are mostly like that. South, North, CEF are mostly differentiated by the equipment they can get. GRELs are unique, but don't really have unique rules, just unique stats. (Infantry + silly armor). Granted the newer books have been mucking that up, and PRDF has always been a special snowflake, with the newer book just adding to that.
2014/06/13 18:22:54
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
They still are mostly like that. South, North, CEF are mostly differentiated by the equipment they can get. GRELs are unique, but don't really have unique rules, just unique stats. (Infantry + silly armor). Granted the newer books have been mucking that up, and PRDF has always been a special snowflake, with the newer book just adding to that.
Yeah, not really. In the current books, I see the following rules:
North
ENHANCED SINGLE-USE MUNITIONS
DEDICATED TANK HUNTER INITIATIVE - SNUB CANNON UPGRADE
VETERAN LEADERSHIP
MEMBER STATES
TRADE AGREEMENTS
EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
HAMMERING HEELS
NORTHCO INTRIGUE
SHAIAN MANUFACTURING
WARRIORS OF FAITH
BATTLE CHAPLAINS
INITIATES
FANATICAL DEVOTION
DEEP POCKETS
NORTHERN RIVALRIES
AEGIS OF SECURITY
CORPORATE CONTROLLED WARFARE
AWARENESS
CAMARADERIE
INCOMING!
CONSERVANCY
FLEXIBILITY
PRECISION
SYNERGY
FOREFRONT OF BATTLE
MOVE ‘EM OUT!
WESTERN ALIENATION
AIRMOBILE RESERVES
YOUR CLAN IS YOUR FAMILY
NORTHERN TERRITORIAL RESERVES
PATRONAGE
TENACITY
MAKING DO
...you know what? I was going to do all, but that above is already a fuckton of tiny special case rules. feth that noise.
Also, albeit is true that the latest books are worse, this has been brewing for a long time. When I said 2nd didn't have special rules, I meant it. Hell, even the combat groups were mostly suggestions.
2014/06/13 18:38:40
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Albertorius wrote: In the current books, I see the following rules:
North DEDICATED TANK HUNTER INITIATIVE - SNUB CANNON UPGRADE
MEMBER STATES [NG]
TRADE AGREEMENTS [NG]
EXPEDITIONARY FORCE [NG]
NORTHCO INTRIGUE [NAF]
SHAIAN MANUFACTURING [NAF]
NORTHERN RIVALRIES [UMFA]
CORPORATE CONTROLLED WARFARE [UMFA]
MOVE ‘EM OUT! [WFPA]
WESTERN ALIENATION [WFPA]
AIRMOBILE RESERVES [WFPA]
YOUR CLAN IS YOUR FAMILY [WFPA]
...you know what? I was going to do all, but that above is already a fuckton of tiny special case rules.
And only these had already existed in some form or another in either Hammers of Faith or L&L before Lion's Wrath got processed.
Guess who most all of that excess came from, too, or as a directive to "add something here."
Albertorius wrote: Hell, even the combat groups were mostly suggestions.
I still kind of admire how the SilCore Miniature Rules Book had the combat groups, like how the Leagueless got done in L&L, with the more open but "use these types of models here" format as in the army list books.
I also saw yesterday that the greedy fethers at DP9no longer sell it for free. Do they honestly think someone is going to buy it anymore, problems and all? WTF !
_
_
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:06:33
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/13 18:46:33
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
with sarcasm = True: Look, you can't possibly differentiate factions by having different mix of weapons (not different weapon, different proportions of) or different solutions to the same problems. The only way to differentiate factions is to give them all similar but different weapons, different cost and special rules.
2014/06/13 18:49:44
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
mrondeau wrote: Look, you can't possibly differentiate factions by having different mix of weapons (not different weapon, different proportions of) or different solutions to the same problems. The only way to differentiate factions is to give them all similar but different weapons, different cost and special rules.
Wait wait wait wait. You mean you shouldn't have up-teen million weapons? There are several Paxton execs that need to have a work with you.
2014/06/13 20:08:14
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
2014/06/13 20:38:50
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
I'll swing by Origins to say hello to Oneeye, but that's about it. My enthusiasm for wargaming in general is fairly low right at the moment.
2014/06/13 20:55:28
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Wait wait wait wait. You mean you shouldn't have up-teen million weapons? There are several Paxton execs that need to have a work with you.
I have been informed that while having an infinite number of weapons is indeed optimal, those should all be indentical weapons. Remember that overpaying is the best way to show solidarity with your fellow Terra-Novans, so cruelly nuked recently !
2014/06/13 21:23:13
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
About the quirk about SMS mode giving Gears Motorcycle-speedsbut less balance; in my opinion I'm not too sure, since it doesn't imbalance a Heavy Gear. In fact it’s supposed to make it a little more stable, since it isn’t jostling all over the place.
As Smilodon rightly pointed out, too, Gears’ targeting computers are advanced. They don’t get knocked down with their own weapons’ recoil, since to them a snub cannon would be the equivalent of shooting a shotgun. And while no human being could rightly balance themselves on roller skates while operating a pump-action Mossberg (and I would seriously ask that no one ever try it), Gears could feasibly do it since their ONNETs are devoted to keeping all the little details covered while the pilot focuses on the big picture (not in the way of BOLOs, mind you, ONNETs aren’t that high in intelligence, but you get the idea).
Heavy Gears have several dozen computers running in them. The Technical Manual 2nd Edition details the different types of computer chips that get used for a single Gear.
Cerachips (the advancement of older silicon chips) are simple, rugged, durable, and can be turned out easily. They go into sensor apparatus, interpret data from the three dozen limb functions that are in a Gear’s skeleton, operate communications, interpret body movement, and also register the fire control ballistic computers for the three or four major weapon systems a Gear might be equipped with. Not only that, but oftentimes they’re customizable, with additional port jacks for engineers and technicians to readily change out new sub-systems as needed. Some boast self-diagnosis as well.
Neural nets (the earlier generation) establish pathways by resembling (in some ways) a human brain. Artificially-grown crystal formations are controlled, and the neural nets operate with a much higher speed and almost no heat in comparison to modern computers. They’re fragile, though, so they tend to be placed in shock-proof cases. These are used as the primary CPU in several computers (of which an armored combat vehicle might have two or three, depending).
The optical neural net is a step beyond the neural net. It stores data and transmits through the interaction of photons along molecular-sized crystal pathways.
I might append the speed of some of the smaller Heavy Gears, though. If nothing else, scout Gears are blistering.
The question of Striders and Tanks being given greater number in Squads is, of course, a question of Orders. Since I’m trying to equate Actions with Orders, that makes it all too easy for a 9-order unit to send one strider in to do massive damage to opponents (the T.A.G. Rambo, super-sized… or possibly tank-sized XD).
One of the reasons that I started out by giving the Fire Dragon only 2 Orders was due to its Total Reaction. The Total Reaction, in this case, represents the third crewmember (usually a small-framed female, from what the rumors say) as a gunner who is completely devoted to hitting targets. He or she doesn’t have to focus on doing anything but shooting. Now, in this version, I have them with 3 Orders and Total Reaction. I’ll need to hear how that fits.
I’ve also changed the Wound statistics in this latest version. Wounds are incredibly powerful in Infinity, and while I want to give some Gears greater survivability, I can’t ignore the fact that the weapon systems are equally powerful. So, I’ve appended with the Valor: Dogged special skill as ‘equipment’, representing thick cockpit armor and emergency medical systems that allow the Gear’s pilot to keep spending Orders for his or her Active turn until the Orders stop being spent on it, or it takes another Wound.
warboss wrote: Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
I'll swing by Origins to say hello to Oneeye, but that's about it. My enthusiasm for wargaming in general is fairly low right at the moment.
Understandable... interacting with DP9 professionally seems to have that effect. Have fun in any case and remind him to take and post pics of the HG games!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 23:21:25
2014/06/15 01:58:16
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I also wanted to address some of the issues about weapons and the Gears that would get left out as far as their utility.
I am attempting to make it so that all Gears have some utility. One of the good points about Infinity is that, regardless of the weapon system (unless I describe it as anti-personnel and not being useful against armor), you have a 5% chance of causing a Wound automatically with a Critical roll (rolling your BS range exactly).
That means even the lowly Autocannon can Wound a heavy tank.
In addition, one of the things is that many of the weapon systems have EXP. When that happens, if the weapon strikes, it forces 3 Armor saves. Thus, a rocket pod that normally couldn't be that destructive could force upwards of 9 Armor saves on a heavy tank (Chemical, Killionaire, do please correct me if I'm misremembering).
One thing I've added with the new P.A.K. units is the GRELs. I've given them the Fury Frenzy. Meaning that once they cause a Wound, they gain an Impetuous order as described in their personnel stats.
Not all units have it. The tanks, in particular, don't, because I figure these will be powerful enough as-is. But let me know what you think.
mrondeau wrote: Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
These are some of those direct quotes I mentioned before from the generalissimo's "you will be banner" messages, which is rather laughable considering virtually nothing I proposed as an original idea actually made it into the book.
So in effect Robert has blamed both his developer(s) and himself for the execution.... ;
"This is your first an last warning, you did a terrible job on the Northern Army List and only the hard work of myself and Saleem saved it, if I see one more comment about this in the DP9 Forum or Facebook page you will be banned forever."
"I have to let you know this, there were so many problems with the Northern Army List its not funny, if it was not for myself and Saleem’s hard work over the last month to fix a few of the problems the ebook would have needed to be scrapped."
"Problems in the army list included leaving out key options in some of the squads and factions that were there since Locked & Loaded that gave flavor to the factions. When Forged in Fire was done we keep all the important swaps and faction options and add a bunch more options. What you can never seam to realize is that a player with an existing army of miniatures will be very pissed off if you remove a miniature or 2 from it and force him to buy replacements, I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal. And for the Tiger fixes I just had to made, the miniature parts include MAC and MRP/9 not a LRP/32 you can’t sell a person a miniature for years and then the army list designer wants to save 5 TV so you have to go by a LRP part and I checked with the spread sheet you adjusted the Tiger Stock down from 47 TV to 40 TV, so 5 TV ain’t that much of a big deal, now is it. And I’m not going to get into all the senseless options that got added.
Thank fully the new edition of Heavy Gear Blitz that we are working on now with reset the game and give us a balanced starting point."
Things solely of my doing that actually ended up in the published book without being vetoed by Saleem or changed by Robert, as best I can recall. Everything else pretty much had to cover a legacy something, or was a directive from either of them that I had to follow;
Spoiler:
* Infantry, Gear, Airmobile, and Special Forces regimental benefits. Primarily this was for how the [Sat Uplink] loadout worked, to save option lines in the combat group listings.
* One loadout per model or variant restriction.
* Putting the shared infantry options into the universal upgrades.
* Skill level restriction for non-veteran and veteran models actually spelled out in full.
* That the sub-type builds in the combat groups didn't share names with each other, or directly copy from other field guides. TPTB are really, really bad about this detail.
* Wildfire variant including multiple previously separate types of equipment swaps, such as [IRP], [MAC], and [MPZ]. Getting the [HPZ] dropped down to [MPZ] in the first place so there wasn't an additional x20 DM weapon on every single model or variant.
* [MPZ] as part of the Arrow [AGM] variant loadout.
* [HPZ] as part of the Assault [snub] model loadout, and as part of the UC (Urban Combat [FGC]) model loadout.
* Spearhead loadout not just being a basic [HAC] swap.
* Fang variant [LBZK] being a loadout of the Strike [MBZK] for certain models.
* Headhunter allowed variants.
* Flak, Stalking, Night, and SECCOM variants or models being based on the Strike Cheetah.
* Silver Cat model having ECCM instead of ECM.
* Thunder Grizzly [Autopilot] and some TV saving changes such as MRP/36 and LGM.
* Similar changes to the Rabid Thunder Grizzly.
* Stalking Jaguar model, and the Flash [SLC] variant being on the Stalking (sniper) models.
* How the "lower-end" Night models actually ended up.
* Mountain loadouts that weren't in NVC 1.
* Saboteur variants adding the SKG (Reloads).
* Storm Hunter Commando variant.
* Ferret Mk 1 Paratrooper model not being called the Flying Squirrel.
* The eventual Wolf light Strider loadouts for models and variants, costed as a counter to the Naga, but deleted completely to add Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea.
* Brawler Mammoth having 2xMAAC instead of just 2xMAC.
* Stalling out on not adding an (AE) attack for heavy railguns.
* The Bandit Hunter Klemm and Hunter XMG losing [+Sensors] given that they both carry an MRP pack, which is a combination found on virtually no other model for any Blitz! faction.
* Master Aller, and the model not ending up as a carrier for MAAC sentry drone turrets.
* Changes to the Mad Dog model such as [Reinforced Armor: Front 2] to make it worthwhile.
* Hunter XMG restricted to Wildfire [HIRP] or Assault [SC] variants in the GP so there wasn't MRPs on +ATK models aside from the standard Tiger's low RoF MRP. However, this XMG variant can no longer be taken as [General] because it got put onto the Assault datacard, which is a [Veteran] swap.
* The Arrow Hunter [AGM + MPZ] was supposed to be available as (1) per squadron in any of the sub-types. Instead it's now on the Assault datacard.
* 2iC option line in the Recon squadron.
* Standard Cheetah cost adjustment.
* Cost adjustments to the various Ferret and Weasel type models for their actual performance compared to the pitiful amount the VCS said they should cost.
* Two different [Veteran] option lines in the Strike squadron allowing swaps from either Hunter or Jaguar models to Grizzly and KodiakDestroyer-variants for the best choice of costing, and to balance how other option lines affected the sub-type builds.
* Dragoon squadrons starting with SD Hunters in each of the sub-type builds.
* An option line for Kodiak models in the Dragoon CG.
* Pathifinder [Rifle] loadout to reflect the Recon component - an option which AL13N absolutely hated, so I'm surprised it isn't gone, even though it lets players move existing models around in their force.
* Which infantry platoons had which weapon options.
* How the [Faction Allowed Model Swaps] rule was worded, and that all of the swaps worked and were still appropriate to the factions.
* That the multipurpose and iconic Dragoon combat group type was not affected by the double [Veteran] tax of the later changed [Faction Exclusive Combat Groups] rule.
* [Airdroppable] trait for Sabertooth in the NorGuard Cat's Paws (Ranger) exclusive CG type, now allowed for the UMFA too by a Robert change.
* More down-to-earth loadout(s) for the NorGuard Juggernaut infantry transport Strider from what AL13N and Saleem envisioned, and starting the combat group with the Pathfinder [2xHRF] variant instead of the overly powerful [2xVLFG] standard model.
* [Hammering Heels] rule for NAF.
* Panda-style waist mounted dual-FGCs on the Grizzly Initiate model.
* The NAF faction exclusive combat groups and their ability to get a full platoon of infantry plus (5) Gear models, although the infantry attachment idea was a directive from Saleem to fit with [Hammering Heels].
* Field Armor for Badger models.
* UMFA [Deep Pockets] rule not being a clone of the SRA [Well Funded] rule.
* The UMFA faction exclusive combat groups, although the Ashington Royals (Strider) sub-type was later gutted to accommodate Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea. Whose base cost he was unable to add correctly even though it only starts with (3) models.
* The entire Northern Territorial Reserves (NTR) concept, excepting how the [Tenacity] rule ended up, so everything could be in one book unlike each previous field guide.
mrondeau wrote: That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
Yeah, that has definitely become pretty apparent over this Spring and late Winter.
After his two word "YOUR BANNER" message I haven't heard a thing from him.
But there is simply no way he is going to respond to a post that tears apart his rant and raves to show where all of these perceived "problems" were pretty much exclusively of his own doing.
"Now I did a job; and got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words in regard to my character. So let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."- Mal Reynolds, Firefly
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:04:16
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
Believe me, Coordinated Orders are fine and dandy (for starters), but a Link Team/Fire Team makes a big difference for those 1 Order models.
