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 warboss wrote:
If they're "celebrities", they'll likely announce it later.

Are you kidding?
Robert & Dave are celebrities - why else would folks want their autographs?!

Man, it's like you stopped drinking the cool-aide or something.

Hm, for some reason, there are people over at the pod forums that are bent on making it look as if my problem with the current fluff (specifically the NuCoal... but well, yeah) is the state it ends in.

It's not.

My problem is still that the chains of events needed to reach there (at least as depicted in the fluff) range from barely believable to raging stupid, and mostly are at the raging stupid end of that scale. They, quite simply, completely failed on selling it to me via their setting recounting. Just plain too much stupidity, Deus ex Machina, retconning, GMNPCs and magical humanist technology needed for the stuff to happen as stated in the book.

Seriously, I've had bought it much easier if they just had shut up and went "yeah, it's always been that way. Now get on with it". That way at least it could have been made to make sense.

I'm curious to see what the folks who were responsible for that do with the RPG and/or the nublitz beta fluff. I like alot of the nucoal models but I agree that the fluff is suspect to put it mildly (and i don't even follow the fluff much). I can largely ignore the fluff though in games and tend to focus more on them screwing up the crunch personally.

 warboss wrote:
I'm curious to see what the folks who were responsible for that do with the RPG and/or the nublitz beta fluff. I like alot of the nucoal models but I agree that the fluff is suspect to put it mildly (and i don't even follow the fluff much). I can largely ignore the fluff though in games and tend to focus more on them screwing up the crunch personally.

Yeah, even I think the cruch is very important, although being more interested in the RPG side of the stuff, the fluff problems raise my anger somewhat more. In a perfect world, they'd get both correctly. Or at least, passable and playable.

As it is now, though, I've been consistently impressed and surprised by other companies and consistently let down and dissapointed by the pod. For example, the guys from Hawk Wargames seem to be doing right for DZC each and everything the pod is doing wrong for Heavy Gear. And even liking a lot what HW is doing... the state of HG saddens me a lot. Each year they seem to be nearing the grave even more, losing market share and letting other, more dynamic, ambitious and... well, competent companies surpass them.

I do hope Arkrite rises to the challenge and manage to get some good stuff out of the license.

We'll I'm pretty disappointed that the new edition is a kick starter. I've never done one and if it doesn't raise enough for a book than that's just it? Have fun with the beta rules and keep buying our models? I was gonna wait for the new book and I still hope it will exist but I'm starting to doubt.
I think I'm gonna start looking for an alternate rule set. Anyone recommend a generic sci fi war game that will handle heavy gear style battles

 jedi76 wrote:
We'll I'm pretty disappointed that the new edition is a kick starter. I've never done one and if it doesn't raise enough for a book than that's just it? Have fun with the beta rules and keep buying our models? I was gonna wait for the new book and I still hope it will exist but I'm starting to doubt.
I think I'm gonna start looking for an alternate rule set. Anyone recommend a generic sci fi war game that will handle heavy gear style battles

Gruntz could? Depending on your preference you could stat the gears as the baseline gruntz sqauds fairly easily i'd imagine, or just roll them all as walker vehicles and use them like a skirmish game?

 Albertorius wrote:
They, quite simply, completely failed on selling it to me via their setting recounting. Just plain too much stupidity, Deus ex Machina, retconning, GMNPCs and magical humanist technology needed for the stuff to happen as stated in the book.

 warboss wrote:
I like alot of the nucoal models but I agree that the fluff is suspect to put it mildly (and i don't even follow the fluff much)..

There is a fine line between science fiction and science fantasy (typically illustrated by space opera settings) that Jason and the other production folks missed completely.

So yeah, there is a clear difference that isn't going to change no matter how many folks try to make it about you not seeing the "correct big picture." And man, does that kind of bs response to the problem get so old.

 warboss wrote:
I can largely ignore the fluff though in games and tend to focus more on them screwing up the crunch personally.

 Albertorius wrote:
Yeah, even I think the crunch is very important, although being more interested in the RPG side of the stuff, the fluff problems raise my anger somewhat more. In a perfect world, they'd get both correctly. Or at least, passable and playable.

They definitely seem to be done caring about either part in any fashion whatsoever, at least at the Pod.

 jedi76 wrote:
I think I'm gonna start looking for an alternate rule set. Anyone recommend a generic sci fi war game that will handle heavy gear style battles.

The general consensus seems to be that there really isn't one at the moment, as most focus on either complex gameplay, skirmish-oriented figures, or complete mecha bash without much in between.
Another problem is that many games take a WW2-style or Cold War approach that either doesn't factor in high technology or else makes some very poor interpretations of how the tactics should evolve.
The whole point of tanks, APCs, improved infantry armor, and then finally power armor or practical [Walker] vehicles is to allow maneuver under fire. Yet almost always a ruleset still incorporates some kind of suppression or pinning element.
There is a big difference between suppression and overwatch; most games get it wrong. Revealing your position on a computerized battlefield by blazing away without a target should be a very bad thing.


So far, as research into the question, I've been looking at elements of;


List of free "sci-fi" oriented rulesets.

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Hopefully this isn't posted elsewhere... but looks like Heavy Gear is doing a kickstarter for the rulebook only.

http://ttfix.blogspot.ca/2014/08/dream-pod-9-heavy-gear-blitz.html

They're quite clear that there will be no minis. Just the rulebook...

I personally think this is a huge mistake... you're not going to get many players in with just the rulebook.

It is what we've been talking about for the past two pages.

I think a rulebook only KS is not a bad idea as that is what they are trying to fund

if you bring minis into it you may get more pledges, but they will probably be for minis only from existing players (or those using the minis as proxys), and they'll want better discounts than internet discounters too (which will upset your other retailers)

neither of which really give you money to spend printing the rule book

so go for a minimum cost rulebook only KS and at least you find out if there is any real interest in your game any more (which from the sound of the thread is open to question)

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I personally think this is a huge mistake... you're not going to get many players in with just the rulebook.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
[..]at least you find out if there is any real interest in your game any more (which from the sound of the thread is open to question)

Unfortunately, Robert, the DP9 president, doesn't think like that, or at least in those terms.
He fully expects everyone to believe whatever he comes up with is a good idea, so that they will then spread the word wherever they can regardless of past reality, and that folks will come out of the woodwork to throw $$$ at him when he asks.
Additionally, he is firm in the mindset that anyone who doesn't immediately believe what or how he does, or do exactly as he says no matter how impossible, is insulting his person and hating on his company.


You'll notice in his posts or video interviews that he waxes more than a touch grandiose when talking about the company's following or exposure.
In actuality there are about three dozen (36) somewhat active posters on the Pod forums, maybe a dozen or two (12-24) different folks over on Facebook, and maybe another half dozen or so (6) different folks between the Heavy Gear & HG:Assault communities for G+.
Even doubling that figure to account for players who don't post or never register on those kinds of sites isn't exactly what I think another gaming company would consider a reasonable "following."

Because basically, yes, Dream Pod 9 really has driven off or lost the interest of most everyone else that was actively talking about or playing the game even just a year ago.
The interestingly silly thing about that is how TPTB don't seem to care one little bit about losing chunks of their player-base or the ripples of discontent those dissatisfied folks cause on sites the Pod leadership never frequents.

Finally, there is some media coverage of DP9 from Gencon from a youtuber. The interesting part for me (and maybe I'm ready too much into it) is when Robert accidentally photobombs the interview and Dave physically stops him at around 8:15. The interviewer jokes "Ha Ha you're fired!" and Dave follows up with a smug and seemingly completely unnecessary "He can't fire me". Is he part owner of the company now? Or is the response likely more due to him being both the chief rules developer of the savior edition of HG along with the guy who physically makes the minis? In any case, it seemed completely unnecessary to add even if completely true.

 doc1234 wrote:
Gruntz could? Depending on your preference you could stat the gears as the baseline gruntz sqauds fairly easily i'd imagine, or just roll them all as walker vehicles and use them like a skirmish game?

Gruntz could - it's got the concepts of combined arms fairly well, though it tends to think of walkers as battletech style mechs rather than IFV style armor. You might find that it doesn't quite capture the VOTOMS feel exactly, but you'll be fairly happy I think.

It's not that this Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's that it's a ridiculous idea. The company is 20 years old for sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF.

I love Heavy Gear, I really do. The setting is amazing, the art is amazing, and the minis are pretty cool. But holy damn, DP9, could you start acting like professionals for five minutes?

Just wanted to vent.

 Firebreak wrote:
It's not that this Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's that it's a ridiculous idea. The company is 20 years old for sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF.

I love Heavy Gear, I really do. The setting is amazing, the art is amazing, and the minis are pretty cool. But holy damn, DP9, could you start acting like professionals for five minutes?

Just wanted to vent.

So what's your opinion of R. Talsorian Games doing a Kickstarter project to put out a new edition of Mekton Zero?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1888572386/mekton-zero/

As far as I understand it, they've got the same reason for the project: Funding for better artwork and to produce a better version of the book than they could otherwise afford.

I don't have any issue with a KS being *just* for a book. I'd obviously prefer a full fledged release with plastic starter minis but I don't really have any faith in DP9 succeeding in something like that even if they had the will... which I don't think they do. If they switch to plastics and the new rules don't end up selling well, Dave will be out of both of his jobs at the company. At least with metal minis, he still has one to fall back on if the other fails.

In any case, I don't plan on pledging past a PDF and that is ONLY if they don't screw me out of using my existing minis yet again. If they do accomplish the latter for the 3rd time (not including the times they prematurely retired books to double dip for cash), I'll bid the princely sum on $1 so that I can comment for eternity.

 solkan wrote:

 Firebreak wrote:
It's not that this Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's that it's a ridiculous idea. The company is 20 years old for sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF.

I love Heavy Gear, I really do. The setting is amazing, the art is amazing, and the minis are pretty cool. But holy damn, DP9, could you start acting like professionals for five minutes?

Just wanted to vent.

So what's your opinion of R. Talsorian Games doing a Kickstarter project to put out a new edition of Mekton Zero?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1888572386/mekton-zero/

As far as I understand it, they've got the same reason for the project: Funding for better artwork and to produce a better version of the book than they could otherwise afford.

Perfectly fine with that, there hasn't been (as far as I can tell - never played, little to no knowledge of the thing, correct me if I'm wrong) a release for 14 years. Heavy Gear isn't re-launching. This is like GW kickstartering 9th edition. I get that (hopefully) whatever the KS results in will be a better product than had they not done it - lord knows the Pod can't edit or proofread for crap - but a 20 year old company and game going to Kickstarter to put out a new edition that they've already been working just smacks of mishandling. They should have an artist, model painters, copy writers, all the things the KS is for, that should all be there, already. I know they're a small company, with like, what, 4 people on actual staff, and the rest have day-jobs? But one of those part-timers should be an artist they've been paying for the past three years or however long they've been working on this, for new art. One of those people should be a professional painter. And a graphic designer, and so on. I love the Pod, but they handle their resources terribly, and asking people to give them MORE for something they should be able to do themselves at this point just seems incredibly stupid.

You know the thing about kickstarter too? Nothing says you actually have to spend all of that money on developing a product. Especially not one you were going to do anyway.

So what I predict will happen is that we'll see the exact same quality as the last few books, with a handful of new art splashes. And the rest goes into the pocket as basically pre-pre-orders.

 solkan wrote:

 Firebreak wrote:
It's not that this Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's that it's a ridiculous idea. The company is 20 years old for sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF.

I love Heavy Gear, I really do. The setting is amazing, the art is amazing, and the minis are pretty cool. But holy damn, DP9, could you start acting like professionals for five minutes?

Just wanted to vent.

So what's your opinion of R. Talsorian Games doing a Kickstarter project to put out a new edition of Mekton Zero?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1888572386/mekton-zero/

As far as I understand it, they've got the same reason for the project: Funding for better artwork and to produce a better version of the book than they could otherwise afford.

R. Talsorian has pretty clearly been on minimal staff for over a decade. I *think* the only real employees (as opposed to contracted help) are Mike Pondsmith and his wife, Lisa. And for quite a while, he was working elsewhere to pay the bills (Microsoft, for instance). There have been releases during that time (Cyberpunk 3.0, which was panned), but they've been sporadic.

In short, the company's been on life support for quite a while, and everyone knows it.

That hasn't stopped Mike Pondsmith from planning what he would put together when he did the Mekton Zero release (which he's talked about for quite a while). He's discussed plans on the Mekton Zeta Mailing List from time to time. But the last Mekton releases were in the mid-90s.



DP9, on the other hand, has had continuous new releases, new games, new rule books, etc... On the surface, there's no reason to think that they're anything other than a healthy company, and seemingly have been that way since they killed all but one of their lines back in the '90s. But if that's the case, then why are they turning to crowd sourcing for the new rules?

I got in to the Mekton kickstarter in a big way. Long-time Cyberpunk GM, always wanted to run Mekton. I've got all the books and quite a few minis for it. Patiently awaiting the new game.

Question: I really need to know if I should pre-order a few boxes of the new Robotech from Paladium game. From what people are saying ( three or four posts I've seen ) there are problems with the minis?

Need help quick, I was going to dump about $1,200 my cost into a big pre-order. Yay or nay? and why, if not too much trouble. I could not make GenCon, so I don't know what is going on.

Eumerin wrote:

DP9, on the other hand, has had continuous new releases, new games, new rule books, etc... On the surface, there's no reason to think that they're anything other than a healthy company, and seemingly have been that way since they killed all but one of their lines back in the '90s. But if that's the case, then why are they turning to crowd sourcing for the new rules?

Because the only lasting effect those new releases, new games, and new rule books had is to alienate the people who support them. Each new idea is christened the best thing since sliced bread despite it screwing over a portion of the existing customer base and the customers are asked to take on for the team to make the game better. Unfortunately, the fans take it on the chin by losing value in their collection for no reason as the game isn't better and the idea is abandoned... but no worries because the company in the 2 years since has come up with a great idea that will improve the game as long as a certain portion of fans don't mind getting screwed over... rinse, lather, repeat.

A good example is 4 gear squads. Southern players lost the previously STANDARD ability to take 4 gears in a squad (most squads started stock as 4 gears) because it was bad for balance. Plenty of squads were screwed up in the switch over back in 2013 (including all but one of my squads in my army in addition to simply losing access to 4 figs completely and losing another half dozen variants)... but it was for the good of the game! Fast forward to 2014 and... guess what guys?!? We're redoing all the GP squads with the new rules and they're all 4 gears standard! DP9 burns through developers like stoners burn through.. well... you know and their latest and greatest ideas are abandoned pretty much within two products. The cool new TPS gear squad style? Abandoned after only two books. The "balance" changes that screwed over players with FIF who bought all those MILICIA figs? Lasted less than a year privately with internal playtesting and about a year and a half with public knowledge.

I suspect that in 2017 or at the latest 2018 we'll all be talking about that kick ass new edition that DP9 is coming out with that will fix all the problems that the Gencon 2015 edition had. Seriously... look at the dates on the editions and you'll see that they only last 2-3 years with DP9 before they hit the reset button and devalue all your previous purchases to next to nothing yet they never seem to get it right as it is always two steps forward and one fall flat on your butt back.

That's why they need to kickstart this. They've burned through the good will of all but maybe 2-3 dozen players seemingly as those are the only people who seem to care. I guess we'll see how many actually exist in October. I've been wrong about gamers in the recent past with Robotech so I can't say for sure but I am curious just how many of the potential silent majority come out of the woodwork to support the book. Not many came out for the dual failed video game kickstarters but I suspect/hope that the goals for the book will only be in the tens of thousands and not some ridiculous number.

 warboss wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

DP9, on the other hand, has had continuous new releases, new games, new rule books, etc... On the surface, there's no reason to think that they're anything other than a healthy company, and seemingly have been that way since they killed all but one of their lines back in the '90s. But if that's the case, then why are they turning to crowd sourcing for the new rules?

Because the only lasting effect those new releases, new games, and new rule books had is to alienate the people who support them.

The question was rhetorical.



I'm also one of the people that's been burned by them. As I've mentioned before, I was pretty hyped about Arena. There's some real potential in the rules. But there are a few areas that just don't work, and there was never any attempt by DP9 to fix the problem spots.

I was also a long-time Jovian Chronicles fan, but that setting was abandoned a long time ago.

The online game has the potential to change things, if it ever sees a full release, and if it is established in time for the Kickstarter. Of course, the problem with THAT is that people who have been loving that game, will look at the minis and go "Huh? That's not a Hunter. Where are the ACTUAL Gears?"

....thus necessitating a Kickstarter for a new model line.

 Firebreak wrote:
The online game has the potential to change things, if it ever sees a full release, and if it is established in time for the Kickstarter. Of course, the problem with THAT is that people who have been loving that game, will look at the minis and go "Huh? That's not a Hunter. Where are the ACTUAL Gears?"

Wait...

The gears in the video game don't look like the figures?

Er...

What's the point of licensing a setting if you're not going to actually *use* the recognizable parts of the setting!?

They're modernizing them. Some IMO turned out great like the hunter but others turned out badly (like the Jager) with the warrior just in between. We haven't seen any others yet that I know of.

 IceRaptor wrote:
At any rate, DP9's presence at Gencon was very low-key. They had a single booth, with three demo tables, a full display case and the Beta rules. They had some stock, and plenty of the rebranded GP squads, but that was about it. I spent some time there and it seemed like con-goers were enjoying themselves; there was about a 30-40% conversion rate for most demo tables which felt fairly good. What that translates to in terms of future sales is beyond me.

Just from the booth and presentation, I suspect DP9 is sliding into oblivion. It feels like just before L&L was released, but there doesn't appear to be a Mason to revamp the presentation into the glossy, professional format that seem to percolate through the market currently. I'll be interested to see how they fair, but I'm not terribly optimistic.

 warboss wrote:
Finally, there is some media coverage of DP9 from Gencon from a youtuber.

For an interview which was "planned" as part of the KS that guy did to get to Gencon in the first place it came off as rather unprofessional in my opinion, from both of them.
It shouldn't have taken that long to prep and rehearse a bit for a not even twelve minute long clip.
And yeah, el presidente looked a tad constipated there for a moment when Dave arm-blocked him out of frame.

As for the Pod presence, wow, looking at the four (4) whole pics Robert posted to the forums and Facebook, along with IceRaptor's comment, it sure seems like they weren't all that interested in actually selling stock of any kind.

There is no way it is a good idea to deliberately travel to the largest gaming convention of the year, after reserving/renting a booth space, and not take anything that isn't nailed down at the home office that is in a condition to be sold.
I think this illustrates very well what folks have been saying about Robert and his leadership of the Pod; he focuses on one idea at a time as if that "shiny" cannot possibly be anything but 100% accepted and drops everything else.

Not even allowing the choice of buying previous products that might attract those not otherwise interested in the current offerings, at yet another venue where most have never heard of either DP9 or Heavy Gear. Smart, oh so smart.

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I forgot that was the guy who kept advertising his "pay me to go to gencon" kickstarter. I agree though that both his interviews that I watched (Robotech and HG) were quite unprofessional and seemingly ad hoc. It seems like he pretty much just thought about it for 30 seconds before each and just asked what came to mind instead of having prepared. I'd say they were noticeably worse in quality and flow than his normal standard as I've watched a bunch of his unboxing videos and they're alot better.

Eumerin wrote:Wait...

The gears in the video game don't look like the figures?

Er...

What's the point of licensing a setting if you're not going to actually *use* the recognizable parts of the setting!?

Yeah, I admit to a face-palm when I saw this. There was a couple day discussion on the DP9 forums that went something like this:

"Look, we found a concept art for the new Iguana that got leaked." (Note: I may be mistaking the gear models, but this was actually a semi-real leak, as it was on a concept artist's personal deviant art page.)
"They got a bunch of things wrong." (Follow with a list of details,)
"Developer here, the art that is being discussed isn't an Iguana, it's actually a Black Mamba."

So, basically, they're taking a lot of liberties with the designs. Some are probably for reasonable reasons: they're apparently using some skeletal systems intended for humans, and Gears are human-ish, but they wanted to trim down the belly areas a bit, as well as adding a lot of customization bits. I.E. the spiked shoulder armor from the Iguana is now a common Southern 'thing' as an option.

In general, I'd give Arkwrite the best odds of being 'true to the setting' right now, but I haven't read their fiction release or had any contact with those guys for about a year. They do seem to care, though, and aren't rushing things.

I've got some notes and half-written ideas for an improved Arena game at home. Arena was a neat idea that could probably be an interesting post mortem if someone a step closer to it than me wanted to. I feel there were a lot of ideas thrown in to a pot and they all got used, even though some didn't quite work. Some good ideas, and potential to build a game that had a reasonably cheap, affordable buy-in with lots of options to expand.

I won't go into much detail on my ideas for a new version as they're unfinished and might step on the toes of anyone doing a 'real' version and, frankly, they're bad in their own unique way unrelated to the current game. :( I took a few ideas and re-used them for a simple beer & pretzels-ish 'space mecha duel' that could be Jovian Chronicles themed. I'm not doing much work on it right now due to mood issues and not sure if I want to try to get permission to release it as a print & play freebie.

Then again, there may be very good reasons I'm not a game designer. I will say some of my early drafts would have involved some really fiddly card mechanics on top of the existing Silhouette-based mechanics. I think I've got those down to something sane that doesn't require quite as much work to keep things straight, although I'd consider going back to the Arena idea if I had a bunch of free time. It was based around each turn making a stack of desired special maneuver cards that had to be executed in order, with some support for breaking combos that meant you weren't guaranteed to get through your stack... In general, there were comments that HGA was "pro wrestling" inspired. My draft was meant to be more '2d fighting game' inspired. It's completely missing a lot of the customization and such that HGA needs, though... And I'm not sure that can be added without making it too ungainly.

Ironically, the new Heavy Gear video game designs might get sold as 3d prints. I'm really hoping they do as I'd like to use the new hunter (which I really like) as an XMG.



I haven't seen any news on it (cost, scale, etc) since they announced the partnership with sandboxr and put out this pic.

Heavy Gear is dying a slow death, and I think anything short of a huge kickstarter including new rules and miniatures isn't going to slow it down. As mentioned in this thread, people try to get into it, but this game has more barriers to entry then most mini games (overly complex rules, expensive minis, lack of availability etc).

Reaper is apparently launching a kickstarter for their mech game, which if it's halfway decent might steal the few remaining HG fans.