Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello! I'm a new player to FOW and me and a friend have been playing a few games and I can't seem to beat his Welsh guards rifle company with my grey wolf toenkopf panzers! Any advice, as well as tactics vs infantry companies are much appreciated!!! I've learned that sporadic air support isn't worth it...


Here's the lists we've been using:

German:
Panzerkampfgruppe HQ (Panzer)
CinC Panzer IV H, 2iC Panzer IV H

Compulsory Biermeyer's SS Panzer Platoon
Command Panzer IV H, 2x Panzer IV H

Compulsory SS Panzer Platoon
command stug, 2x stug

SS Panzergrenadier Platoon
Command MG, 6x MG, pfaust command

Heavy SS-Tank Platoon
Command Tiger I E, Tiger I E

SS-Aufklarungs Platoon
Command MG, Sd Kfz 250/10 (3.7cm) half-track, 4x MG, 2x Sd Kfz 250 half-track, command pfaust

SS-Rocket Launcher Battery
Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher

Air Support
Sporadic Hs 129B


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Welsh Guards
Compulsory Guards Rifle Company HQ
1x CinC Rifle, 1x 2iC Rifle

Compulsory Guards Rifle Platoon
1x Command Rifle/MG, 1x PIAT, 1x Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG

Compulsory Guards Rifle Platoon
1x Command Rifle/MG, 1x PIAT, 1x Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG

Guards Armoured Recce Platoon
1x Command Cromwell IV, 1x Cromwell IV, 1x Challenger A30

Guards Armoured Recce Platoon
1x Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, 1x Challenger A30

Machine-gun Platoon
1x Command Rifle, 2x Vickers HMG

Heavy Mortar Platoon
1x Command Rifle, 1x Observer Rifle, 2x ML 4.2” mortar

Field Battery, Royal Artillery
1x Independent Command Rifle, 1x Independent Staff, 1x Command Rifle, 1x Observer Rifle, 1x OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun
1x Replace Observer Rifle and OP Carrier with Sherman OP

Air Support
Priority Typhoon

Air Observation Post
1x Auster AOP




So far we've played fair fight and surrounded scenarios. Points are barely off, but we agreed that's ok

Could you give us any information on how you both play? Do you both utilise smoke rounds and bombardments, for example? What do you tend to target first, what does he tend to target first, and how do things really play out?

Lets see...

I do utilize bombardments, but not really smoke rounds, I always see to not place my observer in the best place when i need smoke.

I usually find my stugs and panzer iv's fighting toe to toe with the cromwell/challenger platoons most of the game. I can't seem to destroy his infantry and really get in there.

I do notice that I don't usually play super aggressive, but when I do with some units, they end up getting destroyed. I think my biggest problem is dealing with the mass british infantry...

If your HQ can take a panther recovery vehicle, you should, as its a great bodyguard tank.

You should consider dropping the Aufklarungs platoon, and replace them with some AA mobile light tank, as its great vs infantry and adding protection against air, plus it moves with your mobile force.

I would also drop the extra tiger and the stugs for some more armor.

You have 2 short platoons, the 3 PzIVs and the Aufks. One or the other (or Both) needs to be at full strength for maximum results. Esp when the PzIVs are shot at as if they were trained (IIRC)

Facing AT15 Challengers, the Tiger1s aren't the best option either.

Looks like you are playing 1835pts

I'd try something like this:
Compulsory SS-Panzerkampfgruppe HQ (Panzer) - CinC Panzer IV H, 2iC Panzer IV H (200 pts)

Compulsory Biermeyer's SS Panzer Platoon - Command Panzer IV H, 4x Panzer IV H (325 pts)

Compulsory SS Panzer Platoon - Command StuG G or StuG IV, 2x StuG G or StuG IV (325 pts)

Gepanzerte SS Panzergrenadier Platoon - Command MG, 6x MG, 4x Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track (260 pts)
- Command Upgrade - Upgrade Command MG to Command Panzerfaust SMG (10 pts)
- MG Team Upgrade - 3x Upgrade MG to Panzerfaust MG (only if 6xMG) (30 pts)

Armoured SS Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon - Command Armoured Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm), Armoured Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm) (125 pts)

Armoured SS Mortar Platoon - Command SMG, Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 2x Sd Kfz 251/2 (8cm) (110 pts)

SS-Aufklarungs Platoon - Command MG, Sd Kfz 250/10 (3.7cm) half-track, 6x MG, 3x Sd Kfz 250 half-track (260 pts)
- Command Upgrade - Replace Command MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (10 pts)

Heavy SS-Panzerspah Patrol - Command Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad), Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad) (90 pts)

SS-Rocket Launcher Battery - Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (90 pts)

1835 Points, 8 Platoons

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone!

@Big Mac: I will def. play with recovery vehicles, I played one game where my 1inc took over a bergepanther!

@AndrasOtto: I like the list, I think you're right, like Big Mac, to suggest taking out the Tigers. Also, I believe the challengers are AT13, but nonetheless, I like the list.


I recently stumbled upon the Panzers to the Meuse PDF that had been recently updated to V3, and created a new panzer lehr list. Apologizes to put another, different list out there, but instead of creating a whole new thread, how you feel this would stand against that same British list? Also what do you think I should use the aprox. 200 points towards?

2in would join the P4 squad to make it 4 - 1inc would probably join panthers

Panzerkompanie HQ (Lehr)
2 Panzer IV J
1 Bergepanther

Panzer Platoon (Lehr)
3 Panzer IV J

Panzer Platoon (Lehr)
3 Panther G

Panzer Anti-aircraft Gun Platoon (Lehr)
3 Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm)

Panzerspäh Platoon (Lehr)
6 Sd Kfz 234/1 (2cm) [Three squads of two]

Volks Rocket Launcher Battery
3 15cm nebels

The BergePanther is a Transport Team, not a Tank Team, it is not an eligible vehicle for a Warrior Tank Team to take it over. Warrior Tank Teams can only take over other Tank teams, those listed in the Tank section of the Arsenal.


A couple comments though,
1) don't take minimum sized PzIV platoons. Low front armor means you have to assume 2/3 will be destroyed by penetrating hits. At long range they can only save against US Tank Destroyers on a 6.
2) Volks Rockets are nearly worthless. They are Trained, which means they can be 'Fire in the Sky'd on 4s, and the are Reluctant, meaning once hit, they will be difficult to unpin. The only Volks Rocket platoon I'd consider is a cheap 30cm unit, and consider it a one shot unit. 2PD can take the Panzer Rockets, which are CV.
3) Always take a platoon of Aufklarungs with a PttM pdf Panzer list. It gives you Always Attacks and Spearhead.
4) Get another platoon of PzIVs. 10 is the LW minimum for a PzIV company. 2+4+4.
5) Lehr needs PzIVs and Aufks. 2PD needs Panthers and Aufks. Don't take both Panthers and PzIVs.
6) 2 patrols of Pumas will be better then 3 patrols of 234/1s
7) If your 1iC joins the Panthers he will get picked off, if not via guntanking, then because he has the lowest armor and the first hit has to go on him. Stick both HQ tanks with the PzIVs.

2PD= 5 Panthers, Aufks, Panzer Rockets
Lehr=10 PzIVs, Aufks, moto arty

Here's a couple lists using 1835pts.

Panzer (2nd)

Compulsory Panzerkompanie HQ - CinC Panther G, 2iC Panther G (375 pts)

Compulsory Panther Platoon - Command Panther G, 2x Panther G (560 pts)

Compulsory Gepanzerte Aufklarungs Platoon - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 250 half-track (285 pts)
- Command Upgrade - Replace Command Panzerfaust MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (0 pts)
- Tank Hunter - Tank-hunter (20 pts)

Assault Gun Platoon - Command StuG G, 2x StuG G (285 pts)

Panzerspah Platoon - 2x Command Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma, 2x Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma (200 pts)

Panzer Rocket Launcher Battery - Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (105 pts)

1830 Points, 6 Platoons


Panzer (Lehr)

Compulsory Panzerkompanie HQ - CinC Panzer IV J, 2iC Panzer IV J (175 pts)

Compulsory Panzer Platoon - Command Panzer IV J, 3x Panzer IV J (350 pts)

Compulsory Gepanzerte Aufklarungs Platoon - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 250 half-track (285 pts)
- Command Upgrade - Replace Command Panzerfaust MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (0 pts)
- Tank Hunter - Tank-hunter (20 pts)

Panzer Platoon - Command Panzer IV J, 3x Panzer IV J (350 pts)

Panzer Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon - Command Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm), 2x Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm) (165 pts)

Panzerspah Platoons (275pts)
4x Pumas
2x 234/1s

Motorised Artillery Battery - Command SMG, Staff, 2x Observer Rifle, 4x 10.5cm leFH18/40 howitzer (215 pts)

1835 Points, 8 Platoons

thanks @AndrasOtto The points and the two lists are SUPER helpful. I think I'm leaning towards the panther list, because I have most of the units compared to the Lerh.

I feel like I'm going to run into the same problems though when I'm playing up against this welsh guards.

@AndrasOtto (or anyone) do you have any experience/tactics as playing a panzer list vs an infantry list that you could share?

- Should I use the nebels more so for launching smoke to block?

- biritsh get their indirect fire at longer ranges, should I move in rather than stay further out to negate this?

- both 1st and 2nd in commands should attach to the panther platoon?


apologizes for the lot of n00b questions*

First off, I don't think your opponent can have the heavy 4.2" mortars AND HMGs in that list. 3" Mortars and HMGs yes, but not the 4.2" Heavies.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
First off, I don't think your opponent can have the heavy 4.2" mortars AND HMGs in that list. 3" Mortars and HMGs yes, but not the 4.2" Heavies.

If it's the list I think it is, he can. There are two spots, one is just HMG's and the other can be HMG's or 4.2" mortars.

 washout77 wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
First off, I don't think your opponent can have the heavy 4.2" mortars AND HMGs in that list. 3" Mortars and HMGs yes, but not the 4.2" Heavies.

If it's the list I think it is, he can. There are two spots, one is just HMG's and the other can be HMG's or 4.2" mortars.

I'm looking at the Welsh Guards Rifle Company from Hell's Highway, but I don't have the book itself in front of me (just EA).

All the other options add up.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
First off, I don't think your opponent can have the heavy 4.2" mortars AND HMGs in that list. 3" Mortars and HMGs yes, but not the 4.2" Heavies.

If it's the list I think it is, he can. There are two spots, one is just HMG's and the other can be HMG's or 4.2" mortars.

I'm looking at the Welsh Guards Rifle Company from Hell's Highway, but I don't have the book itself in front of me (just EA).

All the other options add up.

Upon realization, I realized I clicked the wrong Rifle Company list on EA.

My bad.

What book is the Guards Rifle list from? Hells Highway?

-Ok, looks like it. As mentioned above, the Guards Rifles in HH can't take both HMGs and 4.2" mortars, they come from the same box.

He can have 4 HMGs or 4 4.2" mortars for about the same cost.

The Challengers can be picked off by guntanking, and there's only 2 of them, so easy pickings. Once killed the Panthers s/b able to take care of the rest.

The LW Brit infantry platoons aren't that great. They don't have much integrated anti-tank (one piat mostly) so tanks or a mounted assault can pretty much barge into them at will. If the platoon is pinned and smoked, the PIAT only hits on a 6, and has a FP of 5+.

25pdrs only have a FP of 5+ so I don't get too worked up over them bombarding tanks. First you need to roll a 1 or 2, then he needs to roll a 5+. Basically one in 9 tanks hit will be destroyed. PzIVs have protected ammo so they get back in 75% of the time, and if the1iC is there the Panthers get the reroll also. The Aufklarungs will be a bit more vulnerable so watch out for them.

While Airplanes can't attack close to friendly troops, there's nothing that prevents artillery from bombarding near friendly troops, closeness is no defense.

If you play the Panther list, you might drop one Puma patrol and replace the other with 234/1s to get SPAA tracks to protect from the Typhoons. The new rules make air support deadly against units in the open.

Panzer (2nd)
Compulsory Panzerkompanie HQ - CinC Panther G, 2iC Panther G (375 pts)

Compulsory Panther Platoon - Command Panther G, 2x Panther G (560 pts)

Compulsory Gepanzerte Aufklarungs Platoon - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 250 half-track (285 pts)
- Command Upgrade - Replace Command Panzerfaust MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (0 pts)
- Tank Hunter - Tank-hunter (20 pts)

Panzer Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon - Command Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm), Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm) (110 pts)

Assault Gun Platoon - Command StuG G (late), 2x StuG G (late) (295 pts)

Panzerspah Platoon - Command Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma, Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma (100 pts)
- 234/1 - Replace Command Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma, Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma with Command Sd Kfz 234/1 (2cm), Sd Kfz 234/1 (2cm) (-25 pts)

Panzer Rocket Launcher Battery - Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (105 pts)

1825 Points, 6 Platoons

The StuGs are 295pts, about the same cost as a Gepanzerte PanzerGrens or Aufklarungs platoon (305 w a Tank hunter=1835pts) so you can mix things up by taking a second infantry platoon instead of the StuGs.

Oh yea you're right there about the mortars, i clicked the wrong box, he plays with the 3' ones.

Those tactic explanations and this new list are really helpful, thank you again!


If i plan to make it to 2000 sized, do you think another auflarung platoon would be the best choice?


thanks again all for the advice

2000pts gives you a lot of options, but if you take Panthers and two infantry most of your points are used up right there

5 Panthers; BergePanther
full Aufks w TH
full GepPG w TH
2 234/1s
3 Wirbels
6 NW41s
6plt/2000

If you take three StuGs vice the GPGs(-10), and drop the BergePanther(-15), you can upgrade the 234/1s back to Pumas(+25)

AndrasOtto wrote:
2000pts gives you a lot of options, but if you take Panthers and two infantry most of your points are used up right there

5 Panthers; BergePanther
full Aufks w TH
full GepPG w TH
2 234/1s
3 Wirbels
6 NW41s
6plt/2000

If you take three StuGs vice the GPGs(-10), and drop the BergePanther(-15), you can upgrade the 234/1s back to Pumas(+25)

Why the 6 strong NW41 battery? I know you get double width template with 6 guns, but why in this case? To make platoons even?

I assume it's because you'll be hard-pressed finding anything else to spend as little as 55pts on in a German Panzer list.

 Halkomahooli wrote:

Why the 6 strong NW41 battery? I know you get double width template with 6 guns, but why in this case? To make platoons even?

It gives you 3 smoke templates also. Having 6 NW41s on hand lets you field 4 which is better then three since it gives you 2 smoke templates.

I'm also trying to work with what David appears to have, or can get easily. I'm assuming that another NW blister would be easier for him to get then a Wespe battery or 10.5cm arty.

He can drop the bergepanther and have 110pts to play with by going back down to 3 N41s, but other then Air support, you'll end up with 7 platoons if you get anything else.