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 nels1031 wrote:
I've had a theory that at least one of the inactive traitor Primarchs who are referenced as daemon princes in older fluff, dies during the Heresy or during the Scouring and that Primarchs inner circle covers it up/keeps it a secret to maintain Legion unity and cohesion.

Although thats just wishful thinking on my part, as I think its bogus that only the loyalist Primarchs die fighting or go AWOL. Alpharius (allegedly) Night Haunter and of course Horus are the only traitors to eat it, whereas loyalists start dying right from the get go.

Not really. Only Sanguinius and Manus are confirmed KIA.

And Dorn.

Probably the reason is their personality is slowly becoming absorbed into the greater vortex of their patron power. Their individual is becoming less and less important, until they become an echo who are just a part of the Great Game.

Could you imagine if they did a team-up between Lorgar and magnus, who try to amass a daemonic incursion of unprecedented size, and then King Ultrasmurf himself is removed from stasis to battle them and then gets KILLED?!?!?!

...
That would be cool. Maybe King Bluetard falcon punches lorgar's head off his shoulders and then Magnus mind-bullets the snot out of him. Mmm. This pleases me.

 Daba wrote:
And Dorn.

Dom's been retconned to not be confirmed KIA.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Daba wrote:
And Dorn.

Dom's been retconned to not be confirmed KIA.

Codex Space marines talks about his "final moments" and his "supreme sacrifice."
I think that implies he's dead.

Animus wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Daba wrote:
And Dorn.

Dom's been retconned to not be confirmed KIA.

Codex Space marines talks about his "final moments" and his "supreme sacrifice."
I think that implies he's dead.

Except now we have them only having his hand. He's now MIA.

Also, I forgot about Curze and Horus. The confirmed KIA Primarchs are Curze, Horus, Manus, and Sanguinius (who may have reincarnated -shrug-). So four primarchs down, two unlikely to ever be developed, and that leaves us with fourteen probably alive.

I think at least one of the Alpha Legion Primarchs must be dead. Two reasons for me to think this.

1. Elements of the Alpha Legion have gone full blown Chaos by 40k, this would be more likely without the guiding hand of Alpharius. He seemed way too opposed to Chaos in "Legion" to fall to it. The other Primarchs were all ignorant of chaos until they were already it's pawns, except Lorgar who embraced it knowingly but he was an idiot and just wanted something to believe in.

2. Guilliman killed him. Sure Apharius/Omegon were shorter than other Primarchs, and various other marines would stand in for them at times. But Guilliman is a Primarch, he has been punched in the face by Lorgar, torn into by Curze and fought with Angron. I think he would be in a good position to think, hmm I just ripped my brother in half and it was the easiest thing ever. Primarch's seem to instinctually know one another, they are all bonded by more than just blood. The "I'm Sparticus" trick only seems to be employed against humans and regular Astartes. When dealing with his brothers it can be assumed that only Omegon would stand in for the public image "Alpharius." So at least one of them must be dead. Logically of course, and this is 40k, where logic reigns supreme.

Lorgar is writing crappy chaos fanfics for the enjoyment of the subjects of Chaos.
Perutrabo is too busy building Lego kits.
Fulgrim is too busy catching up on 10 thousand years worth of anime.
Angron and Magnus are actually doing things.
Curze is to busy being a Heart of Darkness reference (and dead)
Mortarion is moping.
Omegon is trying to get a perfect run on Metal Gear Solid while simultaneously posing as every figure of imperial authority.

I think its practical matters really. If all the Daemon Primarchs got up off their ass and participated in a Black Crusade, the war would be over in a very short time. Which would be boring.

 Stormphoenix wrote:
If all the Daemon Primarchs got up off their ass and participated in a Black Crusade, the war would be over in a very short time.

Short for Chaos, yes... These guys hate each other, serve different gods or just plain think the others suck. First they'd rip Failbaddon's spine out through his chest, then the real battle for dominance would start. The crusade would implode on itself long before reaching any Imperial target. One would eventually emerge victorious but he'd have little left of the armies that gathered for a crusade. Easy pickings for the imperials by that time.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Stormphoenix wrote:
If all the Daemon Primarchs got up off their ass and participated in a Black Crusade, the war would be over in a very short time.

Short for Chaos, yes... These guys hate each other, serve different gods or just plain think the others suck. First they'd rip Failbaddon's spine out through his chest, then the real battle for dominance would start. The crusade would implode on itself long before reaching any Imperial target. One would eventually emerge victorious but he'd have little left of the armies that gathered for a crusade. Easy pickings for the imperials by that time.

Except that "canonically" speaking, all the daemon primarchs are implied to be getting off their ass and participating in the 13th Black Crusade, all backing up Abaddon and assisting him after he's apparently earned their respect through a series of deals, gifts, and trials.

CSM frequently fight with each other for domination and resources, but every once in a while they all unite and the galaxy trembles...

It's not that the Daemon Primarchs are lazy...

... it's that most of them don't care. The destruction of the IoM is, to them, a pointless drive, as they (being immortal) will out-last it anyway.

I thought that it was implied that the demon primarchs took part in the 13th black crusade?

Just because I go to the wedding of some people I work with doesn't mean I give a feth about their relationship but, hey, free party, free food, free booze? Sure, I'm in. I can dress up for a dog-and-pony show for that.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Hinted? We have statements and transmitted visual proof of an assassin beheading the Night Haunter and the Night Lords confirming he's dead. Curze is just as dead as Manus, who is also missing a head and certainly KIA with nothing that either he or Curze is still alive.

If they're beings of chaos, having their mortal body destroyed doesn't mean much.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Hinted? We have statements and transmitted visual proof of an assassin beheading the Night Haunter and the Night Lords confirming he's dead. Curze is just as dead as Manus, who is also missing a head and certainly KIA with nothing that either he or Curze is still alive.

If they're beings of chaos, having their mortal body destroyed doesn't mean much.

Curze/The Night Haunter was never even associated with Chaos. He was always a pure renegade.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Hinted? We have statements and transmitted visual proof of an assassin beheading the Night Haunter and the Night Lords confirming he's dead. Curze is just as dead as Manus, who is also missing a head and certainly KIA with nothing that either he or Curze is still alive.

If they're beings of chaos, having their mortal body destroyed doesn't mean much.

Curze is dead-dead. That is why the Nightlords are led by other people now. M'Shen killed him with a C'Tan Phase Blade... or, he let her kill him with one, depending on how you want to read it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Not all of Abnett's work is bad.

He is extraordinarily overrated though.

I enjoyed reading the books on the Tanith First and Only, but then I read the train wreck that was Sabbat Martyr. His style has ruined the story he had me interested in. I mainly blame his huge build up, quick resolution, and skipping the following scenes.

Flipping through the Black Legion supplement and a few other codexes you can see that the reason Abbaddon never became a daemon prince was because he didn't want to tie himself to the warp in the same way as the Primarchs. He knew he would need to take an active role in real space and would need a mortal body to allow him to strike as he chose.

The Primarchs are not exactly "trapped", but they are greatly diminished in their capabilities to manifest into real space. This limits their activities and interactions with the Imperium and resigns them to focus more on their dominions within the warp. They battle with one another and other great powers/armies within warp space in a constant struggle for dominion, in a mimicry of the Dark Gods.

They are by no means "lazy", they are simply in no rush. Having eternal life allows them to plan out incursions to extremely detailed degrees and wait for the most advantageous opportunities to present themselves. They don't need to force favorable engagements, they can wait for them to present themselves. One such event would be the destruction of the Necron pylons upon Cadia. With the destruction of the pylons, the Primarchs could possibly manifest into real space with little effort and strike at the Emperor in unison.

Each Primarch has given their blessing to Abbaddon (except for Magnus, though Ahriman blessed him in the name of Tzeentch) and support his thirteenth crusade. If he is able to conquer Cadia, it would herald in the destruction of mankind.

It would not surprise me if Lorgar's "new books" are actually just Kor and Erebus's writings with Lorgar's name simply put on it to give legitimacy. From the picture painted in the HH novels I'd say Lorgar is lamenting how he sold his Legion to a lost cause and doomed humanity dispite his misguided attempts to save it, that's all speculation though.

Does'nt seem like Lorgar, I mean by the end of Betrayer he was getting pretty dark, committing genocide, human sacrifice, he never wanted to a soldier anyway so he probably likes communing with chaos and writing books about it.

IMHO Curze, Manus and Sanguinius could come back their Souls weren't destroyed like Horus's' was . Resurrection has happened before.

 TheEyeOfNight wrote:
The idea of Aaron Dembski-Bowden penning a 40k novel about Lorgar's next crusade makes me want to spend money.

Pretty much this. I already boughten this imaginary book in my brain spot


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 Farseer Pef wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Not all of Abnett's work is bad.

He is extraordinarily overrated though.

I enjoyed reading the books on the Tanith First and Only, but then I read the train wreck that was Sabbat Martyr. His style has ruined the story he had me interested in. I mainly blame his huge build up, quick resolution, and skipping the following scenes.

Read "Know No Fear" I thought "I won't really like that one by the the looks of it when I got 5 Horus Heresy books used off the webz. I read it last and the only book I got at the time that even kind of compared was "First Heretic" and ADB's word bearer books are awesome. No one else should write a HH Word Bearer book. They'll just screw it up at this point. ADB is the reason for Lorgar fans if you ask me.

The Heresy was ten thousand years ago. Isn't it more odd that the Imperium is still butthurt about it? They're all Daemon Princes now. They have their own stuff going on.

ntw3001 wrote:
The Heresy was ten thousand years ago. Isn't it more odd that the Imperium is still butthurt about it? They're all Daemon Princes now. They have their own stuff going on.

Lol. Yeah totally odd....

Oi. Don't diss lorgar, all that meditating is important. I don't know what for but it's important all the same.

Personally I think Lorgar's meditating probably has some important function that mortals wouldn't understand.

As an aside, just for those who might not be sure, Typhus canonically despises Mortarion for being content to just manage his homeworld, and Abaddon is canonically respected for sticking to the long war instead of getting sidetracked by the great game like the Daemon Primarchs, so this whole "The Primarchs don't leave their planets because they aren't as interested in the mortal realm anymore" thing is not just fan deduction.

ntw3001 wrote:
The Heresy was ten thousand years ago. Isn't it more odd that the Imperium is still butthurt about it? They're all Daemon Princes now. They have their own stuff going on.

except it's taken on the element of religous myth, it's like asking "why haven't christians gotten over the whole garden of eden thing?"

I always assumed that they were fighting amongst themselves over worlds in the Void.

Lorgar needs to do his immaterium side step over to the Golden Throne room and say "see Dad, told you you were a God!"

... and then he needs to flush the chain, daddy's got a 10k year floater.