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Quick question, Cypher gives your warlord -1 LD, well what if that warlord has an ability like stubborn or ect that prevents changes to LD, which one overrides?

 Solosam47 wrote:
Quick question, Cypher gives your warlord -1 LD, well what if that warlord has an ability like stubborn or ect that prevents changes to LD, which one overrides?

Stubborn prevents negative leadership modifiers from combat/morale checks. This is a set change to your leadership. So you would be stubborn, at your leadership -1.

Drats, ok thx for the quick reply

Are you sure? Cypher's penalty looks like a modifier to me. Wouldn't a stubborn character still take the appropriate tests at their full leadership?

 djdarknoise wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Quick question, Cypher gives your warlord -1 LD, well what if that warlord has an ability like stubborn or ect that prevents changes to LD, which one overrides?

Stubborn prevents negative leadership modifiers from combat/morale checks. This is a set change to your leadership. So you would be stubborn, at your leadership -1.

Nope. A negative modifier cannot be applied for those checks, -1LD is a modifier.

The -1 Ld is a modifier to the warlords stat, not to the combat/morale check. The issue isn't whether or not it is a modifier, the issue is what is it modifying.

Stubborn does not ignore modifiers to the check it ignores negative modifiers to the leadership when performing the check. I see Cypher's penalty as a negative leadership modifier, the exact thing stubborn ignores.

Example let's say we have a stubborn librarian with Cypher.

When making a LD check for a power he would be LD9 (if he was LD 10 to start) since stubborn does not apply to LD test to use psychic powers.

However when making a LD test to prevent falling back from shooting or after losing combat he would test at LD 10 since stubborn allows him in this situation to ignore negative modifiers.

Another example would be a stubborn captain would use his LD 10 for morale/combat test however if his by a bone sword forcing him to make a LD test or something like Mindshackle scarabs he would be at LD 9 for that test.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The -1 Ld is a modifier to the warlords stat, not to the combat/morale check. The issue isn't whether or not it is a modifier, the issue is what is it modifying.

What's the difference between a modifier to the check and a modifier to the stat that is used for that check in the rules? I'm not seeing one.

Fine, the -1 LD will apply in situations where stubborn doesn't negate negative modifiers but I'm not seeing a functional difference between a -1LD and a -1 to moral checks functionally when you take a moral check.

Because Ciphers rules says it's a modifier. It does not change the stat of the warlords LD. IE Their LD does not go from 10 to 9.

They're leadership 10 with a -1 modifier. Stubborn ignores all negative modifier penalties to leadership for the purpose of morale/pinning checks.

So they would take morale/ pinning test at LD 10. However if they were targeted by a psychic power or forced to take a LD test for any other reason they would be Ld 9.

The difference being if it's a negative modifier Stubborn ignores it in specific situations. If it changed his LD to 9 (or whatever is appropriate) then stubborn would not ignore it as it would be a stat change, and not a modifier.

VotLW would give you + leadership. So a CSM lord would have a wash.