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Yesterday I had two games, the first against a tyranid list that was a mix of MC & horde and a guard list which was a mix of infantry and mech with a slant towards infantry.

Tyranids list:
Flying hive tyrant
Swarmlord w/ 1 tyrant guard
Tervigon
2 shooty gaunt squads
1 melee gaunt squad
3 warriors
2 squads of ymgarl genestealers
3 hive guard
Trygon
May be a bit more, I can't remember exactly.

Guard list:
Leman russ
Leman russ executioner
Collusus
A platoon of about 30 guardsmen & command squad
Command squad
10 veterans in a valkyrie (or vendetta, the one with the 3 lascannons)
10 veterans
A sentinal with a lascannon
Lord commisar
Aegis defense line w/ quad gun

Here was the list I used for reference

HQ:
Chapter master w/ The Primarchs Wrath & bike & auspex 175 points

Troops:

10 man Tactical squad w/ plasma gun & missile launcher 170 points
10 man Tactical squad w/ plasma gun & missile launcher 170 points
8 bikes w/ 2 grav guns & combi grav & attack bike w/ multi melta 263 points
5 bikes w/ 2 grav guns & combi grav 145 points
5 scouts w/ snipers 60 points

Dedicated transport:

Rhino 35 points
Rhino 35 points

Fast attack:

3 land speeders w/ typhoon missile launcher 225 points
3 land speeders w/ typhoon missile launcher 225 points

Heavy support:
Predator w/ TL lascannon & lascannon sponsons 140 points
Predator w/ TL lascannon & lascannon sponsons 140 points
Whirlwind 65 points

1848

Against the guard player, the grav guns were changed to plasma and the land speeders were split into 3 squads of 2.

In the first game we played big guns never tire with the objectives slightly favouring my opponent. I simply deployed all of my forces on my edge and shot into the advancing tyranids and managed to wipe most of them out before they hit my lines, leading to my opponent conceding on turn 4 I believe. His biggest complaint was against the power of 3+ armour and grav guns.

The next game was also big guns never tire. Against the guard I kept my bikes, scouts and land speeders in reserve and then just focued on holding midfield and using the deep striking land speeders to deal with his collosus/ leman russ' to give my bikes free rein to hold mid. The game ended with fairly minor losses on each side and me controlling the midfield and my own, leading to my opponent conceding. His main mistake was not playing aggresively enough. He disliked the survivability of my bikes.

During both of the games against me both players seemed frustrated and commented on how 'bs' or 'unfair' space marines are and clearly didn't have a good time. This majorly decreased the fun of the game for myself as well, because an unethusiastic opponent obviously brings the mood down.

The third game that evening was the two aforementioned players having a game against eachother and throughout they both commented on how fun it was fighting against eachother's armys, which made me feel quite bad.

So, after a bit of a vent, her is my question. Is my list a bit of a power list? Do my opponents really stand no chance or do they just need to adapt a bit?

A lot of people are complaining about gravbikers, i take that as a sign that i should get some I think its good that marines finally have a niche special weapon for fighting mcs, most other races either have mcs or weapons to combat them. You've got a lot of fast attack, which is a gamble but you obviously just played them really well. Your opponents took the swarmlord and an executioner respectively so they can't complain too much about power building. Thats my two cents anyway.

Honestly, for FLGS gaming as opposed to tournaments, it is always a balance. Some players will be very competitive and disappointed if you don't bring a top notch list to have it out.

Others will be newer, set in the particular ways of an earlier version, not as solid in game play, etc. It can't hurt to have a backup list that is more about your favorite units and less optimized for play with those folks -but discuss what type of game your opponent wants, don't just assume!

Cheers,

V

Were you using White Scars? Because if you were using any other chapter and someone complained about that list I'd just laugh.

White Scars can get ridiculous if you have enough bikes in friendly games, but even for tournaments it's a very RPS army.

I think your army is fine. I mean come on. Primarch's Wrath? Auspex? No Shield Eternal? A mix of Scouts, Rhino marines, and bikes? A WHIRLWIND? Land Speeders?

There's almost no way you can make this list less cheesy without purposely making a terrible list.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Were you using White Scars? Because if you were using any other chapter and someone complained about that list I'd just laugh.

White Scars can get ridiculous if you have enough bikes in friendly games, but even for tournaments it's a very RPS army.

I think your army is fine. I mean come on. Primarch's Wrath? Auspex? No Shield Eternal? A mix of Scouts, Rhino marines, and bikes? A WHIRLWIND? Land Speeders?

There's almost no way you can make this list less cheesy without purposely making a terrible list.

Hey, HEY! Whirlwinds rule man!

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Were you using White Scars? Because if you were using any other chapter and someone complained about that list I'd just laugh.

White Scars can get ridiculous if you have enough bikes in friendly games, but even for tournaments it's a very RPS army.

I think your army is fine. I mean come on. Primarch's Wrath? Auspex? No Shield Eternal? A mix of Scouts, Rhino marines, and bikes? A WHIRLWIND? Land Speeders?

There's almost no way you can make this list less cheesy without purposely making a terrible list.

It is white scars, and the upgrades are good for my meta

Trying not to feel insulted

This list is hardly cheesy.

I certainly wouldn't call it bad either, though the captain load-out is... interesting.

As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

As a new player, could you explain to me how his list is power gaming? Nothing pops out at me as cheese sauce.

robam45 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

As a new player, could you explain to me how his list is power gaming? Nothing pops out at me as cheese sauce.

only againt 'nids. we need our MC's, without them our lists crumble. your ist SEEMS tailored to killing MC's, ergo, some people will see it as anti-nid. TBH thoe, your captain loadout is... very... unique! yes unique. hope I helped.

Your list is fine. It is a balanced list with few of the power units in it.

I am pretty sure your opponent's were playing with 1500 pts lists. When I total them with the normal upgrades they both come out to 1500 pts or lower.

This indicates to me that either there was a misunderstanding or the other players were stretching their points with huge numbers of upgrades (very very bad thing with those two codices).

Were these incredibly new players or perhaps what I like to call NPC (no plan controller) which is a player who throws models together without any plan on how they could possibly win a game.

Either way you are not a power gamer but you may have to work with your opponent to create a better game experience. Find out what they really hated to face and perhaps you can either work with them so they can play better or specifically remove it. Either way fun is objective #1.

BTW I have conclusively found that the power level of the lists has little to do with the fun of the game. It is the player attitudes and the willingness to make a game out of it.

Your list is nowhere near cheesy. You're opponents just like to whine. Drop the predators and whirlwind (seriously, a whirlwind?) for three Thunderfire cannons, or two with a dev squad packing lascannons (Darn you escalation...) Take more bikes, Khan, and a few more marines on foot to scatter around backfield objectives, or rush for a gambled turn 1 alpha strike. Think about building a few Void Shield Generators. Give your Chapter master the Shield Eternal, and then you can be cheesy.

robam45 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

As a new player, could you explain to me how his list is power gaming? Nothing pops out at me as cheese sauce.

The amount of high strength shooting you squished into that list is the only thing that brings it close to power gaming. A lot of people for friendly games try to mesh some assault, some shooting, some big hitters, and some infantry into the mix. Look at the Tyranid list your provided, he has a wonderful spread of MCs, medium sized bugs, and swarms.

Again I will say, your list is by no means the most amazing list out there and could be even better but you are well on your way to a decent tournament list if you wanted it. The issue in the scenario you explained is that your list was a hard counter to Tyranids.

It is by no means a cheesy powergaming list, but it is a gunline.
Gunlines are not very fun to play against. Try to include some assaulty stuff like jump packs. Jump packs are fun.

You tailored your list? I mean you said you changed a few things when you played the IG army. Why is that? Why didn't you use the same army? Is it because you knew you were playing against IG and you changed it a bit slightly?

As for being over powered, I have know idea, I don't play no more. One of the reasons I don't play anymore is because for what ever reason, I always have to wait for someone to make their army, and they some times tweak it knowing what they are up against.

So you basically didn't take and all comers list then? I mean after all you changed it a bit how ever so slightly when you played your second game.

Maybe the game would have been more funner if you didn't change it. Not sure on that part though, but still. Shouldn't have changed it if playing all comers, unless he did the same thing.

robam45 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

As a new player, could you explain to me how his list is power gaming? Nothing pops out at me as cheese sauce.

It's not hard to make a list that's not really competitive but is still a hard counter to another army. That army was a hard counter to Tyranids. Lots of long range, high strength, low AP shots to take care of monstrous creatures (and the list had few enough that it would really hurt) and mid sized bugs, sprinkled in fast moving, mid strength, low AP weapons to take care of anything left over, and plenty of mounted bolters and a Whirlwind to take care of smaller bugs. The fast moving stuff wouldn't have even needed to move much, just reposition to where threats appeared.

Even if the OP didn't intend to do it, he made an anti Tyranid gunline, and then is surprised when a Tyranid player doesn't have fun playing against it.

 -Loki- wrote:

It's not hard to make a list that's not really competitive but is still a hard counter to another army. That army was a hard counter to Tyranids. Lots of long range, high strength, low AP shots to take care of monstrous creatures (and the list had few enough that it would really hurt) and mid sized bugs, sprinkled in fast moving, mid strength, low AP weapons to take care of anything left over, and plenty of mounted bolters and a Whirlwind to take care of smaller bugs. The fast moving stuff wouldn't have even needed to move much, just reposition to where threats appeared.

Even if the OP didn't intend to do it, he made an anti Tyranid gunline, and then is surprised when a Tyranid player doesn't have fun playing against it.

This. Much like playing against DE in 5th, the army was almost custom built to wreck Nids. It wasn't overpowered or power gaming in any sense when compared to all of the armies as a whole, but that one matchup could be brutal for the Nid player.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Were you using White Scars? Because if you were using any other chapter and someone complained about that list I'd just laugh.

White Scars can get ridiculous if you have enough bikes in friendly games, but even for tournaments it's a very RPS army.

I think your army is fine. I mean come on. Primarch's Wrath? Auspex? No Shield Eternal? A mix of Scouts, Rhino marines, and bikes? A WHIRLWIND? Land Speeders?

There's almost no way you can make this list less cheesy without purposely making a terrible list.

Well on the other hand the nid player had 1 tervigon . With all those speeders and grav guns the Swarm and cow were probably dead turn 2.

 -Loki- wrote:

robam45 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
As a Tyranid player I can understand another Tyranids player frustration at that list. In fact it looks like that list is almost tailored to beat Tyranids, tons of anti-MC and a single whirlwind is enough to wipe the swarmy bits off the table. I mean 14 krak shots, 6 lascannon shots, and grav guns on bikes will bring down the entire Tyranid MC force in a turn or two. He had a good chance with the Ymgarls to do some serious damage to your list, but it wouldn't really matter in the end likely. I can tell you why your opponents might not have had fun, you were playing a gun line army. Gun line armies are no fun to play against, even if they aren't Taudar or something similar. It's just no fun to spend most of the game picking up models as your scramble to get into range to actually do something.

To answer your questions, your list is...borderline power gaming with C:SM, which is to say it isn't nearly the worst list out there but, against say a Tyranid player, it would be almost impossible to beat with a TAC list. The best list a Tyranid player could through against that is to spam as many swarms as they could, but then they couldn't hurt your vehicles...

As a new player, could you explain to me how his list is power gaming? Nothing pops out at me as cheese sauce.

It's not hard to make a list that's not really competitive but is still a hard counter to another army. That army was a hard counter to Tyranids. Lots of long range, high strength, low AP shots to take care of monstrous creatures (and the list had few enough that it would really hurt) and mid sized bugs, sprinkled in fast moving, mid strength, low AP weapons to take care of anything left over, and plenty of mounted bolters and a Whirlwind to take care of smaller bugs. The fast moving stuff wouldn't have even needed to move much, just reposition to where threats appeared.

Even if the OP didn't intend to do it, he made an anti Tyranid gunline, and then is surprised when a Tyranid player doesn't have fun playing against it.

Part of the problem is not, the list making, but the rules. One of the reasons why I quit playing 40K, doing the I move, shoot assault, then you move shoot assault. Gets a quite boring after a while, and I haven't even played much games. I think for 40K to become more fun, a drastic rule changes need to be made. Can't always blame the list building part when the rules themselves are faulty. Playing by the rules then claiming foul, something is wrong with the rules, not the player.

Honestly if you're playing people and they're not having fun, whether your power gaming or not, why not adapt your list to remove out the bits that other hate every now and then?

I'd take it as a personal challenge to adapt a weaker list and still try to win or take it on the chin every now and then (lose with the weaker list) so other people beat you once in a while too. If your motto is that your opponents must adapt or die then that's not really FLGS-worthy attitude. It is a tournament-worthy attitude though.

I think it's every player's responsibility to foster fun and friendly play and attitudes. It's how the hobby grows and the local playerbase grows too.

Honestly if you're playing people and they're not having fun, whether your power gaming or not, why not adapt your list to remove out the bits that other hate every now and then?

he would have to remove half the list , the list was tailored against nids . he even knew that , because when he switched to playing the IG guy , he changed the unit composition and the weapons on the bikers , to work better against IG.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

It's not hard to make a list that's not really competitive but is still a hard counter to another army. That army was a hard counter to Tyranids. Lots of long range, high strength, low AP shots to take care of monstrous creatures (and the list had few enough that it would really hurt) and mid sized bugs, sprinkled in fast moving, mid strength, low AP weapons to take care of anything left over, and plenty of mounted bolters and a Whirlwind to take care of smaller bugs. The fast moving stuff wouldn't have even needed to move much, just reposition to where threats appeared.

Even if the OP didn't intend to do it, he made an anti Tyranid gunline, and then is surprised when a Tyranid player doesn't have fun playing against it.

This. Much like playing against DE in 5th, the army was almost custom built to wreck Nids. It wasn't overpowered or power gaming in any sense when compared to all of the armies as a whole, but that one matchup could be brutal for the Nid player.

Depends what kind of Dark Eldar army it is. My main opponent runs Dark Eldar as his main army, and I love playing them with my Tyranids because he went the unusual direction of making a Wych army. While it's all fast stuff in Raiders, it's not the usual Trueborn with splinter cannons, Kabalites with Splinter Cannons, in Venoms firing spliners that make smaller splinter cannons. It's Wyches and Blood Brides in Raiders backed up by Scourges and Hellions.

Against my Tyranids based around close range and assault, it makes for vry close, very bloody games where victory isn't a sure thing for either side, and even has room for dramatic swings in victory points. It's like two glass cannons smashing into each other. Granted, in 5th, at best I would draw against it, but 6th evened out the field a lot. Better psychic powers and FMCs really boosted Tyranids.

Instead of modifying his lists to worse he should have lost the games. Then his opponents would have had fun.

Some people don't enjoy playing if they are soundly beaten, even if by combination of the list, bad dice and generalship/tactics.

Naw wrote:
Instead of modifying his lists to worse he should have lost the games. Then his opponents would have had fun.

Some people don't enjoy playing if they are soundly beaten, even if by combination of the list, bad dice and generalship/tactics.

Some people also don't like playing against a hard counter to their army. No amount of generalship or tactics is going to help. That's where the fun ends - when the game is over before either side deploys, and all one side can do is take models off the table turn after turn.

But of course, it's better to mock them for not enjoying that.

Then shall we look at the lists? They were all over the place with no idea.

We can wish that equal amount of points would mean the armies were equal, but that has never been the case. It is even less so with 6th edition.

What should the SM player have done? Cripple his list? I understand that this game is all about having fun. I have been on a receiving end of a one sided battle often enough. This game is not balanced, everyone knows it. You are bound to face armies you simply cannot beat.

Why does it always seem that fun only applies to the person being beat? Why should a player who has spent time working on a list, formulating their tactics, maximising their armies potential be punished and called cheesy, over powered, bad sportsman when the other player turns up with a list that was scribbled down using whatever they had to hand with no thought to cohesion, synergy or tactics?
Sometimes you come up against lists that your army will struggle against. Deal with it. Go play chess if you want all the same pieces as your opponent. Maybe those players should adapt. Learn new tactics, work on countering. Maybe they could make it fun for the guy with a decent list by learning new things, improving their gaming!
For years this hobby was to me just about building and painting armies on my own. I befriended a guy in a gw store and started actually playing the game. He is uber competitive, I'm not. Over the years he has become slightly less uber and I've become more competitive. He once had a 97 game win streak against me! Now he's lucky if he wins 2 in a row.
Poor players need to up their game. Not the other way round.
I would hate to play against someone who has crippled their list in some way to make it easier for me.

^^ this. Oddly enough belial is my hq, high five. I agree, i lose plenty but take the lesson and do better next time. Even the units i consider cheap i still enjoy playing against, as it is infinitely satisfying to see my 30 strong ork mob allies tarpit the damned doom of malantai for a whole game because the last two games it kicked my ass.

 Verthane wrote:
Honestly, for FLGS gaming as opposed to tournaments, it is always a balance. Some players will be very competitive and disappointed if you don't bring a top notch list to have it out.

Others will be newer, set in the particular ways of an earlier version, not as solid in game play, etc. It can't hurt to have a backup list that is more about your favorite units and less optimized for play with those folks -but discuss what type of game your opponent wants, don't just assume!

Cheers,

V

This. Why is this concept so hard for some people to understand?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Verthane wrote:
Honestly, for FLGS gaming as opposed to tournaments, it is always a balance. Some players will be very competitive and disappointed if you don't bring a top notch list to have it out.

Others will be newer, set in the particular ways of an earlier version, not as solid in game play, etc. It can't hurt to have a backup list that is more about your favorite units and less optimized for play with those folks -but discuss what type of game your opponent wants, don't just assume!

Cheers,

V

This. Why is this concept so hard for some people to understand?

Because in some cases using the 'units you like' might make the situation worse... I've tried to tone it down a few times, it just doesn't work very well. And I cannot help it if I expose others tactical mistakes and other errors as I'm trying to give my opponent a 'good game'

if they learn things that is good, if they are ignorant etc then that is their problem.

of course communication beforehand is helpful but it still would not do anything if your opponent turned out to be a whining git etc etc...

Frankly, I don't really see WHY the list was changed to fight the guard player - the grav gun one would be better regardless. Also, those speeders should probably always be in 3 groups of 2. That said, changing your list at all in between opponents without agreement to tailor is bad. Don't do it.

As for the nid list, it's hard to imagine how it could be worse. 4 synapse creatures and other than Ymgarls and the flyrant, nothing actually fast to assault with? Yikes. It's not got the guns to deal with most stuff and it doesn't have the speed to catch fast armies. I don't even think I have a list that wouldn't hard counter that one - it has no answer to tough mech, fast units, good assaulting units, hordes nor fast units. It's a disaster.

Looks like the fault lies on both sides.