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Hi all,

Just a quick question that's still bothering me, searched around still haven't found the answer:

Can a Buffmander join a Riptide That does not have drones at all?

I played a game today where my opponent called me out on this. And since this list is deemed to be OP he had morale support from other people

I lost but I think it's a good opportunity to learn the rules right.

Thanks in advance!

Your opponent is wrong. An IC is only banned from joining units that are never composed of more than one model. The Riptide is a unit that can be composed of more than one model, so it is legal to attach an IC.

A commander can join any model capable of being a unit. I don't have the rules in from of me but a commander can definitely join a riptide. Read your rules and translate in plain English. I think your buddy was pulling one over on you.

Moral support notwithstanding: your opponent and everyone who agreed with him was wrong about that particular interaction. You 'can' join an IC to a riptide that you haven't purchased any drones for. (the unit only needs the 'potential' to consist of more than one model, regardless of how many models are currently in it) That said, they were probably correct about the combination being OP, for what it's worth.

Thanks guys for clearing this up.

I was scared for a moment that the O'Vesa star was all just a lie that costed me 3 riptides! The problem was that I couldn't make a solid enough argument to say counter his "the unit composition consists of 1 riptide, therefore that is not a unit that can always take more members, drones are wargears"

Wings of Purity wrote:
drones are wargears"

This doesn't matter. The fact that they're purchased as wargear doesn't change the fact that they're still models on the table with stat lines, the ability to take wounds/shoot weapons/etc, and everything else that defines a model. Your opponent would only have a case if drones worked like some of the ork upgrades which are represented for WYSIWYG purposes by a grot but the grot is completely ignored for gameplay purposes and moved/taken off the table/whatever if it ever gets in the way.

 Peregrine wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:
drones are wargears"

This doesn't matter. The fact that they're purchased as wargear doesn't change the fact that they're still models on the table with stat lines, the ability to take wounds/shoot weapons/etc, and everything else that defines a model. Your opponent would only have a case if drones worked like some of the ork upgrades which are represented for WYSIWYG purposes by a grot but the grot is completely ignored for gameplay purposes and moved/taken off the table/whatever if it ever gets in the way.

I agree with everything Peregrine has said here, but hold out hope that a FAQ in the future will outlaw ICs from joining Riptides. Drones being models or no, it just FEELS wrong.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Drones being models or no, it just FEELS wrong.

Why? There's absolutely nothing in the rules that even suggests that joining an IC to a Riptide is wrong, either RAW or RAI. The only confusion here is that some people misremember the reference to MCs in the IC rule and think that it says "ICs can't join MC units" when in reality MCs are just offered as an example of something that is often a single-model unit (which an IC can't join).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Drones being models or no, it just FEELS wrong.

Why? There's absolutely nothing in the rules that even suggests that joining an IC to a Riptide is wrong, either RAW or RAI. The only confusion here is that some people misremember the reference to MCs in the IC rule and think that it says "ICs can't join MC units" when in reality MCs are just offered as an example of something that is often a single-model unit (which an IC can't join).

You don't need to go into attack or defense mode. I said I agreed with you...

It FEELS wrong because at first blush the Riptide appears to be a single MC, but then when the drones are added on it feels like a wargear upgrade (similar to the ork example that you outlined), but obviously isn't.

As for hoping it's an oversight and gets FAQd away...just wishful thinking as it's annoying how powerful/durable Riptides with IC special abilities can be.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Drones being models or no, it just FEELS wrong.

Why? There's absolutely nothing in the rules that even suggests that joining an IC to a Riptide is wrong, either RAW or RAI. The only confusion here is that some people misremember the reference to MCs in the IC rule and think that it says "ICs can't join MC units" when in reality MCs are just offered as an example of something that is often a single-model unit (which an IC can't join).

That's very true, I could use that in the argument, that was only an example!

It's illegal since the drones are wargear stats or not.

Look at your codex under composition in the Riptide entry what does it say?

If it says 1 then a IC cannot join it.

Because the codex says under composition that it is only ever composed of one model. Otherwise it would say...
Composition:
1 - 3 Riptides

It doesn't.

Hence why a Tau IC can have drones, and still join units. Otherwise the drones would count as 1 unit, and he couldn't join another unit.

So since the drones are wargear and not models, they don't trigger morale or pinning tests when they are killed?

As a matter of fact they DO, which means they are models on the table. They fight in cc, they take hits from blast weapons, they trigger morale tests when enough of them die. They count.

The drones are part of the unit. Therefore the unit has potential to be more than one model. Therefore an IC can join it.

Wagguy80 wrote:
It's illegal since the drones are wargear stats or not.

Look at your codex under composition in the Riptide entry what does it say?

If it says 1 then a IC cannot join it.

Because the codex says under composition that it is only ever composed of one model. Otherwise it would say...
Composition:
1 - 3 Riptides

It doesn't.

Hence why a Tau IC can have drones, and still join units. Otherwise the drones would count as 1 unit, and he couldn't join another unit.

Drones aren't wargear, they are models in the unit as stated in the drone rules

Wagguy80 wrote:
It's illegal since the drones are wargear stats or not.

Look at your codex under composition in the Riptide entry what does it say?

If it says 1 then a IC cannot join it.

Because the codex says under composition that it is only ever composed of one model. Otherwise it would say...
Composition:
1 - 3 Riptides

It doesn't.

Hence why a Tau IC can have drones, and still join units. Otherwise the drones would count as 1 unit, and he couldn't join another unit.

So you are saying that ICs cannot join Crisis teams, or Broadsides either right? because look at the unit composition, what does it say?

You add the Drones in exactly the same manner that you add additional broadsides and crisis suits, Drones are no longer wargear(this is even in the drones rules).

Wagguy80 wrote:


Hence why a Tau IC can have drones, and still join units. Otherwise the drones would count as 1 unit, and he couldn't join another unit.

No, the reason a Tau IC can have drones and still join units is because the Codex rules specifically grant that permission, as an exception to the normal rule.

I had called in a few months ago asking a few questions including this. The guy on the line said that riptides can only be joined by IC if they have at least one drone.

Of course, that's just the guy on the line. It's no FAQ.

GW is notorious for leaving a lot of gray area in their rules. It's the kind of gray area where you should probably just settle it before game, and if your POV doesn't stick, don't bother arguing about it. It's not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
So since the drones are wargear and not models, they don't trigger morale or pinning tests when they are killed?

As a matter of fact they DO, which means they are models on the table. They fight in cc, they take hits from blast weapons, they trigger morale tests when enough of them die. They count.

To add to this, pg33 of the Tau codex specifically states how drones are suppose to be considered.

Considering the O'vesa star has been used in several tournaments without issue, isn't it a little late to be disputing its legality?

I haven't seen the new Tau Codex.

If that is the case then either an IC cannot join those units either or GW just put a pointless rule about joining single model units.

Since can anyone name to me a unit with only 1 model that is not an IC, MC, or Vehicle?

The only thing close is the Lone Wolf. Which even though it says it cannot be joined by other models under it's options it can take 2 Fenrisian wolves.

However we could cite example by that entry that GW does not count "options" as part of unit composition.

We could also just say you can do it if you don't mind being detested by your opponent for abusing a GW rules oversight.

One of 100's of rules oversights.

I think GW just left an old rule in the rulebook, and didn't consider it when they worded all of their new codex's.

Example old chaos codex...
Obliterators Xpt
Composition 1 - 3 Obliterators

New Codex Obliterators Xpts
Composition: 1 Obliterator
Then under options may take up to 2 additional for blah blah

So use it, and abuse it. GW is horrible about FAQ's and probably don't care as long as they sell every Tau player 2 rulebooks instead of one.

That's about your only option in a tournament. Ask to see both books. If he doesn't have the expansion book. He's disqualified.

Wagguy80 wrote:
I haven't seen the new Tau Codex.

If that is the case then either an IC cannot join those units either or GW just put a pointless rule about joining single model units.

Since can anyone name to me a unit with only 1 model that is not an IC, MC, or Vehicle?

The only thing close is the Lone Wolf. Which even though it says it cannot be joined by other models under it's options it can take 2 Fenrisian wolves.

However we could cite example by that entry that GW does not count "options" as part of unit composition.

We could also just say you can do it if you don't mind being detested by your opponent for abusing a GW rules oversight.

One of 100's of rules oversights.

I think GW just left an old rule in the rulebook, and didn't consider it when they worded all of their new codex's.

Example old chaos codex...
Obliterators Xpt
Composition 1 - 3 Obliterators

New Codex Obliterators Xpts
Composition: 1 Obliterator
Then under options may take up to 2 additional for blah blah

So use it, and abuse it. GW is horrible about FAQ's and probably don't care as long as they sell every Tau player 2 rulebooks instead of one.

That's about your only option in a tournament. Ask to see both books. If he doesn't have the expansion book. He's disqualified.

Mephiston.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Since can anyone name to me a unit with only 1 model that is not an IC, MC, or Vehicle?

What's your point? MCs can be joined by ICs - Carnifexes, Canoptek Spiders.. both multi-model MC units.

So any non-multi-model MC unit (Trygon, Swarmlord, Tervigon, Tyrannofex, Harpy, Dreadknight, etc) is a unit that only ever consists of a single model.

Wagguy80 wrote:
I haven't seen the new Tau Codex.

So how can you reply responsibly? Page 33 explicitly allows drones to be "...act as additional squad members in all regards". It also allows ICs with drones to join other units.

Any store is free to impose its own rules based on group consensus. There are a lot of squiggly things in 40K and most gamers I've met aren't going to go to YMDC lengths to parse out rules and will instead aim for what feels right.
Feel free to inform them that that is how most tournaments play it. Just don't expect them to change for one person. If it really bothers you (depending on the rule in question, I could feel bothered), find a new store.