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 Lobukia wrote:
Ok, your friend is a poor loser and you are being petty. Neither of you seem to understand what is happening in the other person's list (how on earth are you taking shots from an opponent and not knowing where they're coming from?!).

Ten seconds on google or any 40k blog would have answered this question, so clearly you're just being lazy or trying to troll your "friend".

Here's my advice. Trade codices and trade armies for a week (don't actually trade models, just use the other guy's on game day). You'll learn the other guy's dex, actually have a clue on the rules and stats involved, and will better understand how both forces interact.

...How am I being petty? Or trolling...? By winning? It's a friendly game, I'm not gonna force him to pull out his codex every 5 seconds to show me every weapon. And he's not the kind of person who would cheat, trust me. And "10 seconds on google" DIDN'T answer my question, hence the poll. I'd rather get a response from dozens of gamers than one or two blogs anyway... He understands my list very well, by the way, he's read my codex several times (and it's OP of course). I only really bother to study the Tyranid codex in any sort of depth because, against all odds, the bugs player I also play is fairly good.
I asked this question because I was legitimately wondering wether or not SM was widely considered over powered.

No, SM is not OP in any way if you look at it objectively. Lackluster troops, and horrible internal balance. No real answers for jetseer council or screamerstar. The Eldar are hands down better than SM. SM are currently the 4th (maybe 5th) best codex behind Tau/Eldar/Daemons and maybe IG. I have a winning record vs SM with crappy BA. It's anecdotal, but power armor lists just have a lot of problems this edition. Power armor is easier to take on than Xeno firepower and shenanigans.

Oh, and White Scars >>>> than all other chapters. Because bikers.

Martel732 wrote:
No, SM is not OP in any way if you look at it objectively. Lackluster troops, and horrible internal balance. No real answers for jetseer council or screamerstar. The Eldar are hands down better than SM. SM are currently the 4th (maybe 5th) best codex behind Tau/Eldar/Daemons and maybe IG. I have a winning record vs SM with crappy BA. It's anecdotal, but power armor lists just have a lot of problems this edition. Power armor is easier to take on than Xeno firepower and shenanigans.

Oh, and White Scars >>>> than all other chapters. Because bikers.

I agree with most of what you said here, except for the "lackluster troops and horrible internal balance" part. SM troops are above average for Troops. Really, I think the only army that has better troops (not including unlockables) would be Chaos Daemons (and to a lesser degree, Eldar with jetbikes). As for internal balance, I disagree. The only units IMO that tend to be an automatic NO are assault marines, assault centurions, and vanguard vets. Three units isn't too bad. Pretty much everything else in the book has its place in many a build, including the much maligned tactical terminators (it ain't pretty, but a 10-man squad CAN be pretty effective against nonMEQ armies). Sadly, the assault oriented units tend to just not measure up, especially vanguard.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
SM troops are above average for Troops

You're entitled to your opinions, but this is wrong. And because you have this incorrect viewpoint, much of your other judgment calls are also wrong.

Even assuming we ignore the metagame, it's obvious the game's entire core system is balanced around marines. WS4, BS4, T4, I4, etc. This means at most, they can only be "average" as they are the baseline that everything is judged by. When you factor in the fact that all successful armies are built not only by the players, but by the GW writers (Phil Kelly is a big example with Space Wolves and Eldar) to beat on the normal marine, that lowers them to "below average".

"But 4/4/4!" you say. "But 3+ armor!" you say. How useful is that one wound with T4 and 3+ when you're facing AP3? AP2? AP1? When you're facing 60 pulse or las shots? It's worthless. It's a waste of 14 points. On the other hand Orky McSmashgob and Pvt Mullet only cost 5-6 points, leading to more dice for them to roll (balancing out their lower stats) but still ending up with 3 valuable wounds and models on the tabletop, letting them screen, take up space, conga line, bubblewrap, whatever. The marines are stuck with a handful of guys because they are an elite army that doesn't have an elite survival rate or damage output.

Just get a reaver titan and rofl stomp his eldar.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
SM troops are above average for Troops

You're entitled to your opinions, but this is wrong. And because you have this incorrect viewpoint, much of your other judgment calls are also wrong.

Gonna have to agree with Tyberos here, while Tactical Squads aren't horrible, they pay a premium for their 3+ which is largely useless in the current meta (or so I've read, I know for a fact that Eldar at least render them useless). With the sheer volume of fire and ridiculous amount of AP2, power armor isn't so great. And Termagants have the same firepower for pete's sake.

even hot shot guards can ID marines.

EyeOfDC wrote:
even hot shot guards can ID marines.

Er...Penetrate, because S3 isn't going to ID a marine.

However I've noticed my 3+ CSM going less and less, even my own noise marines blast masters are making a joke out of 3+ saves

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
SM troops are above average for Troops

You're entitled to your opinions, but this is wrong. And because you have this incorrect viewpoint, much of your other judgment calls are also wrong.

Even assuming we ignore the metagame, it's obvious the game's entire core system is balanced around marines. WS4, BS4, T4, I4, etc. This means at most, they can only be "average" as they are the baseline that everything is judged by. When you factor in the fact that all successful armies are built not only by the players, but by the GW writers (Phil Kelly is a big example with Space Wolves and Eldar) to beat on the normal marine, that lowers them to "below average".

"But 4/4/4!" you say. "But 3+ armor!" you say. How useful is that one wound with T4 and 3+ when you're facing AP3? AP2? AP1? When you're facing 60 pulse or las shots? It's worthless. It's a waste of 14 points. On the other hand Orky McSmashgob and Pvt Mullet only cost 5-6 points, leading to more dice for them to roll (balancing out their lower stats) but still ending up with 3 valuable wounds and models on the tabletop, letting them screen, take up space, conga line, bubblewrap, whatever. The marines are stuck with a handful of guys because they are an elite army that doesn't have an elite survival rate or damage output.

The lack of damage output is the real killer.