Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, out of the most recent armies, Space Marines (and Dark Angels) have the most... oddly balanced of the new codices. Now, I'm not saying that Space Marines suck, just that Tactical Marines only kinda suck. Think about it. Eldar troops are fast, have the capacity for JSJ tactics, and have a sort of rending ability on their weapons. Tau have a much longer range with higher strength, plus the capacity to unleash more shots with a Fireblade Cadre or Ethereal and then increase their BS using Markerlights. Daemons have tough troops, swift troops with rending and tons of attacks, and troops with AP3 weapons all over.

What do Tactical Marines have going for them? A 3+ armor save and a decent statline? Even Chaos Marines are better simply because they start out cheaper and can take marks, which makes them a fair bit better, though slightly more expensive. Add their banner things, and they become even better, and non-marked CSM can become fearless.

So I propose that Tactical Marines become slightly more useful, bringing them up to the level of Dire Avengers or Firewarriors in their usefulness. They're supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none sort of deal, so why are they a jack of all trades but they suck at most of them? They need firepower. I can't begin to say how many times I've had Tacticals drop in and do nothing to a unit of Firewarriors, maybe killing two models at best in a single phase. My proposal:
- Tactical squads that number 10 models or more may take up to two weapons from the Special and/or Heavy weapon list.
- Tactical squads may gain the Slow and Purposeful rule for +1 point per model.

They got enough going for them as it is.

ATSKNF is MASSIVE on your scoring troops, and the ability to be in 10-man teams for low-objective-count missions such as relic/killpoints and split in missions that have 4-5 objectives on the field is also huge.

Tacticals are fine troops. they are there to score objectives, and they are better at it then most. you don't take them to kill stuff, you take them not to die. these FW and eldar guys with cool guns? don't have as nice armor. and the armor matters more for troops.

Why on earth would they have SnP?
And the ability to have a special AND a heavy is more then some have as it is, having two of the same is not a good idea.



(also, using fireblade or ethreal as examples of how FW are good troops is silly, they are HQ choices attached to these troops, you can get ANY unit to preform better with the right HQ around.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
They got enough going for them as it is.

ATSKNF is MASSIVE on your scoring troops, and the ability to be in 10-man teams for low-objective-count missions such as relic/killpoints and split in missions that have 4-5 objectives on the field is also huge.

Tacticals are fine troops. they are there to score objectives, and they are better at it then most. you don't take them to kill stuff, you take them not to die. these FW and eldar guys with cool guns? don't have as nice armor. and the armor matters more for troops.

Why on earth would they have SnP?
And the ability to have a special AND a heavy is more then some have as it is, having two of the same is not a good idea.



(also, using fireblade or ethreal as examples of how FW are good troops is silly, they are HQ choices attached to these troops, you can get ANY unit to preform better with the right HQ around.)

ATSKNF is great. I'm not knocking that. I'm saying that comparatively SMs have the lowest killing power out of any given troop choice. Tactical Marines can't put out nearly three dozen shots at 15", nor are their weapons even remotely effective against terminators compared to Daemonettes or Shuriken weapons.

And they would have SnP in order to actually move and fire heavy weapons. A single model with relentless does not give it to the unit, but a single model with SnP does confer it to the unit. SnP isn't some mechanical support or anything, it's a unit moving slowly and methodically, taking their time and bracing themselves to fire their weapons to the greatest effect. Also, it makes Heavy Bolters not suck. As much.

As for armor, both FW and Dire Avengers have 4+ saves. The difference between 4+ and 5+ is HUGE. Nearly every weapon in the game removes 5+ saves. But 4+? Not nearly as common, and those that do are special weapons or heavy weapons, like kraken penetrator rounds or heavy bolters.

And finally, Grey Hunters can have two Special weapons, and on top of that they get the second for free. That's why they're still one of the best troop choices available.

FLUFFWISE why would they have SnP? its not making any sense for them.


And as said-they don't ahve the same killpower, they got durability. and for troops that's the important thing. they are fine with that.
The difference between 4+ and 5+ IS huge, but so is 4+ to 3+. AP3 AoE weapons or high RoF guns are less common. unlike AP4 where you got large blasts everywhere and cheap heavy bolters spitting them. and even if you dont get by the save, a 1/2 chance to kill is still better then 2/3.

Grey hunters are also more expensive from the get-go (rendering the cheaper first special and free second matter less), got no option to get a heavy weapon AT ALL and got Counter Attack where tacticals got much superior Chapter Tactics, and the ability to split up (the hunters cant do it. at all.)

Grey hunters were amazing back when they costed the same as tactical and did everything better and cheaper, these days its not so. they are a less flexible tactical squad that's better only specifically at advancing towards the enemy and pellet him with guns-and worse at objective camping.

 BoomWolf wrote:
FLUFFWISE why would they have SnP? its not making any sense for them.


And as said-they don't ahve the same killpower, they got durability. and for troops that's the important thing. they are fine with that.
The difference between 4+ and 5+ IS huge, but so is 4+ to 3+. AP3 AoE weapons or high RoF guns are less common. unlike AP4 where you got large blasts everywhere and cheap heavy bolters spitting them. and even if you dont get by the save, a 1/2 chance to kill is still better then 2/3.

Grey hunters are also more expensive from the get-go (rendering the cheaper first special and free second matter less), got no option to get a heavy weapon AT ALL and got Counter Attack where tacticals got much superior Chapter Tactics, and the ability to split up (the hunters cant do it. at all.)

Grey hunters were amazing back when they costed the same as tactical and did everything better and cheaper, these days its not so. they are a less flexible tactical squad that's better only specifically at advancing towards the enemy and pellet him with guns-and worse at objective camping.

Fluffwise they'd arguably have Relentless, at least for non-heavy weapons. Not game balance wise though.

AP and AP3 (large and small) blasts are rather common, honestly.

I think Tactical Marines are fine. The issue is that other comparable units are not fine.

 McNinja wrote:

I'm saying that comparatively SMs have the lowest killing power out of any given troop choice. Tactical Marines can't put out nearly three dozen shots at 15", nor are their weapons even remotely effective against terminators compared to Daemonettes or Shuriken weapons. And finally, Grey Hunters can have two Special weapons, and on top of that they get the second for free. That's why they're still one of the best troop choices available.

Two of their 3 Special Weapons ignore 2+ Saves, and the flexibility of their Heavy Weapons is really only marched by Imperial Guard of which 3 of the make a mockery of 2+ Saves.

As far as the two Special Weapons, I also play Space Wolves and the duel Special weapons are great, but unlike normal Tactical Marines I only have a 24” Bubble. Tactical Maries are hard presses not to have a 24” Bubble which something can fire as long as they take a Heavy Weapon. Now with Grav-Weapons Tactical Marines with Heavy Bolter and a Combi-Grav can put out an impressive rate of fire, especially with the right Chapter Tactics.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

I'm saying that comparatively SMs have the lowest killing power out of any given troop choice. Tactical Marines can't put out nearly three dozen shots at 15", nor are their weapons even remotely effective against terminators compared to Daemonettes or Shuriken weapons. And finally, Grey Hunters can have two Special weapons, and on top of that they get the second for free. That's why they're still one of the best troop choices available.

Two of their 3 Special Weapons ignore 2+ Saves, and the flexibility of their Heavy Weapons is really only marched by Imperial Guard of which 3 of the make a mockery of 2+ Saves.

As far as the two Special Weapons, I also play Space Wolves and the duel Special weapons are great, but unlike normal Tactical Marines I only have a 24” Bubble. Tactical Maries are hard presses not to have a 24” Bubble which something can fire as long as they take a Heavy Weapon. Now with Grav-Weapons Tactical Marines with Heavy Bolter and a Combi-Grav can put out an impressive rate of fire, especially with the right Chapter Tactics.

Except that most models with a 2+ save also have some other save as backup, most notably terminators. One or two S7 AP2 shots doesn't help much, although it will help slightly. Grav-guns are Salvo, so you won't get to fully use them unless they're on something with Relentless or Slow and Purposeful. Compared to a full unit of Dire Avengers, a Tactical SM unit with a plasma gun still deals less damage to 2+ save models than the DAs. 10 DAs is 20 rending shots. 10 tactical marines with a plasma or grav-gun is 9 S4 AP5 shots and 2 AP2 shots. (or 18 S4 AP5 if <12".

Also, their Heavy Weapons really aren't that flexible. You can't move and shoot them, so unless you're doing a very static gunline, those weapons are almost useless most of the time, and even less if you're doing a Drop Pod army. However, I might remove the "two specials or two heavy weapons" bit. SnP is fine alone, I think.

Also, the only way to make Tacticals much better is by using the FW siege assault vanguard list and taking siege mantlets, which allows for armor save re-rolls against shooting only. It isn't cheap (almost a GK paladin), but they double their survivability.

 McNinja wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

I'm saying that comparatively SMs have the lowest killing power out of any given troop choice. Tactical Marines can't put out nearly three dozen shots at 15", nor are their weapons even remotely effective against terminators compared to Daemonettes or Shuriken weapons. And finally, Grey Hunters can have two Special weapons, and on top of that they get the second for free. That's why they're still one of the best troop choices available.

Two of their 3 Special Weapons ignore 2+ Saves, and the flexibility of their Heavy Weapons is really only marched by Imperial Guard of which 3 of the make a mockery of 2+ Saves.

As far as the two Special Weapons, I also play Space Wolves and the duel Special weapons are great, but unlike normal Tactical Marines I only have a 24” Bubble. Tactical Maries are hard presses not to have a 24” Bubble which something can fire as long as they take a Heavy Weapon. Now with Grav-Weapons Tactical Marines with Heavy Bolter and a Combi-Grav can put out an impressive rate of fire, especially with the right Chapter Tactics.

Except that most models with a 2+ save also have some other save as backup, most notably terminators. One or two S7 AP2 shots doesn't help much, although it will help slightly. Grav-guns are Salvo, so you won't get to fully use them unless they're on something with Relentless or Slow and Purposeful. Compared to a full unit of Dire Avengers, a Tactical SM unit with a plasma gun still deals less damage to 2+ save models than the DAs. 10 DAs is 20 rending shots. 10 tactical marines with a plasma or grav-gun is 9 S4 AP5 shots and 2 AP2 shots. (or 18 S4 AP5 if <12".

Also, their Heavy Weapons really aren't that flexible. You can't move and shoot them, so unless you're doing a very static gunline, those weapons are almost useless most of the time, and even less if you're doing a Drop Pod army. However, I might remove the "two specials or two heavy weapons" bit. SnP is fine alone, I think.

Also, the only way to make Tacticals much better is by using the FW siege assault vanguard list and taking siege mantlets, which allows for armor save re-rolls against shooting only. It isn't cheap (almost a GK paladin), but they double their survivability.

As far as Flexability, that comes with your List building.
As gar as Gun Lines/Pods, most of the time I see Tactical Squads become very static very quickly. Once there are on the Objective, they stay there and hold it for as long as you can.
As far as taking objectives, that what the rest of your army does. Tactical Squads can do it to. Once your Tactical Squad is within 12" You blast your taget off the Objective and move on.
Remeber Tactal Squads are "Jack of Trades" that means "Master of None".
Redunancy is also a good way to use them. I run 3x 10 man squads with a Combi-Plasma, Plasma gun and Plasma Cannon. The only two things that give me issues are OrK Battle Wagons and the DoM. Otherwise most things die before they get close and those who do get close my Bolt Guns finish off or at least slow down.I don't think they need anything other than practice in there use.

Yeah, I am both an eldar and space marine player. Space marines are so durable. Dire avengers have blade storm but t3 and 4+sv and cost 13 pt per model? You can run tactical marines across a field. Dire avengers you can't (nor would you want to) the marines live avengers die. I mean sure I would think that's cool to make tactical squads a little more damage dealing, but they are more like a tank instead of a dps. That's why I still like space marines is that they are durable and when the game is winding down to turn 5 you realize you are winning with objectives.

Really this game comes down to skill of both players. Dice are really important especially since its completely random and good (lucky) dice rolls and bad (un fortunate) dice rolls sway games also, but that is just a part of this game. Its way more then rolling dice, its target priority, target saturation, positioning, timing, and in the end having fun!

I would be happy to be able to take two special weapons rather than one special and one heavy.

zend0g wrote:
I would be happy to be able to take two special weapons rather than one special and one heavy.

Thats what Sternguard or Command Squads are for.

A Tactical Suqad is just that; A Tactical JoT. When thay deploy they are givin a basic command and given the tools for that job. From there they expand thier "Job"

I get this all the time when I post a Plasma SPAM List: How do you deal with AV14 with your Tactical Squads?
My Reply: It's not thier Job!
Now I usualy give the Sarge a Melta Bomb as Power Fist are now Death Traps. I want to Kill a Land Riader I feed it Las-Cannons from my Devistators or Melta Armed Sternguard, that is thier job.

 Anpu42 wrote:

zend0g wrote:
I would be happy to be able to take two special weapons rather than one special and one heavy.

Thats what Sternguard or Command Squads are for.

A Tactical Suqad is just that; A Tactical JoT. When thay deploy they are givin a basic command and given the tools for that job. From there they expand thier "Job"

I get this all the time when I post a Plasma SPAM List: How do you deal with AV14 with your Tactical Squads?
My Reply: It's not thier Job!
Now I usualy give the Sarge a Melta Bomb as Power Fist are now Death Traps. I want to Kill a Land Riader I feed it Las-Cannons from my Devistators or Melta Armed Sternguard, that is thier job.

Sternguard - Total overkill for that role.
Command Squad - Really? You'll have one per company.

Just as you said tactical squads should be maneuverable and flexible for taking and holding objectives. Having to pick a heavy weapon as their other weapon choice hampers that. Plus, it makes an already expensive troop choice more so. We aren't saying not to allow tactical squads to take heavy weapons but given them more options.

Give them a free CCW, let them take two specials, give CSM ATSKNF to make them not suck compared to loyalists. Even with 2 specials they're still stuck with one of the worst basic weapons in the game.

Also, Tactical Marines are by no means "durable". Shuriken weapons hose them, Heldrakes murder them, Riptides obliterate them, Daemons of Slaanesh do... whatever they do to them. You may recognize those things as some of the most popular units in the game.

Above all else, though, Marines suffer from "elite army syndrome" in that they're more vulnerable to statistical flukes than other armies. For example, if you're playing Orks, you're throwing a lot of dice and as such are more likely to perform closer to statistical average. If an Ork player rolls 5 1's to save he laughs it of and shoves another 50 Boyz down the enemy throat. If a Marine player rolls 5 1's for saves he just lost 200 points in Terminators.

Obviously, it can work the other way around as well, when that last Terminator takes 67 2+ saves without dying and proceeds to win the game (actually had that one happen...), but the point is that you're much more at the mercy of the dice as a Marine player than, say, an Ork or Tyranid player.

zend0g wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Said Stuff

Sternguard - Total overkill for that role.
Command Squad - Really? You'll have one per company.

Just as you said tactical squads should be maneuverable and flexible for taking and holding objectives. Having to pick a heavy weapon as their other weapon choice hampers that. Plus, it makes an already expensive troop choice more so. We aren't saying not to allow tactical squads to take heavy weapons but given them more options.

Yes more options would be nice, but Everything could have more options.
This also might be the “Old Timer” talking, but then they would not be Tactical Squads. They would either be over gunned Assault Troops or Lesser Devastators.

You want to take 2 Flamers, Melta-Guns or Plasma-Guns, Play/Allie Space Wolves, but that is may just be my opinion.

I just want a troop choice to sit on an objective, not die, and give something that comes for them a bloody nose until help arrives.
Tactical squads can do that.
I am glad that they can move and shoot their bolters (Hw snap fires, new life for Hvy Bltr) so they can get there even on foot with some measure of aggression.
For giggles I spammed tactical squads and was impressed what a mess a marine horde can do.
Drop pod in a few vanilla marines and see what they can do when dropped in the right place.

The problem is that every army is made with the thought of how they would do facing marines so yes, 6th edition is seeing them not as "super human" as in prior editions, but they pretty much fight to the last man which is more than any of the prior troops mentioned could do and gives that warm fuzzy feeling when choosing to do something reckless.

 Talizvar wrote:
I just want a troop choice to sit on an objective, not die, and give something that comes for them a bloody nose until help arrives.
Tactical squads can do that.
I am glad that they can move and shoot their bolters (Hw snap fires, new life for Hvy Bltr) so they can get there even on foot with some measure of aggression.
For giggles I spammed tactical squads and was impressed what a mess a marine horde can do.
Drop pod in a few vanilla marines and see what they can do when dropped in the right place.

The problem is that every army is made with the thought of how they would do facing marines so yes, 6th edition is seeing them not as "super human" as in prior editions, but they pretty much fight to the last man which is more than any of the prior troops mentioned could do and gives that warm fuzzy feeling when choosing to do something reckless.

^This

Not that they suck or anything but id like for them to be able to take heavy flamers.

just my personal wish as id love to have flamer + heavy flamer out of a pod with the other 5 man on a point.

The main issue i have with tac marines is that bale flamers exist.

Oh also give tac sergeants access to auspex. reeeeely dumb that the kit come with one but cant use it.

The baleflamer is a great counter to marines in general. That's not the problem. Terminators die to lascannons and Plasma, tacticals die to baleflamers and other AP3. What tacticals need is the capacity to have the same punch as firewarriors or daemonettes or dire avengers.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Also, Tactical Marines are by no means "durable". Shuriken weapons hose them, Heldrakes murder them, Riptides obliterate them, Daemons of Slaanesh do... whatever they do to them. You may recognize those things as some of the most popular units in the game. average. If an Ork player rolls 5 1's to save he laughs it of and shoves another 50 Boyz down the enemy throat. If a Marine player rolls 5 1's for saves he just lost 200 points in Terminators..

No basic troop choice is durable against any of that. That's not someones entire force, tactical marines are durable against other peoples troops and some elites. Yeah marines are basic and don't have anything special going on besides atsknf which is an amazing rule. What are troops meant to do? Hold objectives! Tactical marines do this best.

 McNinja wrote:
What tacticals need is the capacity to have the same punch as firewarriors or daemonettes or dire avengers.

Why should they?

a tac squad should be Jack of all trades and be able to pull weight in most any scenarios that come up. they shouldnt have the same firepower as fire warriors or have amazing CC like daemonettes they should have just enough to not suck completely. which is probably why they seem so lack luster.

other than bale flamers though i probably should broaden that out to, a lot of all armies now have way better access to gear that completely ignores the durability of tac marines.

ATSKNF is not helping that much anymore as squad are being killed to the man instead of making morale tests. Just as in real warfare, as lethality increases, morale means less and less.

Tactical marines are overpriced because they try to do too much and can actually accomplish none of it. They are literally dead weight bullet catchers.

As for making tactical marines BETTER, I frankly have no idea. They have never been that great, but it's the lethality of Xenos and helldrakes that basically make them overcosted now.

Yeah other armies should because tactical marines out weigh survivability compared to other armies basic troop choices. When I played 4th edition I remember tactical marines filling so many roles and being good at each one and they would also live. So these other armies are greeting awesome heavy support, elite and now flyer models and units to take out a marine troop choice, just think about it.

The problem isn't so much tactical marines, they're not meant to shine in any one area, though with chapter tactics they can pull their weight a bit better. The problem is that Marines are so abundant, being the army most players start with, that the game has changed from "How good is this unit" to "how good is this unit at killing marines". If killing a marine is the standard, they are going to do at least that well against almost everything else, so the one thing tacticals are meant to excell at, staying power, is no longer there. Add in the ridiculous weapons being pumped out in the new codexs, and you have a system where staying power is easily mitigated, if not outright ignored.

There's not an easy solution to this situation. Either increase the number of players playing Xenos armies to make marines less of a standard, or make a massive overhaul of the rules to readjust how AP works. Neither option is easy, and i don't see GW doing either. I'd say that all the great Xenos Codices being released of late (Dark Eldar and Necrons in 5th, Tau and Eldar in 6th) are a clever feint by GW to bring more players to the Xenos side, rebalancing the game away from only focusing on killing MEQ, but i really doubt that they're that clever.

So if survability is the main issue, what about every other troop chouce out there. They all Die [and sometines easyer] to the same weapons Marines die to.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So if survability is the main issue, what about every other troop chouce out there. They all Die [and sometines easyer] to the same weapons Marines die to.

exactly.

Dat Guy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Also, Tactical Marines are by no means "durable". Shuriken weapons hose them, Heldrakes murder them, Riptides obliterate them, Daemons of Slaanesh do... whatever they do to them. You may recognize those things as some of the most popular units in the game. average. If an Ork player rolls 5 1's to save he laughs it of and shoves another 50 Boyz down the enemy throat. If a Marine player rolls 5 1's for saves he just lost 200 points in Terminators..

No basic troop choice is durable against any of that. That's not someones entire force, tactical marines are durable against other peoples troops and some elites. Yeah marines are basic and don't have anything special going on besides atsknf which is an amazing rule. What are troops meant to do? Hold objectives! Tactical marines do this best.

No other basic troop is paying to be durable in the same way. 2 Ork Boyz live longer against Baleflamers than a Tactical Marine. An Ork Boy is still less than half the cost of the Marine, who's paying to not die.

Paying to be durable?!

You pay what, two points for ATSKNF and T4 compared to Sisters? Or, heck, one point for a 3+ save compared to Necron Warriors.

A single freaking point.

How much more durable to you want to be?!

Heavy flamers and dual special weapons are the Sisters' stick, anyway, and they pay for it by losing access to plasma and rocket.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Paying to be durable?!

You pay what, two points for ATSKNF and T4 compared to Sisters? Or, heck, one point for a 3+ save compared to Necron Warriors.

A single freaking point.

How much more durable to you want to be?!

Heavy flamers and dual special weapons are the Sisters' stick, anyway, and they pay for it by losing access to plasma and rocket.

Sisters kick butt.
Yeah I agree they are over costed though with their release they should have got at least a 1 to 2 point reduction.

As for other people!

As for a basic troop choice like tactical squads I don't expect them to be durable against an some, we are talking proper match ups here. This game is like chess you set up and move certain pieces that take other pieces. Tactical marines are fine, it bothers me that everyone for everyones army needs the best at this or better at that.

How about this: get your game up! Instead of relying on better units or strong units rely on being a better player. I have been making do with my marines. I am now doing a raven guard chapter now. (not raven wing)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Paying to be durable?!

You pay what, two points for ATSKNF and T4 compared to Sisters? Or, heck, one point for a 3+ save compared to Necron Warriors.

A single freaking point.

How much more durable to you want to be?!

Heavy flamers and dual special weapons are the Sisters' stick, anyway, and they pay for it by losing access to plasma and rocket.

Sorry, I forgot about the Sisters, who are just as hosed overpaying for a 3+ save. Ideally, IMO, Sisters ought to be around a Fire Warrior in cost, trading worse firepower and range for better armour. The melee power difference (armour aside) between the two is more or less irrelevant anyway, neither of them is going to hold for long against anything remotely serious in combat anyway.

Still, when every single Xenos Codex released in an edition adds more ways to completely fart all over armour saves, and when no MEQ book manages to consistently score high in any tournaments (feel free to prove me wrong here BTW, I just haven't seen any where they do) it's pretty damn obvious that there's something up with the MEQ Codices. The obvious conclusion is that while Tactical Marines got cheaper, the firepower of everyone else increased by a bigger factor, especially when taking low-AP weapons into account.

The Necron Warriors have Reanimation Protocols, which makes them more durable than Tacticals. ATSKNF doesn't really matter that much in an edition where the only viable melee units are nitro-powered nuclear sledgehammers murderizing anything they come in contact with.

Just as an example, to kill 3 Tactical Marines (42 points), you need an average of 27 BS4 bolter shots. To kill 7 Ork Boyz (42 points) you need an average of 21 BS4 bolter shots. If we add cover to the Boyz, which is trivially easy to come across, it's 28 BS4 bolter shots to kill them. The Boyz are 77% as durable against bolters out of cover, but have more than 100% the durability against AP3 or lower. When you move the Boyz into cover, they're more durable against anything that doesn't have Ignores Cover and is AP4 or higher. This is with the oldest Codex in the game, who are quite likely to have a points reduction to their units when they get a new one, which will only make everything worse.

While we're on the subject of shootas: for the record, Shoota boyz outshoot Tactical Marines at ranges between 18-12", and if the Marines move in to rapid fire they'll be in the charge range of a band of angry Orks. In short, Shoota boyz are better at being Tactical Marines than Tactical Marines. The Tactical Marines are better at anti-tank due to special and heavy weapons being available, but "better" here is a relative term. You don't take a Tactical Squad because it's awesome at hunting tanks, you take it because you need scoring and then plop it down on a backfield objective because you have to, not because it's an amazing unit. Shoota Boyz, Grey Hunters, Necron Warriors, Guardsman Squads, Daemonettes, Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, and Tervigons all contribute more than Tactical Marines do while being Troops when played properly. Scouts, Cultists, Guardsman Squads, Nurglings, and Kroot all fill the "token backfield unit" better because they're not paying 14PPM for a 3+ save, they're paying at most 10PPM and getting their 3+ cover from hiding in terrain. While that means that they're vulnerable to Ignores Cover weapons, most weapons with Ignores Cover these days, at least in my experience, is stuff like Baleflamers, anything Tau, Serpent Shields, and TFCs. Most of these are extreme overkill to fire at a cheap throwaway unit, and if you're hiding behind a wall and/or below an upper floor some of them won't even be able to shoot you at all. All we want is to feel as though Tactical Marines are actually useful for something other than standing around and taking potshots all game.

So it looks like it keeps coming down to Durability more than a Weapons Package.
Yes I have felt the sting of AP3, I had two games back to back were I was never allowed to make my save do to AP3 and No-Cover Save Attacks.
That happens, it sucked big time to have a Brood of 5 Genestealers assault my Tactical Squad and I take 11 rending hits from 20 attacks. I also field enough Plasma that that game the Tyranid Player only got to make his Invulnerable Saves. His Orks unless they are facing my Guard never get to make saves most of the time too.

The other thing is everything seems to look at Tactical squads in a Vacuum. When that Hell-Turkey Shows up who is it going to go after my Tactical Squad or the Devastator Squad that is putting out 4 Plasma Cannon Shots a Turn? Are the Fire Dragons going to go after the Tactical Squad or the Predator Dakka Tank?

Any Unit if you decide it going to die is going to die if you put your mind to it.