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Yeah, without specific rules on power interactions (ala NWoD) I have to default to a fluff standpoint. There is nothing to give the idea that Vampires consider lupines anything but terrifying monsters. As far as Dominate, since it specifically mentions in the sidebar that certain mortals can resist it, and indeed there are ways possessed by the inquisition specifically to render mortals immune to dominate, that it wouldn't be all that easy to mind control a werewolf.

Werewolves are able to gain multiple actions by using rage, are faster and stronger than most vampires and cause aggravated damage by default. Frenzy renders them immune to just about any mental influence, and they regenerate from almost any physical damage the vampire can cause.
And then gifts.

On the other hand, a vampire who sacrifices physical combat ability gains the chance to mentally affect a werewolf, should he be able to make eye contact and/or speak a command.

Not to mention werewolves power up significantly faster, fluff wise. I'm not saying mental influence isn't a vampire's best weapon against a werewolf; I'm just saying best doesn't equal dominating or even good.

The real advantage of being a vampire is the power cap is way higher than for werewolves, sure a weak werewolf could beat a weak vampire but the strongest active vampire could beat the strongest active werewolf.

Depends on what you mean by "active".

Kindred, like Mages, work better with some warning/planning; they also are more inclined to be alone - neither of which apply to Garou. Also, Umbral jaunts are pretty hard for most every Kindred to react to, let alone deal with.

Spontaneous meeting/combat with Garou will almost always be in their favor, in all but the most lopsided confrontations because of those issues and others.

By active I mean the strongest vampire that isn't in a coma.

Oddly, I think the ones in Torpor have a better chance.
The End Times books showed that them standing up did not go so well for most of them.



Mostly joking!

Most Antediluvians can waste most packs of Garou.
Bring things to scale though, a pack created to kill a specific Antediluvian would probably take it down.
(editing to add: Scale = WTH am I bringing Antediluvians into this?!)


But on a generic level, I think my previous post is still entirely true.

All this talk makes me want to try playing a WoD game...

I hate and love you all

Come into the darkness, you'll like it here.

Oh and as another note regarding Werewolves vs Vamps, Garou renown does paint a picture. Young Vampires, by which is clarified as any that are not a Elder counts as 2 Glory if Garou defeats it.

That is the lowest glory return for Wyrm Minions, even fomori are higher at 3, BSD's 4 etc. However to also clarify that Elders are seen a threat, maybe more so than I was remembering. An elder Vampire is listed as 7 glory, the same as Nexus Crawler, which is basically the worst thing short of an Incarna a Garou can bump into spirit wise.

So Elder vampires would be a worthy kill for a pack, and would require a skilled pack to pull it off, as is with a Nexus.

However if as a Elder Vampire I see a pack of Elder Garou coming, or worse Elder Hengyokai, I'm going the other way.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Come into the darkness, you'll like it here.

It's not that I don't think I'd like it, I just don't know where to start. I've currently got a lot of gaming in my life, and I'm running a DnD game. I'd love to play in a WoD game, but the people I game with look up to me as "RPG expert" (they have low standards).

I shall cease pulling this thread off track, but will keep watching it. Gonna start my own WoD thread, with hookers and blackjack! And less futurama references!

 kirsanth wrote:

Bring things to scale though, a pack created to kill a specific Antediluvian would probably take it down.
(editing to add: Scale = WTH am I bringing Antediluvians into this?!)


But on a generic level, I think my previous post is still entirely true.

No pack can take down an Antediluvian. Several local tribes attacked Zarathustra when it woke, it greased them all and then went on to fight 3 Bodhisattva class kindred of the east, which it again greased and then had 5 suns pointed at it and a spirit nuke dropped on it by the Technocracy.

Z was counted as the weakest of the 13, what are a pack of lupines going to do to the risen Tzimicse or Ennoia? These are demigod powered creatures.

The end times books had a couple examples.

"Pack" in that sense was obviously out of scale - IIRC there were some made for that purpose.

I did mean "Antediluvian" in the generation sense, not one of the big 13.

I recall the insanity that it took to deal with Ravnos.

editing to add:
This is making me want to re-read a ton of the books and our campaign notes/story.
And probably add to it.

I really hope they get a move on Mage:20 though. It keeps being pushed back.
Here is to hoping it really will get going next month.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

Bring things to scale though, a pack created to kill a specific Antediluvian would probably take it down.
(editing to add: Scale = WTH am I bringing Antediluvians into this?!)


But on a generic level, I think my previous post is still entirely true.

No pack can take down an Antediluvian. Several local tribes attacked Zarathustra when it woke, it greased them all and then went on to fight 3 Bodhisattva class kindred of the east, which it again greased and then had 5 suns pointed at it and a spirit nuke dropped on it by the Technocracy.

Z was counted as the weakest of the 13, what are a pack of lupines going to do to the risen Tzimicse or Ennoia? These are demigod powered creatures.

Several local packs. I think an entire Tribe of Garou, freed of any other concerns and descending on any of the Antediluvians en masse would do some damage. They can fight on a spiritual as well as physical level - as much as they are rage fueled killing machines, that isn't all that they are. They are by design set up to fight fundamental, all encompassing cosmic forces of evil. The Croatan sacrificed themselves as a tribe to wound and banish the Eater-of-Souls - a force that makes the Antediluvians look like petulant children. The Antediluvians are scary; but they are specifically scary to vampires because they have power over vampires.

Manchu wrote:
I have been (and am still to some degree) put off of WoD for the same reasons. I will say that when you start to read the various This: The That books in parallel it becomes pretty clear that each one is written 40k-style from the (rather arrogant) perspective of that creature-type. Vampires are kind of flimsy compared to werewolves, for example. And Cain isn't too impressive to a demon, I suppose. In Hunter, you get a taste for how ... well, mighty a human being can be.

I remember a part of the DtF fiction books where one of the demon protagonists ran into a vampire and thought he was Caine for a second ... then went to a diner with him and swapped stories. It was a pretty awesome couple of paragraphs.