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The argument that Imperial Knights as an army type are in the same vein as big horde armies or super deathstar armies is actually quite appropriate. There's plenty of army styles that you can just be unprepared for with an all-comers list, and while I'm not ready to put the boy to bed just yet and say that Knights are just a thing like anything else so deal, that concept definitely resonates with me. If somebody has Draigowing with a burly PaladinStar and your middle of the road army just can't handle it, do we then ban or penalize Draigowing? Or Seerstar? Or whatever? Obviously not. I don't want to start a race for the bottom where we systematically eliminate everything that isn't a nice, friendly, internally "balanced" army.

Hyberbolic metaphor notwithstanding (a bandage on an already infected wound! Glorious! ), I have been talking about Knights and LoW here in the shop the last few days pretty intently and I've come to the following tentative format for next time:

- 1750 points
- 0-1 Lord of War
- An army that includes any kind of detachment of Imperial Knights may not include a Lord of War
- Imperial Knights give up 1 KP per three hull points removed (per model) in scenarios that include Kill Points to determine the winner, for a total of 3 KP per Knight completely destroyed.

Multiple detachments are still green, as well as Unbound (again, as long as the list is submitted and approved prior to the event).

This seems like a reasonable middle ground that allows the inclusion of Lords of War and Knights without things getting out of hand. Obviously it is a reversal of the previous NO LoW decision, but to be honest I was never quite happy with that choice. After all, I'm an includer, not an excluder

Clearly we're still the better part of a month away from this one, so I'm definitely still listening to the discussion, but the above is what I'm leaning toward.

I suggest a simple fix.

No KP mission.

Same LoW banlist or should I bring out my tranny c'tan to play? For the record I would prefer the BAO list.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I suggest a simple fix.

No KP mission.

Yes, BAO ban list is in effect again, I just forgot to post it.

I think the extra KP for destroying the knight feels wrong when you're already giving points for removing hull points. If you want to make a knight worth 3KP then just make it 1 KP per 2 HP.

Better yet don't even bother with KP missions, then this whole conversation is moot.

Since no one seems to be getting my super subtle innuendo, I'll just go ahead and let everyone know that the Eternal War Mission we play for this one won't be Purge.

Not only is it becoming a sticky scenario in the modern meta, but it's also less relevant since it's only one scenario of twelve now instead of one out of six, and finally, we just played it last time!!

I brought it up for the sake of discussion since Purge is a thing and eventually we'll play it again.

My rationale is this: assuming a 1500 point army that includes four Knights and nothing else, the list has 12 KPs at risk, which is in line with what any other army would be bringing. Obviously, something skewy like Draigowing is only going to have 5-6, but that's an extreme. Even without the 'real-world' considerations that peeling those points off Knights is pretty tough / it's basically impossible for Knights to *not* get First Blood against most armies / It's really hard for Knights to give up Slay the Warlord unless their opponent is hyper focused on it, the simple numbers seem to make sense. Obviously some hyper-specialized armies like drop Marines stacked with Melta everywhere or a Tyranid flying circus would probably do pretty well against the Knights in this scenario, but every army has to have some kind of weakness (except Eldar, duh ), and the Knights were going to have a tough game in those match-ups anyway.

As I said on the facebook event page, Adam's got much more experience playing Knights in a tournament format than me, and I'm not ready to say the matter is settled, I want to hear what people think.

Is three KP per Knight too much? Is 2 KP better? Is the whole issue a wash since Purge is going to come up a lot less these days and Knights already have trouble in Maelstrom missions?

I think 1kp per 2 hp is the way to go. Still 3kp when dead and you don't have to discuss other high av vehicles which usually have more than 3hp.

So what's the turn out looking like for this? I know what it says on FB, anyone going to try running the BAO winning SM Biker/Knight Errant list? Huh? Huh?

Carlos, you're not allowed to win since you placed Second at BAO. Give someone else a turn

Maybe even Casey!

Will you be allowing any of the new space wolves?

OverWatchCNC wrote:So what's the turn out looking like for this? I know what it says on FB, anyone going to try running the BAO winning SM Biker/Knight Errant list? Huh? Huh?

Carlos, you're not allowed to win since you placed Second at BAO. Give someone else a turn

Maybe even Casey!

Ya know, there's merit to that. Now that I'm hitting a good stride with eldar, it's time to change up and start at the bottom of a learning curve with a new army!

So, whose ImpKnight can I borrow? I got enough bikes & drop pods!

Why is this thread not updating with anyone's posts?

Teddy is going to grab my only Knight, sorry Casey. I hope to have a stompa built and three color painted, so no threat to Mike. My Orks are super fun and I have miles to go before I sleep on my list, but oh so fun.

Teddy is bring DA. He is not on FB.

I will bring Orks.

I'll be bringing my Bully Boyz. Have fun with 25 fearless WS5 Meganobz.....

-Painboy
-Werid Boy: level 2

-10 boys, truckk
-10 boys, truckk

-3 Scortcha buggies

-4 Lobbas
-3 Tracktor cannons

-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk

I shall be bringing my never gonna win, monsta mash list...

-Hive Tyrant, wings, x2 twin linked devourers, hive commander, thorax swarm: electroshock grubs
-Old One Eye

-x30 gaunts, x20 devourers, x10 fleshborers
-Tervigon, thorax swarm: shreddershard beetles, cluster spines, crushing claws

-Haruspex, adrenal glands, toxin sacs

-Crone

-Tyrannofex, electroshock grubs
-Exocrine
-Mawlock

 Julnlecs wrote:
Will you be allowing any of the new space wolves?

The Stormfang flying dumpster will be in for sure, the codex is expected to drop the day before the event though, so most likely not.

That being said, if the SW book is anything like the Ork book, where the changes were not really sweeping but more small tweaks throughout, it might be ok. I want people to play, so if playing with the new book means more people will be inclined to come, then I could be convinced.

As an Ork player, after seeing the new book I thought that it would have been fine if GW had released it right before the tournament a couple months ago. What do you think, Mike? Ork book no big deal from a changeover perspective?

If you like getting your ass kicked then no, it wasn't really a big deal. Id say no go on the new dex becuase it does take a few read throughs to understand all the changes to basic rules such as mob rule. I know I played it wrong the first few games.

However it is a marine dex so they will be pretty good regardless. I say go for it. I got enough powerclaws now to deal with anything.

I mean whats the worst that happens, they win a local RTT?

 MikeFox wrote:
I mean whats the worst that happens, they win a local RTT?

No, orks don't win it, I do.

I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta

 Bahkara wrote:
I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta

Aw, man.
I *don't* like running 18 Fusion Blasters ... And 3 Railhead tau-tanks.

Thanks for the heads up Travis. My buddy wanted to run the new wolves.

I'm noodling something like this:

Vulkan
Command squad, 5x melta guns, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
5x tactical marines, combi plasma, plasma gun, pod
5x tactical marines, combi plasma, plasma gun, pod

We'll find out if stompas really are invincible with the mek stuff inside....

pleasantnoodles wrote:
I'm noodling something like this:

Vulkan
Command squad, 5x melta guns, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
10x sternguard, 10x combi melta, pod
5x tactical marines, combi plasma, plasma gun, pod
5x tactical marines, combi plasma, plasma gun, pod

We'll find out if stompas really are invincible with the mek stuff inside....

Holy you own 30 Sternguard armed with combi meltas? Or is there no,longer a wysiwyg requirement at GE tournaments?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Bahkara wrote:
I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta

Aw, man.
I *don't* like running 18 Fusion Blasters ... And 3 Railhead tau-tanks.

And you'll probably not be fighting me at all that day lol

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Holy you own 30 Sternguard armed with combi meltas? Or is there no,longer a wysiwyg requirement at GE tournaments?

. . .
Not that you would know *exactly* what's going on at a GE tourney . . .


Sorry, man, it was just too good to pass up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bahkara wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Bahkara wrote:
I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta

Aw, man.
I *don't* like running 18 Fusion Blasters ... And 3 Railhead tau-tanks.

And you'll probably not be fighting me at all that day lol

Fer sure. It'd be some sub-clause in Murphy's Law - "Tool up to beat a certain army build, and not get matched up."

Although I might prefer that to 30 meta shots in drop pods. At least for a turn.

It's cool guys. I got ramshackle.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Holy you own 30 Sternguard armed with combi meltas? Or is there no,longer a wysiwyg requirement at GE tournaments?

. . .
Not that you would know *exactly* what's going on at a GE tourney . . .


Sorry, man, it was just too good to pass up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bahkara wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Bahkara wrote:
I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta

Aw, man.
I *don't* like running 18 Fusion Blasters ... And 3 Railhead tau-tanks.

And you'll probably not be fighting me at all that day lol

Fer sure. It'd be some sub-clause in Murphy's Law - "Tool up to beat a certain army build, and not get matched up."

I phrased it that way on purpose Casey

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Holy you own 30 Sternguard armed with combi meltas? Or is there no,longer a wysiwyg requirement at GE tournaments?

. . .
Not that you would know *exactly* what's going on at a GE tourney . . .

Sorry, man, it was just too good to pass up.

I phrased it that way on purpose Casey

I'm not surprised that you easily out-played me. Ha! Figure that one out!

Back to discussion:
I ran a 'fun' Dledar Lelith/Wych list last night against MikeFox's MegaNob spam. Despite Mike finishing off the last 3 models at the bottom of Turn 5 (thus I was Tabled), I was up on Maelstrom missions, like 6 to 1. If game had ended with either the autarch, Warp Spider or Ravager still alive, Mike would've lost. Upshot of all this, some of the orky TacObj cards (according to Mike) are a bit lame (Score a point for getting a 6" Run!).

Anyhow, much sympathy and pats-on-the-back are due to ork players. Until they figure out the next broken combo.

So then the ork codex is good right ?

It's amazing! I'm so happy I play orks I can't even express it in words. I mean I didn't want a chariot pulled by two big squids for ghaz gull to ride in or anything. Or anew awesome flier. I mean who would want/get those things for their army.