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What keeps the SW around is plot-armor. The things the SW accomplished in their little hissy-fits are supported because the books are written by SW fans. Plain and simple.

The bit following the First War of Armageddon, especially, paints the SW in a very terrible light, because it indicates that they are, to a man, incredibly stupid. I mean, not just short-sighted or too proud and stubborn to act differently but actually incredibly, woefully low in intelligence, who are sticking their noses into business that they, apparently, have no comprehension of and, apparently, no understanding of, and end up costing the Imperium like 5 planets because of their idiocy.

For that alone the SW should have been sent on a Penance Crusade. They overstepped the bounds of their authority and remit, and fethed up things they had no knowledge of or experience with, all because they are stupid.

But, they're a popular faction with the fans, so the Space Vikings get to live on.

The later fight with the SoB suggests that the SW might be up to some shenanigans with Warp-magic or daemon-worship on Fenris, but the Wolves wouldn't let the Ecclesiarchy do its job... so, again, Wolves being idiots.

 Psienesis wrote:
What keeps the SW around is plot-armor. The things the SW accomplished in their little hissy-fits are supported because the books are written by SW fans. Plain and simple.

The bit following the First War of Armageddon, especially, paints the SW in a very terrible light, because it indicates that they are, to a man, incredibly stupid. I mean, not just short-sighted or too proud and stubborn to act differently but actually incredibly, woefully low in intelligence, who are sticking their noses into business that they, apparently, have no comprehension of and, apparently, no understanding of, and end up costing the Imperium like 5 planets because of their idiocy.

For that alone the SW should have been sent on a Penance Crusade. They overstepped the bounds of their authority and remit, and fethed up things they had no knowledge of or experience with, all because they are stupid.

But, they're a popular faction with the fans, so the Space Vikings get to live on.

The later fight with the SoB suggests that the SW might be up to some shenanigans with Warp-magic or daemon-worship on Fenris, but the Wolves wouldn't let the Ecclesiarchy do its job... so, again, Wolves being idiots.

I don't think the Space Puppies are intelligent enough to know how to summon a Daemon. It's probably just dealing with the whole 'No wolves on Fenris' bit.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
the Imperium will not act against the Space Marine chapters as a whole

Yeah they do. All the time, in fact. Up to and including extermination.

...to a few chapters.

Sisters lore started off with them wiping out an Astartes chapter.

That's how they were INTRODUCED.

Your attempt to claim that Marines are untouchable is a laughable assertion. The Inquisition deals with Marines in various ways all the time. The ones taht aren't beneficial to the Imperium are destroyed in various ways. Ordering penitent crusades, ordering them to no longer recruit more initiates for a certain number of years, arranging for supplies to be redirected elsewhere, exterminatus on their home planet, assassination of obstinate leaders, and of course, the classic Excommunicate Traitoris-- to be wiped out entirely, such as the Flame Falcons, Astral Claws, Soul Drinkers, and Relictors.

Also we should note, In general the Imperium is just fine with marine methods and the marines generally act in Imperium interest. Others may want a chapter to focus more on this or that, but at the end of the day most marines are busy fighting...someone.

The Imperium's not real particular. Avoid open war, kill bad guys, and its all family.

 lcmiracle wrote:
if attacking a space marine chapter isn't that big a deal, why didn't the other organizations join the sisters of battle?

I guess that nobody else really had a dog in that fight.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Are the successor chapters not more bounded to their predecessor and brother chapters?

Not necessarily. Successors can actually be quite divergent from their parent chapter.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Anymore emphasized the Imperium will have to anhilate the nearly the entire space marine chapters

Not saying that the Imperium wants to or should get rid of the Space Marines. All I'm saying is that they can and do purge Marine Chapters when they need to.

 lcmiracle wrote:
You'd think the agents of the Imperium'd learn from the case of the Sons of Malice... never fight SM without first getting other SM forces to join you (GK)

But they can and do kill of Space Marines without the use of other Space Marines. For example, this was written in a WD:

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

http://redelf.naxx.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_renegades.html

Similarly, the AS codex says this (emphasis mine):

Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune – planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic, and been exterminated as such by the Adepta Sororitas.

So yeah, doesn't have to be just Marines that fight Marines.

Valhallan Ice Warriors are specialists at fighting Orks, but they likely suffer terrible terrible losses while doing so anyway. (Just look at Chenkov) That SoB are somewhat commonly the ones to intervene when a chapter decides the Imperium is no fun any more does not necessarily indicate that they are particularly effective at doing it, only that that is their assignment. I mean, if you were a Canoness burning to the brim with zeal, you would not exactly refuse a mission given to you by the Ecclesiarchy, now would you? Even if said mission might not be... Ideal. Of course, the mission may be successful, but the cost of that victory is suspiciously absent from the text...

One should not assume too much, either way.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That SoB are somewhat commonly the ones to intervene when a chapter decides the Imperium is no fun any more does not necessarily indicate that they are particularly effective at doing it,

To quote that WD article again:

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

Note the use of "may be the only force considered capable". Also, the codex quote notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters. Sounds to me like they're pretty effective!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Even if said mission might not be... Ideal. Of course, the mission may be successful, but the cost of that victory is suspiciously absent from the text...

Fluff suggests that they don't just fight the Marines directly. From Citadel Journal #49:

Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant.

So it seems that the preferred SoB tactic is to strike at the Chapter's leadership to cripple it before mopping up the rest. Also note that the quote says "The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas". Seems like GW fluff has quite consistently said that the SoB are quite capable of taking out Marine Chapters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Valhallan Ice Warriors are specialists at fighting Orks, but they likely suffer terrible terrible losses while doing so anyway. (Just look at Chenkov) That SoB are somewhat commonly the ones to intervene when a chapter decides the Imperium is no fun any more does not necessarily indicate that they are particularly effective at doing it, only that that is their assignment. I mean, if you were a Canoness burning to the brim with zeal, you would not exactly refuse a mission given to you by the Ecclesiarchy, now would you? Even if said mission might not be... Ideal. Of course, the mission may be successful, but the cost of that victory is suspiciously absent from the text...

One should not assume too much, either way.

Does it matter how many the Sisters lose?

They send 500 Sisters, kill 1000 Marines (the entire Chapter), and lose 300 of their number.

Net win: Sisters.

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Valhallan Ice Warriors are specialists at fighting Orks, but they likely suffer terrible terrible losses while doing so anyway. (Just look at Chenkov) That SoB are somewhat commonly the ones to intervene when a chapter decides the Imperium is no fun any more does not necessarily indicate that they are particularly effective at doing it, only that that is their assignment. I mean, if you were a Canoness burning to the brim with zeal, you would not exactly refuse a mission given to you by the Ecclesiarchy, now would you? Even if said mission might not be... Ideal. Of course, the mission may be successful, but the cost of that victory is suspiciously absent from the text...

One should not assume too much, either way.

Does it matter how many the Sisters lose?

They send 500 Sisters, kill 1000 Marines (the entire Chapter), and lose 300 of their number.

Net win: Sisters.

...Or they send 5000 Sisters, lose 4000, net win: Sisters, given how much resources the Astartes eat.

Either is possible.

But I won't get this into another pointless versus debate.

Move on.

5000 Sisters is nearly an entire Major Order. You won't see forces of the Sororitas deployed in such size unless it's something like a Black Crusade.

There are more Space Marines than there are Sisters of Battle in the entire Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
the Imperium will not act against the Space Marine chapters as a whole

Yeah they do. All the time, in fact. Up to and including extermination.

...to a few chapters.

Sisters lore started off with them wiping out an Astartes chapter.

That's how they were INTRODUCED.

Your attempt to claim that Marines are untouchable is a laughable assertion. The Inquisition deals with Marines in various ways all the time. The ones taht aren't beneficial to the Imperium are destroyed in various ways. Ordering penitent crusades, ordering them to no longer recruit more initiates for a certain number of years, arranging for supplies to be redirected elsewhere, exterminatus on their home planet, assassination of obstinate leaders, and of course, the classic Excommunicate Traitoris-- to be wiped out entirely, such as the Flame Falcons, Astral Claws, Soul Drinkers, and Relictors.

... so you've simply ignore my use of plural Space Marine Chapters? If the Imperium is going to assert any form of contorl over the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, would they do that? The only SM chapter hinted to have been destroyed by the Soroitas was the Rainbow Warriors, I can sort of give you that one though I remain unconvinced due to the ambiguity of whether this was done solely by the hands of the Sororitas. Also the cause the Rainbow Warriors' excommunication is still... uncertain.

But, being the (supposely) the only viable option against a renegade chapter in a war of faith, somehow they amongst the supposed most notable deeds was being relieved by the Grey Knights and being slain by the Grey Knights. You can blame his spiritual liege on that one, but the sisters were never expect to win a notable fight on their own.

And the excommunication alone cannot quell the traitors, just as any excommunicated traitors, the traitor chapters are being hunted by forces of the Inquisition, or any loyalist Imperial forces. Defeat comes later then their exile.

Do remember that, until recently, the Sisters of Battle were a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, so it was expected that the Sisters would be supported by the other resources of the Ordo Hereticus... including the vessels to get them from Points A to B.

That has recently changed with the updates to the Codex, but, as is the way with GW, not every aspect of the faction established over the last 30 years was updated in the new book to form a cohesive whole, and many things are just copy-pasta'd from old books into new, despite not quite lining up with new information (or omissions).

Their Codices, for 20 years now, have consistently stated that the SoB are the Imperium's go-to for wiping out Rogue Chapters. They specifically mentioned busting in through a window (via Drop Pod) into the Chapter Master's crib with an Inquisitor and cutting the head off the snake.

Since this is described as a "typical mission option", it implies that it's a tried-and-true method.

 Psienesis wrote:
Do remember that, until recently, the Sisters of Battle were a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, so it was expected that the Sisters would be supported by the other resources of the Ordo Hereticus... including the vessels to get them from Points A to B.

That has recently changed with the updates to the Codex, but, as is the way with GW, not every aspect of the faction established over the last 30 years was updated in the new book to form a cohesive whole, and many things are just copy-pasta'd from old books into new, despite not quite lining up with new information (or omissions).

Their Codices, for 20 years now, have consistently stated that the SoB are the Imperium's go-to for wiping out Rogue Chapters. They specifically mentioned busting in through a window (via Drop Pod) into the Chapter Master's crib with an Inquisitor and cutting the head off the snake.

Since this is described as a "typical mission option", it implies that it's a tried-and-true method.

Well... that changes things, that's certainly quite an entrance. On the other hand, I'd expected this to be the jobs of the Officio Assassinorum...

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Do remember that, until recently, the Sisters of Battle were a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, so it was expected that the Sisters would be supported by the other resources of the Ordo Hereticus... including the vessels to get them from Points A to B.

That has recently changed with the updates to the Codex, but, as is the way with GW, not every aspect of the faction established over the last 30 years was updated in the new book to form a cohesive whole, and many things are just copy-pasta'd from old books into new, despite not quite lining up with new information (or omissions).

Their Codices, for 20 years now, have consistently stated that the SoB are the Imperium's go-to for wiping out Rogue Chapters. They specifically mentioned busting in through a window (via Drop Pod) into the Chapter Master's crib with an Inquisitor and cutting the head off the snake.

Since this is described as a "typical mission option", it implies that it's a tried-and-true method.

Well... that changes things, that's certainly quite an entrance. On the other hand, I'd expected this to be the jobs of the Officio Assassinorum...

How the hell does a single assassin take down a whole chapter? They already have problems against single space marines.

It's not a single Assassin, it's a battle-squad of Sisters Superior with some of the best weapons the Imperium can produce, backed by a man or woman who's authority is second only to the God-Emperor, Himself.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not a single Assassin, it's a battle-squad of Sisters Superior with some of the best weapons the Imperium can produce, backed by a man or woman who's authority is second only to the God-Emperor, Himself.

Alright, can you give a quote (source and page)? I'd like to see if I can get my hands on the source and look it up myself. If it's the new codex I can buy one just to check this out.

I actually had access to the 2nd Edition Sister of Battle Codex and can't recall reading such information.

 lcmiracle wrote:
... so you've simply ignore my use of plural Space Marine Chapters? If the Imperium is going to assert any form of contorl over the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, would they do that?

It's not so much about control... It's more about being allowed to take Marines down if they turn against the Imperium somehow. Space Marines can remain virtually independant entities as well as the Imperium being allowed to quickly deal with them as needed. That's just a necessity given how much trouble traitor Marines tend to be.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only SM chapter hinted to have been destroyed by the Soroitas was the Rainbow Warriors

Not at all. See the codex quote I posted. The Sisters have destroyed multiple Chapters. And in the other two quotes, we see that they're regarded as some of the most capable at it. Why would they be regarded like that if they hadn't done it often or were crap at it?

 lcmiracle wrote:
due to the ambiguity of whether this was done solely by the hands of the Sororitas.

I wouldn't say so. The quotes that deem them capable at it mention the Sisters alone.

 lcmiracle wrote:
somehow they amongst the supposed most notable deeds was being relieved by the Grey Knights and being slain by the Grey Knights.

Not actually a notable deed (since nobody outside of the GK knew about it), just a controversial piece of fluff that caused a lot of backlash in the 40K community.

 lcmiracle wrote:
but the sisters were never expect to win a notable fight on their own.

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of the Sisters...They have, in fact, won plenty of notable battles by themselves. To name a few: The San Leor Massacre (Sisters beat a Red Corsairs invasion), The Defense of Dimmimar (Sisters see off an Eldar invasion), The Battle of the Penitent (Sisters defeat an Ork horde). All of those were roughly as "notable" as the Bloodtide, and the Sisters did well. And again, we know that they've successfully wiped out Marine Chapters. They're plenty good at this "war" business.

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell does a single assassin take down a whole chapter? They already have problems against single space marines.

They likely couldn't. Though not such an example, this shows that assassins vs. Marines can indeed be a pretty close fight.

 Troike wrote:

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of the Sisters...They have, in fact, won plenty of notable battles by themselves. To name a few: The San Leor Massacre (Sisters beat a Red Corsairs invasion), The Defense of Dimmimar (Sisters see off an Eldar invasion), The Battle of the Penitent (Sisters defeat an Ork horde). All of those were roughly as "notable" as the Bloodtide, and the Sisters did well. And again, we know that they've successfully wiped out Marine Chapters. They're plenty good at this "war" business.

I have about as high a regard for the Sororitas as I have for the IG regiments, i.e. the Catachans MXIV's triumphant over Orks on Kato, the assassination of an Sam-Hann Autarch by a single Catachan Devil squad over Mortant VII (funnily enough it's all about the Catachans), the Attilian's victory over the Necrons on Loxar IV, the Cadian defense of Fortress Carcasson, the crushing of Lord Brule's chaos warband in the combined arms of Cadian 8th (creed!) and Terrax Guard... (all from the 5th IG codex)

But the simple fact that the sisters of battle, the orders militants are simply a middle ground between the multi-cultured, lowly Guardsmen, and the uber-ripped Space Marines. And they are not a good one at either. Unlike almost all other Imperium factions, the sisters are all one-faced, promethium-obessed zealots. They are uninteresting as a faction and even more uninteresting as characters. The same reason why I dislike the Grey Knights and most of the recent depictions of Codex Astartes (Cpt. Titus was at least somewhat of an interesting character, for a smurf.).

These factions have no motives, no differences in beliefs, and obeys like gouls to their masters -- no one else in the Imperium does that, not the Inquisitors, not the Adeptus Terra, not the techpriests, not the Minotaurs/Lamentors/Soul Drinkers/Space Wolves/Any Imperial Guard officers ever. That bit of them drop-podding into a Chapter Master chamber was interesting, it's the most interesting thing I've ever heard of the sisters ever doing. They showed signs of being human, being smart, being strong, and decisive. And what else do they do? Getting woven into a ball of flesh, and willingly sacrifice themselves to save one sister -- for the Emperor. If anyone is ever gonna make the Sisters interesting, they need to become more corruptible, not purer.

 Troike wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell does a single assassin take down a whole chapter? They already have problems against single space marines.

They likely couldn't. Though not such an example, this shows that assassins vs. Marines can indeed be a pretty close fight.

There is also the rumour/circumstantial evidence that the loss of the Crimson Fists fortress-monastery might have been partly due to the involvement of the Officio Assassinorum. If thats true it might have possibly been the work of a single Vanus Temple operative. Then there are the Celestial Lions largely wiped out by 'friendly-fire' from snipers, being sent into the situation with that exact goal. Its not impossible that a lone or several assassins might take out almost whole Chapters.

 lcmiracle wrote:
These factions have no motives, no differences in beliefs, and obeys like gouls to their masters -- no one else in the Imperium does that, not the Inquisitors, not the Adeptus Terra, not the techpriests, not the Minotaurs/Lamentors/Soul Drinkers/Space Wolves/Any Imperial Guard officers ever. That bit of them drop-podding into a Chapter Master chamber was interesting, it's the most interesting thing I've ever heard of the sisters ever doing. They showed signs of being human, being smart, being strong, and decisive. And what else do they do? Getting woven into a ball of flesh, and willingly sacrifice themselves to save one sister -- for the Emperor. If anyone is ever gonna make the Sisters interesting, they need to become more corruptible, not purer.

There motive is one of the strongest in the setting. They are the ones that always remain pure and mostly righteous. If more of the Imperial factions were like them we would not be standing knee-deep in the grimdark, with traitors and heretics being one of the most common foes of the Imperium.

Regarding some of the factions mentioned not obeying as 'gouls to their masters', I think the local Commissariat would like a word with some of these individuals.

 lcmiracle wrote:
But the simple fact that the sisters of battle, the orders militants are simply a middle ground between the multi-cultured, lowly Guardsmen, and the uber-ripped Space Marines.

Hmmm... A middle ground in that they're humans using the same equipment as Marines, maybe. But we also see them fighting Marines and winning, and the GW website even once described them as equal to Space Marines (their Acts of Faith presumaly being what closed the gap).

 lcmiracle wrote:
Unlike almost all other Imperium factions, the sisters are all one-faced, promethium-obessed zealots.

One-faced? Not quite:

Several different variations on the theme, there. Also note that the Sisters are extreme religious zealots, of course they're going to be a bit less varied than the IG or SM, who can hail from a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds. Meanwhile, Sisters are all indoctrinated within the same culture and background.

Besides, some of us like promethium-obsessed zealots.

 lcmiracle wrote:
They are uninteresting as a faction and even more uninteresting as characters.

That's entirely subjective. Plenty of people like their characterisation, just as many like the Orks being single-minded barbarians or the Tyrnaids being a relentless hivemind.

 lcmiracle wrote:
These factions have no motives

They have one overriding motive above all else, which can be regarded as pretty cool.

 lcmiracle wrote:
That bit of them drop-podding into a Chapter Master chamber was interesting, it's the most interesting thing I've ever heard of the sisters ever doing.

Understandable. SoB fluff tends to be more obscure than the fluff of other armies, so their cool moments are a bit harder to come by.

Here, this is some pretty cool SoB fluff:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
These factions have no motives, no differences in beliefs, and obeys like gouls to their masters -- no one else in the Imperium does that, not the Inquisitors, not the Adeptus Terra, not the techpriests, not the Minotaurs/Lamentors/Soul Drinkers/Space Wolves/Any Imperial Guard officers ever. That bit of them drop-podding into a Chapter Master chamber was interesting, it's the most interesting thing I've ever heard of the sisters ever doing. They showed signs of being human, being smart, being strong, and decisive. And what else do they do? Getting woven into a ball of flesh, and willingly sacrifice themselves to save one sister -- for the Emperor. If anyone is ever gonna make the Sisters interesting, they need to become more corruptible, not purer.

There motive is one of the strongest in the setting. They are the ones that always remain pure and mostly righteous. If more of the Imperial factions were like them we would not be standing knee-dee in the grimdark, with traitors and heretics being one of the most common foes of the Imperium.

Regarding some of the factions mentioned not obeying as 'gouls to their masters', I think the local Commissariat would like a word with some of these individuals.

Say that to Cain, and to Gaunt, and try to teach their real lesson to those Commissars stupid enough to force their authorities on the Catachans. No, no individual is free of flaw or self-interest. Those who thinks they are, will eventually be worn down by the test of time, should they survive long enough, to cast down their puritan views, consciously or otherwise, to even achieve any success in their lives.

Their faith is the undoing of the Sororitas.

Regardless, my original point, in answering to the whole topic of this thread was that: The Space Marines, however spread or few in number, as of the 42nd Millenium, still poses a great threat to local Imperial forces/rebels/xenos/any undesirables, etc. , and therefore remains both a useful tool and a potential threat. Due also to the high resource it costs to quell a wide-spread Astartes discontent/conflict, the Imperium as a whole is content to maintain the status quo in which the Astartes are autonomous, privileged, unbounded by common laws of local arbites, any other duties thereof other than to maintain their allegiance to the Emperor, to deny taints of Chaos, and (try) to protect their recruiting worlds, submit the gene-seed tithe. Anymore honors must be earned (i.e. new homeworlds) and their equipments maintained/provided by themselves or otherwise requisite as proper.
The Imperium would not grant more power, nor to increase the number of chapters drastically, and see fit to maintain the separation of chapters to weaken their bonds.
In the 42nd millenium, they are needed and are respected for the privileged donkey-caves that they are, and it will not change until can be replaced.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
These factions have no motives, no differences in beliefs, and obeys like gouls to their masters -- no one else in the Imperium does that, not the Inquisitors, not the Adeptus Terra, not the techpriests, not the Minotaurs/Lamentors/Soul Drinkers/Space Wolves/Any Imperial Guard officers ever. That bit of them drop-podding into a Chapter Master chamber was interesting, it's the most interesting thing I've ever heard of the sisters ever doing. They showed signs of being human, being smart, being strong, and decisive. And what else do they do? Getting woven into a ball of flesh, and willingly sacrifice themselves to save one sister -- for the Emperor. If anyone is ever gonna make the Sisters interesting, they need to become more corruptible, not purer.

There motive is one of the strongest in the setting. They are the ones that always remain pure and mostly righteous. If more of the Imperial factions were like them we would not be standing knee-dee in the grimdark, with traitors and heretics being one of the most common foes of the Imperium.

Regarding some of the factions mentioned not obeying as 'gouls to their masters', I think the local Commissariat would like a word with some of these individuals.

Say that to Cain, and to Gaunt, and try to teach their real lesson to those Commissars stupid enough to force their authorities on the Catachans. No, no individual is free of flaw or self-interest. Those who thinks they are, will eventually be worn down by the test of time, should they survive long enough, to cast down their puritan views, consciously or otherwise, to even achieve any success in their lives.

Their faith is the undoing of the Sororitas.

Say that to Chenkov, results dont lie. The Imperium is lenient towards command as long as it is used effectively, Cain and Gaunt still obey the greater structure of the Guard. The moment they step out of line they outlive their use. We have the Terrax Guard on one end and the Catachans on the other regarding Commissars, but they both get the required result. The standard Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer list almost every punishment regarding failure to comply with the rules as death. Most Soritas do what they do out of conviction where the majority of the Guard does it out of harsh discipline and fear.

The test of times thing might sound nice untill one considers the amount of Soritas and Grey Knights have turned traitor compared to Guard Regiments and the Adaptus Astartes. One day one might crack, but the odds so far are heavily in their favour even though a single one might occasionally fall some day.

 Troike wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Celestial Lions largely wiped out by 'friendly-fire' from snipers

No, it was "Ork snipers". As we all know, the greenskins are famed for their extremely accurate snipers.

Darn those green, flashlight wielding deadeyes

You overestimated how often those punishments are actually carried out by the regiments...

But the simple fact that the sisters of battle, the orders militants are simply a middle ground between the multi-cultured, lowly Guardsmen, and the uber-ripped Space Marines. And they are not a good one at either. Unlike almost all other Imperium factions, the sisters are all one-faced, promethium-obessed zealots. They are uninteresting as a faction and even more uninteresting as characters. The same reason why I dislike the Grey Knights and most of the recent depictions of Codex Astartes (Cpt. Titus was at least somewhat of an interesting character, for a smurf.).

Hey, it could be worse. Say, DKoK. Sisters at least have personalities, even if they are kinda monochrome and predictable.

 lcmiracle wrote:
No, no individual is free of flaw or self-interest.

The Sisters, while not flawless, are certainly free of self-interest. Their days are dedicated to prayer and training, and their response to failure is to become outcasts from their Order and go into battle without armour or ranged weapons. They're also very keen on martyrdom.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Those who thinks they are, will eventually be worn down by the test of time, should they survive long enough, to cast down their puritan views, consciously or otherwise, to even achieve any success in their lives.

Demonstrably untrue. The Sisters have never cast aside their puritan nature and they remain a very successful and strong fighting force.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Their faith is the undoing of the Sororitas.

Hardly! It is, in fact, what gives them their edge in 40K. Not only does it give them complete dedication to their cause, but it also lets them perform "seemingly miraculous" feats in battle, such as pushing past a grievous wound or shooting better than they're normally capable of. Really, this is like saying that vast numbers of troops are the undoing of the Imperial Guard, or that superhuman enhancements are the undoing of the Astartes.

I think he meant undoing interestwise, not performancewise.

Many seem to hate Astartes because they are so massively powerful.

It seems the Sisters' supposedly unbreakable resolve makes them appear Sue-ish.

If they really are so selfless, fearless, faithful etc., they only seem rather shallow to me.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think he meant undoing interestwise, not performancewise.

Nah, read the part above

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Many seem to hate Astartes because they are so massively powerful.

It seems the Sisters' supposedly unbreakable resolve makes them appear Sue-ish.

Well, sue-ishness is quite subjective in this case, isn't it? Just right there, you've outlined how one could view your favoured army, the Marines, as "sues" (or at least overly powerful). Certainly, you've seen such viewpoints on here for yourself (just to clarify, I don't dislike the Marines, I've only ever disagreed with others on exactly how powerful Astartes are).

Also, I'd argue that the great faith of the Sisters does have some important drawbacks, and isn't an "I win" button. For example, their origin story has their faith, for a time, being used to utterly manipulate them into serving a crazed tyrant. Also, we see in the Bloodtide that even some Sisters can be affected by chaos. And they don't win all of their battles either, there's an instance of the Orks getting a major victory over the Sisters on Armaggedon, for example. And it's not like said faith is without an explanation, the Sisters are strongly shaped into it from very early in their lives. Similarly, the Marines have extensive bodily modification and excellent equipment to justify their prowess.

But anyway, in general terms, I'd say that all armies need "an edge" of some kind in 40K. Marines get their enhancements, Sisters get their faith, Necrons get their top-tier tech, ect. Every faction needs something that sets them apart, after all.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If they really are so selfless, fearless, faithful etc., they only seem rather shallow to me.

One could equally level such a sentiment against the Marines, couldn't they?

That's just how they've been "forged", to reach the heights of faith and use it in battle. Similarly, the Marines have been forged to go far beyond the strength and skill of ordinary men. These things don't have to make them "shallow" and it certainly doesn't make them invincible, it's just a cool aspect of them.

Well, fair enough if he thinks it holds them back. Fearlessness has its advantages but recklessness and zeal can lead to pointless losses where a more efficient victory had been possible. Still, it's not a bad thing for your soldiers to have generally. (Though, notably, on the tabletop Sororitas are very much able to run from the battle and keep running even in situations where it is not really necessary, get swept, etc.)

And I don't think you are unreasonable at all, just so you know. I think you make good points. But there are so many contradictions and things here. A lot of it is interpretation-based. The issue is when preferences turn into vendettas against certain factions. I mean, I get that some dislike one of the several ways Marines are portrayed- the 'demigod' aspect- but it almost has seemed to reach the point where some say 'B-but X kills tons of Marines real quick and effective =)))))' as if just to protest against the status quo, what with Marines being given the most fluff, has most players, is even described on p151 of the latest WD as the 'core of the 40K universe'. (Wow, that was a long sentence...) Not to offend anyone, of course. I agree that other factions could get a bit more attention. But it's the way it is. In fact, if Sisters got an update (And I mean a real update, like the Necrons or DE got, not an online only crapdex) I would play them. Honestly. It's only the old models, very expensive models, order-only stuff, bad codex and general outdatedness that keeps forcing me away from them.

Besides, I'd prefer it if Sisters had been a 'middle ground' army, much more powerful than a Guardsman but still a fair distance below an Astartes. For example, once I was bored and decided to write up the statline and equipment of a SoB squad if they had been present in the Dawn of War II game.
I'll include the (official) stats of a Guardsman and a Tactical Marine as well, to compare:

Guardsman: Cost: 260 requisition for 6 Guardsmen, 100 HP/model, Armour: Infantry (Normal damage taken) Melee skill: 50 Melee: 2 DPS Ranged: 4.12 DPS Abilities: None
Battle Sister: Cost: 350 requisition for 4 Battle Sisters, 200 HP/model, Armour: Heavy Infantry (-40% ranged damage taken) Melee skill: 50 Melee: 6 DPS Ranged: 9.45 DPS Abilities: Shield of Faith (Temporarily reduces damage taken by 20%)
Space Marine: Cost: 450 requisition for 3 Space Marines, 330 HP/model, Armour: Heavy Infantry (-40% ranged damage taken) Melee skill: 60 Melee: 19 DPS Ranged: 14.58 DPS Abilities: Melee Resistance Aura (Passive) (Reduces melee damage taken by 40%) Kraken Bolts (Temporarily increases damage against Heavy and Super-Heavy infantry by 20%)

It seemed balanced to those I've talked to about it. (Appeal to authority, yay)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If they really are so selfless, fearless, faithful etc., they only seem rather shallow to me.

One could equally level such a sentiment against the Marines, couldn't they?

That's just how they've been "forged", to reach the heights of faith and use it in battle. Similarly, the Marines have been forged to go far beyond the strength and skill of ordinary men. These things don't have to make them "shallow" and it certainly doesn't make them invincible, it's just a cool aspect of them.

Well, Marines can be corrupted, they are not trained better than everyone else to magically become incorruptible. (I still think that seems fishy, but that's just me.) They can and do fail- as several zealously point out- and not only fail battlefield-wise, but in other ways as well.

So I take it you hate Grey Knights as mary sues then?

 Melissia wrote:
So I take it you hate Grey Knights as mary sues then?

Expected that one.

But since when are SoB psykers?

False equivalence, my friend. False equivalence.

Plus, never said I hated SoB as Mary Sues, now did I?