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Hq
1 far seers 115
-bike

Avatar 205
- fast shot

Troops
2x3 jet bikes 102

2x5 dire avengers 400
-wave serpent
-holofields
- scatter laser

Fast
5 warp spiders 110
- exarch
-fast shot

Heavy
2wraith knight 480
- dual cannons

Fort.
Adl 85
-Icarus
Or I drop the spiders add 3 shadow weavers and hadd cannons to the bike squads

thoughts?

IMO I would drop the support platforms for MotLG on one of your seers, 1 more spider in each squad, and 1 chin cannon for whichever wave serpent will be more aggressive. Maybe even drop the 2nd seer for 2 more jetbike squads and a 2nd chin cannon for a serpent, as he wont be very survivable.

^^^ sorry changed the list. So I forgot what the previous one was! I'm trying to see if there is a way to fit in wraith lord. Maybe drop the ADL and the spiders for it?

what are the avatar and the adl doing here?

Adl is used by spiders for 2 shot Icarus and avatar keeps mid field objective holders from falling off objectives and goes for their troops.

For this type of camping list I would drop the farseer's bike and have him sit with the warp spiders to guide/prescience them so TL lascannons *2 shots, probably a dead flyer.

if spiders are going to be sitting in the back, drop them and get dark reapers instead, at least they will be able to shoot at something while sitting back there. also, that Avatar might get shot up pretty fast if he is out there alone.

Yeah, I was actually thinking of either dropping the farseer, or dropping the spiders and the ADL, investing in a wraithlord with just a sword to run up with the avatar behind the wraithknights? Maybe drop the seer and ADL, and get add more spiders in addition to the wraithlord?

Drop:
Farseer's Jetbike, Avatar, 1Jetbike squad, Warpspiders ~430

Get:
1Vaul Support battery squads(3guns), Warlock on Jetbike, Dire Avengers x 5 Waveserpeant scatter holo field, Swooping hawks x 6

You have more scoring units, you make your farseer extremely hard to kill and have the much need mobility eldar need.

If you position the Icarus LC correctly you should be able to have the farseer shoot it while still being in the middle of the vaul support batterys formation

On a side note i would drop a wraithknight for 3 warwalkers scater laster brightlance load out its much more a threat that a wraithknight.

Yeah, but I want to see if I can make the avatar competitive. The only way I thought I could get him to survive across the table, is if there was two wraithknights and a wraithlord with him! I know its tough and obviously not optimal, but I think by dropping the ADL, and possible the farseer, I can add in the swordlord, and some spiders. and it'll be semi-competitive. Or is this just a garbage idea

If you want to run a truely competive avatar list IMHO i think you need to do a guardin spam w/ a decent amount of warlocks in the army as well. Maybe something like this:

Avatar 195
Farseer 100
Warlocks x 3 105
Warlock Bike 50
Jetike x 3 51
Guardian Defenders x 20 Scatter Laser 200
Guardian Defenders x 20 Scatter Laser 200
Storm Guardians x 19 171
Swooping Hawks x 6 96
VaulSupport Battery x 3 90
Wraithknight 240

1498pts

Turn 2 w/ swooping hawks you can precision deepstrike in the middle of their army and make you opponenet have to dedicate fire to take them out. For your warlock prey for renew lol and for your farseer fortune or if you really wanna be funny, roll on telepathy and try and get invisability LMAO!!! put some guardians infront of the avatar for a 2+ cover save and when you get close cast it on a guardian squad so your opponents WS is only a 1

Yeah. I think it might work that way only as well but, is 4 scoring to little in the OP list? I think that is fairly solid to be honest. then the rest is just to kill. I could always drop the serpents, add 2 squads of guardians , turn the dire avengers into 1 unit and add an exarch and shimmershield. Makes them more survivable, but kills a lot of fire power.

3 scoring units that are 20 models are hard to kill. Not to mention if you dont get Renew just take conceal and you will have a 5+ cover save no matter what.If it was me i would abuse cover saves to get to the enemy. Cast conceal on the jetbikes and turbo boost infront of your army so bc of intervening models you would then get a 3+ coversave or make them shoot at your jetbikes (2+ coversave) and not your wraithknight or Avatar for a turn. If you really wanna be funny put your vaul support batteries in the front of your army. and just walk up the field that way w/ a T7 front wall 3+save

The only problem is that 20 guardians with cover does not last long against eldar or tau


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hq
Avatar 205
- fast shot

Troops
2x3 jet bikes 102

2x5 dire avengers 400
-wave serpent
-holofields
- scatter laser

Fast
2x5 warp spiders 190

Heavy
2wraith knight 480
- dual cannons

Wraithlord 125
-Sword
-Dual Flamers

or I can take out the warp spiders, the fast shot, and include one more wave serpent with dire avengers in it. I think we're starting to get a solid list here.

TBH if you play against another eldar player spaming Waveserpeants & warwalkers you are pretty much screwed not to mention if they have a Wraithknigh (or guard) w/ Distort avatar dies pretty quickly.

I dont see the point in the Wraithlord, he seems like a point sink. if you are gonna run him right next to your avatar all im gonna do is constantly focus on the avatar and when the wraithlord or knight get close. instead of shooting my melta weapons at the avatar seeing how it doesnt hurt him im just gonna focus on the easily killed wraithlord w/ only 3 wounds.

TBH if you play against another eldar player spaming Waveserpeants & warwalkers you are pretty much screwed not to mention if they have a Wraithknigh (or guard) w/ Distort avatar dies pretty quickly.

I dont see the point in the Wraithlord, he seems like a point sink. if you are gonna run him right next to your avatar all im gonna do is constantly focus on the avatar and when the wraithlord or knight get close. instead of shooting my melta weapons at the avatar seeing how it doesnt hurt him im just gonna focus on the easily killed wraithlord w/ only 3 wounds.

But that is the point. I much rather you shoot and kill my Wraith lord, than at my Wraith knights. The wraith knights have so much more utility, that if someone is willing to shoot at the wraith lord instead of the knight I'm a happy camper. With the knights moving so fast up the board, I expect them to be the focus though rather than on the avatar and wraithlord. I really plan on using the wraithknights as assaulters more than anything. And I have a feeling that they won't be ignored. I really only see two holes in the list. One I made deliberately which is not good, but I had to to fit everything in. This off course is the lack of AA. while waveserpents aren't bad at this, they are no where near good enough to take on necron air force. That will be a tough match. Second tough match I believe will be Eldar wraith armies. they can ID my MC's which will ultimately make me lose the game since I rely on them so much. In that case, I will have to try and maneuver my way out of the jam.

Where i play we all just ignore the wraithknights they arent really a threat. normally you can throw a unit at them and tie them in assault for a turn or two. Maybe against Tau they might be a threat but they are one of the best armies of killing them aswell.

Why do you think tau are one of the best armies at killing wraithknights? I would say the best is elder, followed by white scar grav spam.

i said one of the best lol. Obviously eldar is up there. But for what you are wanting to do with yours, you are going to die probli before you get into assault. Dont forget the army has support fire so say you do get close enough to assault your probli gonna die soon after. I dont acknowledge grav spam but snipers, and hellfire rounds can defiantly do the trick too.

okay so then how should I change the OP list? I would like to fit in a shadow weaver battery and the ADL, but can't seem to find a way to do that other than getting rid of a wraithknight. Which If I did, would include a battery of d-cannons

Why d-cannons? they dont have the range you need, you are gonna have to move them twice probli before you can fire them.

Drop the spiders for a Vaul support battery and get a warlock on bike too (drop the farseer on bike & fast shot)

toocool61 wrote:
Hq
Avatar 205
- fast shot

Troops
2x3 jet bikes 102

2x5 dire avengers 400
-wave serpent
-holofields
- scatter laser

Fast
2x5 warp spiders 190

Heavy
2wraith knight 480
- dual cannons

Wraithlord 125
-Sword
-Dual Flamers

Nettik189 wrote:
I dont see the point in the Wraithlord, he seems like a point sink.

I use Wraithlord every game, and he is points well spent!

Working off the quoted list, I humbly suggest:
-Dropping the second Wraithknight.
-Taking 2 War Walkers with 4x EML and Flakk.
-Taking Disarming Strike on the Avatar.

That should give you the AA you need, provide versatile fire, and spread your eggs to other baskets (Hull Points vs MC Wounds).
Disarming Strike will give the Avatar a better chance against some of the nastier CC monsters by removing their force or power weapons.

I'd rather get rid of the wraith lord than the knight to be honest. The wraith knight outclasses its little brother by a lot. Thinking of dropping the wraith lord, and 4 spiders to get me shadow weaver platforms and a farseer and the 10pt runes.

Farseer Pef wrote:

toocool61 wrote:
Hq
Avatar 205
- fast shot

Troops
2x3 jet bikes 102

2x5 dire avengers 400
-wave serpent
-holofields
- scatter laser

Fast
2x5 warp spiders 190

Heavy
2wraith knight 480
- dual cannons

Wraithlord 125
-Sword
-Dual Flamers

-Taking 2 War Walkers with 4x EML and Flakk.


That should give you the AA you need, provide versatile fire, and spread your eggs to other baskets (Hull Points vs MC Wounds).
Disarming Strike will give the Avatar a better chance against some of the nastier CC monsters by removing their force or power weapons.

ummm are you new? 4 eml is a complete waste of points, when you can be taking brightlances for so much cheaper. flakk missiles are antoehr complete waste. go onto mathhammer40k.com and run the numbers, or just do it in your brain. 4 flakk missiles wont hurt any flier. and thats a 40 point upgrade. a complete waste.

if you want anti air, get 1 of 2 eldars anti air. 10 warpspiders guided are amazing, and a crimson hunter is good.
never take flakk walkers.

Agreed with above flakk walkers are the worst edition to this codex.

Walkers with double BL and guide work much better for much cheaper, or take crimsonhunters i normally run 2 in any competitive list.

Because Guide is just around the corner, waiting to be used.

I am providing contextual advice based on the list he has, which lacks a Farseer.
Yes, Crimson Hunter is a valid option. Glad you suggested it for the OP's sake.
This is a TAC list. I suggest War Walkers with EML because they are versatile, not just for the AA (though I think he could use more of it, since he cites Necron Air Force as being a concern).
Flakks are not garbage. I can lay down the math:
4 Flakks without Guide: 4 x BS x Glance/Pen x Jink failing; Explodes chance (based on AP) x Pen chance
- vs AV12: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(1/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.29 Pens; 5% Explodes chance
- vs AV11: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(2/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.59 Pens; 10% Explodes chance
- vs AV10: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(3/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.89 Pens; 15% Explodes chance
4 Guided BLs: 4 x (BS1 x Guide) x Glance/Pen x Jink failing; Explodes chance (based on AP) x Pen chance
- vs AV12: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(2/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.27 Pens; 9% Explodes chance
- vs AV11: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(3/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.41 Pens; 14% Explodes chance
- vs AV10: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(4/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.54 Pens; 18% Explodes chance

Flakks without Guide outperform BLs with Guide. The chance for an Explodes result is slightly higher for the BLs, but Flakks are more likely to actually strip HPs.

Farseer Pef wrote:
Because Guide is just around the corner, waiting to be used.
Flakks are not garbage. I can lay down the math:
4 Flakks without Guide: 4 x BS x Glance/Pen x Jink failing; Explodes chance (based on AP) x Pen chance
- vs AV12: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(1/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.29 Pens; 5% Explodes chance
- vs AV11: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(2/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.59 Pens; 10% Explodes chance
- vs AV10: 4 x 4/6 x 1/6(3/6) x 2/3 = 0.29 Glances, 0.89 Pens; 15% Explodes chance
4 Guided BLs: 4 x (BS1 x Guide) x Glance/Pen x Jink failing; Explodes chance (based on AP) x Pen chance
- vs AV12: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(2/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.27 Pens; 9% Explodes chance
- vs AV11: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(3/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.41 Pens; 14% Explodes chance
- vs AV10: 4 x 11/36 x 1/6(4/6) x 2/3 = 0.14 Glances, 0.54 Pens; 18% Explodes chance

Flakks without Guide outperform BLs with Guide. The chance for an Explodes result is slightly higher for the BLs, but Flakks are more likely to actually strip HPs.

well duh flakk is better than bright lances for anti air, but look at the statistics. there garbage.
I was saying take lances because they do well vs tanks that aren't fliers, in fact they do amazing, while flakk is below decent and triple more than TRIPLE the price.

compare flakk vs a crimson hunter or warp spiders. you'll see.

What about SL vs flakk missiles if the SL were TL by guide/prescience.

for warwalkers i like SL BL combo but i outflank mine. If i just wanted warwalkers to pop tank it would be BLx2 and if its anti horde just one SL and SC.

Scatter laser and shurkin cannon or star cannon? Double shurkins arn't bad for close up shootin.