Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Actually, the lethality of arrows is severely overstated in popular culture. They weren't the sure-fire weapon modern movies constantly attempt to shove down your throat and would be near useless against someone in armor compared to other defenses like pikemen, because the ideal weapon to fight knights is one capable of ripping his armor open like a lobster while staying as far away as possible.

Yeah... you're full of it. Having person first-hand knowledge of what you're talking about, an arrow will go through plate armour at moderate ranges when loosed by a bow with a large enough draw - not the pathetic draw most modern archers have, but the proper 185lbs draw welsh longbow? No problem.

By the way, if you're firing an arrow, you're doing something seriously wrong.

They looked at the bones of longbowmen and apparently the arm bones where slowly merging because of the power of the draw. thats a lot of power.

Power armour is said to have a membrane behind the plates to help absorb such impacts and either way do you not think a veteran of hundreds of wars would get used to being knocked around inside his armour

And yes the Bolter does indeed have a relatively huge range (up too 1000m apperntly but the reactive part would still kill you) BUT that's not how Space marines fight other than Tellion though is it

 Psienesis wrote:
...except Gaunt and some naked tribals kill an entire squad of them with bows and arrows.

And satchel charges. Don't forget that for epic cool.

My parents are both archers as well, and when someone did a 'trust exercise' with my father which involved pushing down on his arm (the idea was to demonstrate that if you do it normally and just force your arm back, you'll get pushed down, but if you do it a certain special way, it's immovable) where he's been holding out bows for so many years, nobody could even move his arm.

My dad's not even a particularly strong archer.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
...except Gaunt and some naked tribals kill an entire squad of them with bows and arrows.

And satchel charges. Don't forget that for epic cool.

Ifthose were the Nihtgane, they weren't really 'naked tribals'. The Nihtgane reynbows are explicitly stated to be magnetic induction weapons - you know, like railguns.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Obviously the Space Marine is better, but how better?

Getting back to the original point and away from the archery

A Stormtrooper is what a Space Marine would be without power armor and genetic engineering. All the ridiculous training, all the conditioning, just not the extra "gear" as it were. They're what usually does the job when there are no Space Marines around (or other equivalents like DKoK Grenadiers, Cadian Kasrkin, etc).

The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

That is true, and that is stupid.

And I'd argue that the hellgun is easily on par with a bolter, so all the marines have are the enhancements and their PA.

Something's to note. Gaunt's deal. When GW had stats for them, his crew has several multi wound characters. Gaunt is a master swordsman at Lord Commisar level and he has a couple dozen allies with basically DE guns and at least BS 4 and stealth/shrouded.

So an elite command squad, fully kitted out, and 24 DE with poorer CC stats shoot at 4 CSM. Yeah, they should have died.

Second, unlike CSM, 40k codex marines all did the storm trooper thing... As bootcamp. Other than BS, SM scouts are on par or better than storm troopers at stealth, and in fluff many chapters would be better.

So that tank with a massive gun, wearing blue, don't forget that if he wants to, he can likely out sneak your sneaky troopers... And SM squads have special weapons too. Flamers, missile launchers, heavy bolters, etc ruin a storm troopers day awful quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While using Gaunt as a source, he also fights with them a couple times, read that to get an appreciation for the comparison between the two. Marines > stormtroopers, by long shot.

Stormtroopers are not sneaky troops. They're a heavy infantry force.

That depends on which lore you read.

They HAVE been retconnedt o be heavy infantry though.

 Psienesis wrote:
Stormtroopers are not sneaky troops. They're a heavy infantry force.

I know, people keep talking about stealth, ambush, jungle warfare, etc giving stormtroopers the drop on marines. I'm saying it's the opposite.

 Psienesis wrote:
Stormtroopers are not sneaky troops. They're a heavy infantry force.

Their table top role says otherwise. Arent they behind enemy lines, fight while isolated and drop in and hold style fighters?

Isnt this what Space marines do too?

They're sneaky too, Grenadiers aren't.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Stormtroopers are not sneaky troops. They're a heavy infantry force.

Their table top role says otherwise. Arent they behind enemy lines, fight while isolated and drop in and hold style fighters?

No? 5 of them show up to a warzone and show the Imperial Guardsmen how to crack open a hardened enemy fortress, often being the tip of the spear (and the guys that blow the gate/door/wall/whatever) and leading the charge into the now-open fortress, with the weight of the IG Regiment(s) coming in behind them.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Stormtroopers are not sneaky troops. They're a heavy infantry force.

Their table top role says otherwise. Arent they behind enemy lines, fight while isolated and drop in and hold style fighters?

No? 5 of them show up to a warzone and show the Imperial Guardsmen how to crack open a hardened enemy fortress, often being the tip of the spear (and the guys that blow the gate/door/wall/whatever) and leading the charge into the now-open fortress, with the weight of the IG Regiment(s) coming in behind them.

Whenever i have read about them they have always been that sneaky elite force, im not very full on my fluff though as im not much of a fan of anything but the guard.

In the rules they deepstrike or infiltrate or scout (each one with bonuses). If they where heavy troops id expect them to, well do nothing more than what any other guardsmen does.

As I said, rulewise, Stormtroopers do all those things, while Grenadiers have the same equipement, but can only walk around on the battlefield.

 Bobthehero wrote:
As I said, rulewise, Stormtroopers do all those things, while Grenadiers have the same equipement, but can only walk around on the battlefield.

Ok sweet as. that makes sense.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

Wait, what. Stormtroopers just have some slight drugs/genetic enhancement when they're young orphans and are put through training at a young age for over a decade. These are somehow more rare than guys that take decades to produce with precious irreplaceable resources? How the hell is something so easily produced numbering LESS than a million?

(Although this also brings up the question, why doesn't the Imperium simply mass produce Scout Marines, which are easier to produce, lack power armor, but are still lethally effective. A Chapter with any brains would realize that adding a thousand scouts to their numbers would also increase the longevity of the normal astartes and make the fighting force more effective.)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

IIRC the ST numbers haven't been directly referenced in quite a while, possibly since 2E (I certainly don't recall it in either the 3.5E or 5E IG books or any BL fluff since then), and since then we've had a much more realistic re-envisioning of the size of the IG now numbering in the billions of regiments in total. That number last stood (again IIRC) when the "gargantuan" wars for Armageddon involved only about as many IG troops as the complete sideshow of the siege of Vraks. Granted it hasn't been contradicted, but it's probably suspect at this point. And, that said, I did note equivalents, of which there are quite a few from many worlds.

Fluff say's there's a single regiment of 10 000 stormtroopers.

However, in some of the FW book, we have over 4000 compagnies of Stormtroopers, so that contradicts the number, and for the better.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

IIRC the ST numbers haven't been directly referenced in quite a while, possibly since 2E (I certainly don't recall it in either the 3.5E or 5E IG books or any BL fluff since then), and since then we've had a much more realistic re-envisioning of the size of the IG now numbering in the billions of regiments in total. That number last stood (again IIRC) when the "gargantuan" wars for Armageddon involved only about as many IG troops as the complete sideshow of the siege of Vraks. Granted it hasn't been contradicted, but it's probably suspect at this point. And, that said, I did note equivalents, of which there are quite a few from many worlds.

I'd wave most statements from the old editions which no longer represent W40K well at all. Plus Storm Troopers numbering less than Astartes is just.... fething idiotic. It's like there being more SEALs than Marines. Just. Wat.

I wouldn't do that, I would stand on what the old edition says, unless and until a newer Codex or rulebook says something else. Otherwise.... well, we lose most of the background lore of the game. Codices and such are featuring less and less fluff, and very little fluff about things not focused on the faction the Codex is about (which is not that surprising)...

... but we rely on things like RoC and previous IA, WD, and other publications, which feature more information on the galaxy at large, the history, the non-warfighting-factions and people of the galaxy to fill in the blanks.

And as it stands, there is a single Stormtrooper Regiment of 10,000 soldiers, raised exclusively through the Schola Progenium. It is, in a sense, where the boys go while the girls go to the Sororitas, as they have very, very similar requirements. A Stormtrooper is *not* just a soldier in fancy armor. They are, physically, better than their peers, mentally better than their peers, and have faith to rival a Sister.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

Wait, what. Stormtroopers just have some slight drugs/genetic enhancement when they're young orphans and are put through training at a young age for over a decade. These are somehow more rare than guys that take decades to produce with precious irreplaceable resources? How the hell is something so easily produced numbering LESS than a million?

Because the key thing about making Stormtroopers is the same thing that limits the number of Adepta Sororitas (who are also outnumbered by Space Marines);

They only recruit from the Schola Progenium. They only recruit the hardest-hearted, most accurate and deadliest Progena for the Stormtroopers - Marines? Marine recruitment is easy. Get a bunch of kids in a pit on a random planet and take the survivors. The Schola doesn't have that luxury.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that statement, Vaktathi, is that the Space Marines outnumber the Storm Troopers by a significant margin.

Wait, what. Stormtroopers just have some slight drugs/genetic enhancement when they're young orphans and are put through training at a young age for over a decade. These are somehow more rare than guys that take decades to produce with precious irreplaceable resources? How the hell is something so easily produced numbering LESS than a million?

Because the key thing about making Stormtroopers is the same thing that limits the number of Adepta Sororitas (who are also outnumbered by Space Marines);

They only recruit from the Schola Progenium. They only recruit the hardest-hearted, most accurate and deadliest Progena for the Stormtroopers - Marines? Marine recruitment is easy. Get a bunch of kids in a pit on a random planet and take the survivors. The Schola doesn't have that luxury.

Well that's another case of writers have no sense of scale in W40K. When you have trillions/quadrillions of citizens, even the lowest percentages will result in millions of graduates. There's a lack of any realism in W40K, then there's just absurd stupidity. If your grand total of minimally augmented soldiers is less than those of your heavily augmented best soldiers, somebody fethed up big time somewhere on the line.

You seem to be missing a large part of the point of 40k.

The Imperium is so large that it has been rendered completely incompetent in day to day things.

Space Marines only have the numbers they do because they all handle all of their own recruiting. If it was up to the Administratum, they'd get one recruit a century or something equally ridiculous.

The infrastructure just isn't there to give the 'basic minimal augmentations', otherwise everyone in the Imperial Guard would have them. Elysia is one of the richest planets in the entire Imperium and they can't give their troops gene-augments!

Space Marine heavy augmentations are sacred rituals only known to the chapter apothecaries (or wolf priests, in the Rout's case). They rely on most of the work having already been done for them by the progenoid glands. If they had to do it manually like the Stormtroopers do, they would die out in weeks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You seem to be missing a large part of the point of 40k.

The Imperium is so large that it has been rendered completely incompetent in day to day things.

Space Marines only have the numbers they do because they all handle all of their own recruiting. If it was up to the Administratum, they'd get one recruit a century or something equally ridiculous.

The infrastructure just isn't there to give the 'basic minimal augmentations', otherwise everyone in the Imperial Guard would have them. Elysia is one of the richest planets in the entire Imperium and they can't give their troops gene-augments!

Space Marine heavy augmentations are sacred rituals only known to the chapter apothecaries (or wolf priests, in the Rout's case). They rely on most of the work having already been done for them by the progenoid glands. If they had to do it manually like the Stormtroopers do, they would die out in weeks.

Yeah, except they have trillion-quadrillion of citizens and the Adeptus Astartes already constantly inducts scouts and has the technology to go through the augmentation process and understands said technology. The Imperium already has the technology to produce Storm Troopers, and the population to produce BILLIONS of them in greater number than the Astartes augmentation rate. There is no lost technology, THEY HAVE IT. That and they are not are not typically on that level of incompetency. All it would take is for one of the greater military leaders to simply ask for more, and it would be done. Hell, just have the Fists and the Ultramarines outright demand it happens. 10,000 Storm Troopers isn't even compatible with modern W40K, it's a relic from a bygone age of the game and best tossed aside simply because it's as compatible as eldar hybrid space marines. Old fluff is interesting in a humorous way, but might as well be a different universe.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Fluff say's there's a single regiment of 10 000 stormtroopers.

However, in some of the FW book, we have over 4000 compagnies of Stormtroopers, so that contradicts the number, and for the better.

If it was a single regiment they would have become an extinct organization and entity.

But they haven't. This is 40K, you can't apply the real-world logic, because by that note the Space Marines are an absolutely useless organization. There's only 1 million of 'em, that's one per planet.

One StormTrooper Regiment, 10,000 soldiers strong.

This is not the same batch of guys that are called "Inquisitorial Stormtroopers", those are IG-like elements under the direct control of the Inquisition, for when they don't want/need to act in the shadows, and can just kick down doors and bust heads.

at this level, between two elite types of fighters like the SM's and the ST's, it comes down 100% more to the SPECIFIC conditions of the fight more then anything related to the warriors different specialties or varience in skill.

IE whoever caught who off guard or at a vulnerable time, or just had the advantage of a better leader or advantageous terrain at the time.


edge to the marines when comparing 1-1 in a vacuum though

Exactly that, easysauce.

If the Stormtroopers were able to successfully spring an ambush on the Space Marines, you'd have a bunch of dead Space Marines in very short order, because hellguns give not a single feth about Power Armor.

By the same token, boltguns don't really care about carapace, and in close-quarters combat, the Marine has the size, speed and strength to easily overpower a Stormtrooper.