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So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.

Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything. If you walk into a Starbucks, you don't have to buy coffee, and you sure as hell don't have to stay in Starbucks to drink it. If I walk into my FLGS, and I buy a box of Devastators, why should I have to also play there? Moreover, if that store doesn't offer my any sort of incentive to keep buying there, why would I? Short answer: I wouldn't.

Long answer: I haven't gotten anything full price from GW in over a year. It's a bit like Michaels (a rather expensive craft store, if you're unfamiliar); never buy at full price. There's always a way to buy for cheaper (michaels sends out huge coupons, some around 50% off), so why don't you? I know a friend of mine hates buying online, so he goes to GW or said FLGS to get his stuff. I have two stores near me: Game Parlor (GP) and Hobby Works (HW).

GP sells w/o discount, but offers a rewards program for those who want it. Each purchase earns you some money (pennies on the dollar), and after a while you can save enough to get something free. I've gotten a DE Warriors box free, though that was 2011.

HW sells with a 15% discount on tuesdays only, because that's 40k day. You play, you get a discount.

Both of these stores have something going for them: some sort of program that allows customers to save a bit of money. If they didn't have those, I can be damn sure that they wouldn't be doing as well as they are. Of course, they sell much more than just 40k stuff, but for GP I know that 40k is their main seller. Incentives that save the customer money are paramount in running a business. So why would someone buy expensive products at full price when they can very easily not? Some sort of store loyalty? Did the store owner guilt trip you into feeling bad because you're ruining his income? No one who understands business just starts a game store and expects people to flock to them without doing anything to earn the flocking. Not just that, but I have bills, a girlfriend, and gas to pay for. Sure, I live close to a game store, but why would I shop there when I can save a little extra money by not driving and simply ordering, at a much larger discount, online?

The post on Apocalypse40k on the incident seemed strangely "stockholm-syndrome." An online retailer was using an online shopping cart and selling things at a great discount, and the author took it upon himself to alert GW to this multiple times. Why? Why try ruin someone's business, even if they were going against GWs retailer rules, when they provide exactly the same service as your FLGS but they simply do it better? Who cares if you use their space but don't buy from them, it's their job to entice you to buy their goods/services, I shouldn't have to out of simple respect, or because I feel guilty for using their space. The space is there for a reason, and just because you don't buy from them doesn't preclude you from using the space to play a game you enjoy.

The last few years have been hard economically for lot of us. I am no exception, and if a shop wants my business, they have to earn it. That's a very simple concept that, apparently, some businesses do not understand. Starbucks makes great coffee (to some people), and so people run to a Starbucks and buy that $5.25 cup of coffee. The company has a reputation of excellent service and excellent products. Games Workshop, on the other had, has the exact opposite reputation. Their products, especially finecast, range from awesome to garbage, and their service has the same variance. Their policies are archaic and draconian, and unlike a large company like starbucks, are only concerned with short term sales because they have no idea who they're actually selling their products to.

If a FLGS wants me to buy at their store, or play at their store, they have to be able to overcome both the preconception that GW policies and prices suck. Most of us enjoy the game and want to keep playing, despite the stupid prices of their models.

I assume you don't play in your FLGS? and you don't wish to help support a local business?

Sure, you can buy where ever you want.

However, if you're not spending money at your FLGS, it's kind of hypocritical to expect to be able to play there whenever you want.

If you're the kind of person that plays at home or in private clubs, this obviously doesn't apply to you. However, if you're the kind fo person that likes to go play at a gaming store, it's pretty obnoxious to do so without making any contribution to that store staying open.

You say the space is there for a reason, but apparently have no idea what that reason it. The space is there to encourage people to buy from that store because they give people someplace to play. That's the only reason the space is there. It isn't there just so you can go in and play whenever you want. It is private property. If you're not buying from them, what possible reason does the store have for providing that space?

What you seem completely incapable of understanding is the simple fact that a brick and mortar store has significantly higher overhead than an online retailer. A brick and mortar store cannot offer the same kinds of discounts as a online retailer and stay in business. Similarly, the online retailer doesn't provide any space for you to play, does it?

If you're not spending money at your FLGS, don't start complaining when they move to Magic the Gathering to make money to keep the doors open, and give up the majority of their tables to that game system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the OP: I re-read your post. If your position is accurately portrayed by your post, then I'm comfortable in saying you're the kind of "customer" that every single gaming store owner in the USA wishes would never darken their doorway.

 McNinja wrote:
So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.

Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything.

What % of your games do you play at your FLGS, and what % of your games take place at home, a club, or some other destination.

OP, no one is forcing you to buy from the FLGS, just as no one is forcing the FLGS to let you use their tables just because you want to and feel it's your right, because it isn't.

I buy retail sometimes, because I like buying something at a store and then go home and start using it the same day. Swedish online stores charge way too much shipping, and UK stores take a long time. If I need something now the local GW store is the only option. There is a great FLGS in the area but they stopped stocking GW altogether, otherwise I'd buy all my GW stuff from them.

You buy from whatever source you want. But the store tables are not yours.

If the difference in price is only a few dollars, I'm usually happy to support my FLGS. For no other reason than the ability to go in to a store, talk to someone, look at the models, walk out with them and take them back if there's a problem is worth a few dollars to me over buying something online.

The problem with GW stuff in Australia at least is that the prices are friggin insane, forcing me to look for the cheapest possible option.

I'll still support my FLGS by buying food there and if I happen to be in the store and want something and don't want to wait to go home, order online and get it shipped, I'll just buy it from the FLGS for convenience sake.

It's not because I feel the need to prop up my FLGS. If they can't stay profitable, that's their problem, not mine (it might be my misfortune if I wanted to use their tables, but still not my responsibility to prop them up).

I think we've had this discussion before, if FLGS's are using tables to try and get you to buy models that are more expensive, that's really not a great business plan and it's not our responsibility to uphold their poor business plan. The smarter thing to do would be to charge a few bucks to use the tables and/or maybe a monthly membership fee to cover the costs, and if they want they can give coupons to members to increase model sales as well.

TLDR: It's not my responsibility to keep the FLGS afloat, it's their responsibility to ensure they are conducting their business in a way that keeps them afloat.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I assume you don't play in your FLGS? and you don't wish to help support a local business?

I'll support their business if I want to, and no I don't usually play outside my home. Not because I hate people, but because I don't usually have the time. Games I play are usually unscheduled and at random times because of my schedule.

Saldiven wrote:Sure, you can buy where ever you want.

However, if you're not spending money at your FLGS, it's kind of hypocritical to expect to be able to play there whenever you want.

If you're the kind of person that plays at home or in private clubs, this obviously doesn't apply to you. However, if you're the kind fo person that likes to go play at a gaming store, it's pretty obnoxious to do so without making any contribution to that store staying open.

You say the space is there for a reason, but apparently have no idea what that reason it. The space is there to encourage people to buy from that store because they give people someplace to play. That's the only reason the space is there. It isn't there just so you can go in and play whenever you want. It is private property. If you're not buying from them, what possible reason does the store have for providing that space?

What you seem completely incapable of understanding is the simple fact that a brick and mortar store has significantly higher overhead than an online retailer. A brick and mortar store cannot offer the same kinds of discounts as a online retailer and stay in business. Similarly, the online retailer doesn't provide any space for you to play, does it?

If you're not spending money at your FLGS, don't start complaining when they move to Magic the Gathering to make money to keep the doors open, and give up the majority of their tables to that game system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the OP: I re-read your post. If your position is accurately portrayed by your post, then I'm comfortable in saying you're the kind of "customer" that every single gaming store owner in the USA wishes would never darken their doorway.

Using open-for-use tables to get people to buy wargaming products is like Starbucks using their tables and chairs to get people to buy coffee. Not a sound business plan in the least.

kronk wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.

Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything.

What % of your games do you play at your FLGS, and what % of your games take place at home, a club, or some other destination.

Usually my home, but again my schedule as of late has prevented my from doing anything other than texting friends and scheduling a game late at night. The last four games I played were all after 10pm.

fishy bob wrote:OP, no one is forcing you to buy from the FLGS, just as no one is forcing the FLGS to let you use their tables just because you want to and feel it's your right, because it isn't.

I buy retail sometimes, because I like buying something at a store and then go home and start using it the same day. Swedish online stores charge way too much shipping, and UK stores take a long time. If I need something now the local GW store is the only option. There is a great FLGS in the area but they stopped stocking GW altogether, otherwise I'd buy all my GW stuff from them.

You buy from whatever source you want. But the store tables are not yours.

I do not own them, but if they're open for use I can indeed use them. Game Parlor has tables set up permanently, while Hobby Works has plastic tables they put up before and take down after every 40k day is finished.

I have spent probably $500 at Game Parlor and about $100 at Hobby Works. I will "help out" a store when I want to, if I feel like the price is good for the product. You, as a person, aren't responsible for keeping the store afloat. If they can't get their customers to buy things, then they need to re-evaluate their business plan. That's just how it works.

So, what is the point of this thread? To whine? Where do you work, out of curiosity? I'd love to draw some business model comparisons.

As for FLGS: You simply don't understand that FLGS often exist to go beyond just selling. If all they did was sell, they could call it quits and get Walmart to stock models. Or go straight up online (granted, that is much harder now after the updated trade agreements). You also don't understand why Starbucks provide seating. By your arguments, it is apparently a bad idea for fast food places to provide seating too. At the FLGS it's an atmosphere, and a marketing, thing. It gets people to stay, and in the door more often. Go ask some of them why they have tables, instead of spouting attempts at justifying you buying online but feeling entitled to use their space. You are no more entitled than you are to use a McDonalds 'dining room' to eat Subway.

For me I don't think theres any FLGS near me, only option is a GW, which I only visited recently after getting back into painting 40k. I don't see a problem buying there, even though all I see is complaints about GW. How I see it is that if you have the money to spend, and would like to support a business you like, an FLGS for instance, IF you have that choice of course, buy from them sure.
And yeah I can see the thing about expecting to be able to walk in and play on Stores tables when you have never bought from them, to me that just seems kind of rude. You're using their facilities, so I think you should have bought at least one thing from their store at some point.

Imagine if you owned a small sandwich stall, and you have a couple tables right in front of it, then someone walks along and sits at one of them, eating a subway sandwich. That would be pretty annoying.

 troa wrote:
So, what is the point of this thread? To whine? Where do you work, out of curiosity? I'd love to draw some business model comparisons.

As for FLGS: You simply don't understand that FLGS often exist to go beyond just selling. If all they did was sell, they could call it quits and get Walmart to stock models. Or go straight up online (granted, that is much harder now after the updated trade agreements). You also don't understand why Starbucks provide seating. By your arguments, it is apparently a bad idea for fast food places to provide seating too. At the FLGS it's an atmosphere, and a marketing, thing. It gets people to stay, and in the door more often. Go ask some of them why they have tables, instead of spouting attempts at justifying you buying online but feeling entitled to use their space. You are no more entitled than you are to use a McDonalds 'dining room' to eat Subway.

That's not at all what I'm saying. People buy coffee from starbucks because they enjoy the coffee. If all they wanted to do was sit and sip coffee, they wouldn't go the Starbucks in a very busy mall, get their coffee, and continue shopping. Starbucks has seating and tables because people enjoy that; the atmosphere of most Starbucks is one of friendliness and comfort. You can meet up with friends, grab coffee, catch up, etc, all in the comfort of the store, and if you need more coffee, BAM, good to go. Some people just like to get away.

The same goes with FLGS's. Their main purpose is to sell a product. Tables, chairs, all a luxury, but also a huge boon to their business because people can chill out and meet new people. It is most definitely an atmosphere thing, and I'm not about to deny that. All I am saying is that simply using the tables as your only method of selling products is a bad idea. It shouldn't be your sole method of gaining new customers.

And the point of this thread is to get people's opinions on this sort of things. Perhaps I was a bit too "on the attack," but I'm not here to whine and complain that businesses owe me nothing, just find out why people feel the need to justify spending more than they need to on already expensive products. Supporting a business or shop owner you like is a good enough reason, though not necessarily something I'd do.

The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.

I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.

So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.

 notprop wrote:
The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.

Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that simply trusting your patrons to buy from you instead of offering some sort of deal other than "hey you like the game, well I sell stuff for your game and am only 10 minutes away from your house" isn't a magical business plan. Starbucks and FLGSs have tables for patron to use. You are't required to buy things to use them at Starbucks. People buy because they think they're getting a great product at their convenience. There's a starbucks on nearly every corner where I live (there are three within a mile of each other), so it really is convenient, and that is the same reason people like my friend buy at brick-and-mortar stores; its quick to drive ten minutes, buy it, then drive back home, than it is to order it.

I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.

So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.

I am not, in any way, trying to say screw anyone over. When I played the game more often, I bought things my closest FLGS. My friends still do, and most don't play there. I do not mean to sound entitled, and for that I apologize.

 McNinja wrote:

And the point of this thread is to get people's opinions on this sort of things. Perhaps I was a bit too "on the attack," but I'm not here to whine and complain that businesses owe me nothing, just find out why people feel the need to justify spending more than they need to on already expensive products. Supporting a business or shop owner you like is a good enough reason, though not necessarily something I'd do.

Well I would agree that you sounded on the attack but at least you said you aren't trying to whine
Your comparison to Starbucks brings up a point I want to make....Supporting a local business is better than supporting a multinational corporation.

Obviously people want to save money because everyone works hard for their money and wants to squeeze as much out of it as we can, that's why people shop at Walmart because they are cheaper for instance. With a FLGS vs a Games Workshop is that your FLGS is run by someone in a town that wants to make a living but the GW is huge corporation that's going to make its money and won't go belly up.
I don't see why you wouldn't support a local business...even if it's just buying a product here and there while still buying online for greater discounts. I live in a medium sized town with one flgs and the shop owner is a great guy trying to make a living. I buy stuff there because it's good to support local business. I still buy online for about 50% of my stuff even though I never play at the store.
I owe the FLGS nothing as I don't play there often but I want to support local business because that's what people should do, supporting the average joe shop owner is better than a multinational corporation

Rambling on a bit but I am done..just think about supporting local business because people want to make a living every little bit helps in my opinion.

 Glaiceana wrote:
For me I don't think theres any FLGS near me, only option is a GW, which I only visited recently after getting back into painting 40k. I don't see a problem buying there, even though all I see is complaints about GW. How I see it is that if you have the money to spend, and would like to support a business you like, an FLGS for instance, IF you have that choice of course, buy from them sure.
And yeah I can see the thing about expecting to be able to walk in and play on Stores tables when you have never bought from them, to me that just seems kind of rude. You're using their facilities, so I think you should have bought at least one thing from their store at some point.

Imagine if you owned a small sandwich stall, and you have a couple tables right in front of it, then someone walks along and sits at one of them, eating a subway sandwich. That would be pretty annoying.

Not so much annoying as rude, and not something I would do. At the Starbucks my girlfriend used to work at there was a Chipotle across the street, and so people would come and sit at the outdoor tables and chairs and eat. Some would come in and buy drinks others wouldn't.

 McNinja wrote:

 notprop wrote:
The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.

Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that simply trusting your patrons to buy from you instead of offering some sort of deal other than "hey you like the game, well I sell stuff for your game and am only 10 minutes away from your house" isn't a magical business plan. Starbucks and FLGSs have tables for patron to use. You are't required to buy things to use them at Starbucks. People buy because they think they're getting a great product at their convenience. There's a starbucks on nearly every corner where I live (there are three within a mile of each other), so it really is convenient, and that is the same reason people like my friend buy at brick-and-mortar stores; its quick to drive ten minutes, buy it, then drive back home, than it is to order it.

I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.

So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.

I am not, in any way, trying to say screw anyone over. When I played the game more often, I bought things my closest FLGS. My friends still do, and most don't play there. I do not mean to sound entitled, and for that I apologize.

Maybe it's different in America, but if you went into a Starbucks in the UK with a cup of coffee in your hand already and then sat on their tables to drink said coffee you would probably be asked to leave.

This is basically what you're doing here, you are going into a store that sells a certain product, to use the facilities that are put out for said product, but are then bringing the product from somewhere else.

Now actually my personal experience is that FLGS are actually kinda OK with this, as long as you are occasionally buying some stuff from the store. But your analogy of using the tables at Starbucks without buying a coffee is total wrong, the better example is the aformentioned bringing a coffee from Costa Coffee (do you have that in the US?) into Starbucks because you like their tables better - I'm fairly sure this would not go down well.

I have in the past taken a Costa Hot Chocolate to Starbucks before because I prefer their biscotti.

No one knew how to behave that situation in that weirdly awkward British is he/isn't he taking the piss way.

Never again!

Anyway back to your regular programming......

 notprop wrote:
I have in the past taken a Costa Hot Chocolate to Starbucks before because I prefer their biscotti.

No one knew how to behave that situation in that weirdly awkward British is he/isn't he taking the piss way.

Never again!

Anyway back to your regular programming......

But you bought the Starbucks Biscotti right? Which actually fits nicely into what I said about bringing some stuff from outside into the store. If you're buying something in the store then people tend to be OK with that - but to never buy anything and stlll use the Starbucks/FLGS tables?

Having worked in mobile (cellphone) retail for a substantial part of my working life, this is a constant issue there as well.

People seem to think that because you sell a product, and they own that product, even if that purchase wasn't from you, there is somehow an entitlement that allows them to take your time and experience for free when they have a problem.

My response was simple, I knew an awful lot more when it came to sorting out problems for my own customers than for other people's (funny how that worked out huh?)

Retail is a fine line, you can't disregard someone because they've not bought from you, because that may well preclude them from ever buying from you, neither can you over invest time and resources into a potential customer who is never going to buy. There are no real absolutes when it comes to this, the successful retailer is the one who gets it right most of the time.

I don't think the Starbucks analogy is a good one, too many differences. Starbucks for the most part is pretty simple, but the FLGS thing is more variable.

The FLGS isn't a charity, if they want money for something they need to put a price on it, and that includes table use. I'm not going to try and guess how much playing 1 game on their tables is worth in terms of buying merchandise from them.

How much money do I need to burn at the FLGS before it's no longer rude for me to use the tables?

A couple of paints I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere? A battalion box worth? What if I bought some models 6 months ago and don't need anymore, am I now being rude by still playing on the tables?

That's not a question I should even have to ask, if the FLGS finds customers are using the tables and not buying enough merchandise to make it profitable, they need to take the initiative and change their business model, it's not up to me as the customer to guess how much their table is worth to them.

I think it's because the economic model of FLGS is sort of incoherent now that you can buy things online and hasn't changed to be coherent for a few reasons.

If you're someone who goes to a game store, odds are the thing you get out of it most is the space to play and the community at that store. Yet that's not what you pay for - you pay for the models and such, which are things you can get more conveniently online for less money. I think it's probably bad in general when you're a business providing a primary service but staying afloat on some incidental thing that you can't compete well at.

The FLGS does get benefits out of people playing there, though. If you're in the store, you may spend money there. You may or may not not be spending money today, but you certainly won't be if you're not in there at all. Playing there will probably also increase your engagement with the hobby - for example, lately I haven't been going to a FLGS at all and my miniature spending has dropped to nothing.

There's an additional benefit that gets underrated consistently in these discussions. As free-to-play video games found out, people who play your game but don't pay are still very valuable. They provide opponents and teammates for other people who are paying. As someone who does spend money in FLGS, there's no point me turning up if there's nobody to play with. A healthy community makes me more likely to come and play. Those free players are adding value for the players who are paying.

But, you might say, if the economic model is incoherent, why not change it? I think the answer is that it would be very difficult to charge for tables when other stores are providing them for free; that it would scare away many players, hurting your community and thus reducing the value for the people who would be willing to pay; and that it has some pretty unpleasant mental effects compared to the status quo because "free" is a magical price that doesn't obey the usual laws of mental monetary arithmetic. In the end, it's probably safer to just go with the flow and hope the existing business model can cover it.

Personally, I do spend money at FLGS even though I could save some by buying online, and I do that to support the store, which is providing me a useful service (the space to meet people and tables to play on). The economic model doesn't make sense, and in a way I would rather pay to play there and buy models online, but it is what it is, not what it could be, so I pay my way there.

I never used to buy stuff from my FLGS, and on the few occasions I played there, I'd always give the guy a pound or two towards electricity, or a packet of biscuits if it was Xmas.

Give and take is my approach to these situations, because at the end of the day, the guy has bills to pay, and you don't want to take the mick.

Incentives that save the customer money are paramount in running a business. So why would someone buy expensive products at full price when they can very easily not?

Discounting is not essential or paramount. Discounting does not guarantee loyalty or store success.

Good customer service, friendly/helpful staff.
Clean Store.
Range of product.

These are a minimum I would expect and a real incentive to ensure cash goes into the business.

Having a good clientele will probably seal a purchase as well. if I can meet like minded gamers at a decent location then money is well spent supporting such a locale.

azreal13 wrote:
Retail is a fine line, you can't disregard someone because they've not bought from you, because that may well preclude them from ever buying from you, neither can you over invest time and resources into a potential customer who is never going to buy. There are no real absolutes when it comes to this, the successful retailer is the one who gets it right most of the time.

This is a very valid point, just goes to show how varied this topic can be.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:I don't think the Starbucks analogy is a good one, too many differences. Starbucks for the most part is pretty simple, but the FLGS thing is more variable.

The FLGS isn't a charity, if they want money for something they need to put a price on it, and that includes table use. I'm not going to try and guess how much playing 1 game on their tables is worth in terms of buying merchandise from them.

How much money do I need to burn at the FLGS before it's no longer rude for me to use the tables?

A couple of paints I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere? A battalion box worth? What if I bought some models 6 months ago and don't need anymore, am I now being rude by still playing on the tables?

That's not a question I should even have to ask, if the FLGS finds customers are using the tables and not buying enough merchandise to make it profitable, they need to take the initiative and change their business model, it's not up to me as the customer to guess how much their table is worth to them.

Great point, I agree. Its hard to put worth on a table. I guess most won't in that case, they would just be happy that people are there, and there's got to be quite some worth in people seeing a busy table with games in progress if they happen to be walking past. They would see that and perhaps get the incentive to come in and possibly buy a few products.

 notprop wrote:

So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.

Without wanting to sound callous, if you run a business in a way that isn't economically viable, it's not up to your customers to make up for the deficiencies in your business plan.

Offering tables is a form of marketing. Stores do it in the hope that if people play there, they will buy something while they are there. But that doesn't oblige people who use those tables to buy, any more than watching a TV commercial obliges you to buy that product.

If a store fines that people are playing and not buying, and that is affecting their bottom line, then it's up to them to figure out how to make their business more viable. It's not the customers' job to make a business work.

You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'. A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.

Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.

I highly recommend people try to start a 'club' and see how much it costs to basically 'replicate the services of FLGS open play' with public gaming space for long periods of time, maintaining tables and organizing players and then complain when you spend lots of money and effort and people scoff in your face at 'club dues'. Makes that MSRP on models worth it to the alternative of club organization.

nkelsch wrote:
You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'.

That depends on how you look at it. Alternatively you could view the gaming space as a form of advertising that encourages you to come in and buy stuff.

A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.

There's no "should be free" involved here. If store A has free gaming and store B doesn't then store B is providing an inferior product and I'm going to take my money to store A. The only outrage is over store B providing an inferior product and failing to compete with store A, which can be annoying if I have to drive farther to get to store A.

Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.

This is a rather shortsighted view of things that ignores the overlap between communities. Tabletop players also play MTG, and if you drive the "unprofitable" tabletop players away then they're likely to take their MTG money over to your competition as well. You can't just focus on the immediate profit provided by a customer at a given moment and neglect the fact that the more time a potential customer spends in your store the more likely it is that they buy something from you.

Also, I don't know where you live but comic book stores still exist. The game store I play at most frequently also has a substantial comic book business, and it seems to be doing pretty well. And there are also actual comic shops in the area.

 insaniak wrote:

 notprop wrote:

So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.

Without wanting to sound callous, if you run a business in a way that isn't economically viable, it's not up to your customers to make up for the deficiencies in your business plan.

Offering tables is a form of marketing. Stores do it in the hope that if people play there, they will buy something while they are there. But that doesn't oblige people who use those tables to buy, any more than watching a TV commercial obliges you to buy that product.

If a store fines that people are playing and not buying, and that is affecting their bottom line, then it's up to them to figure out how to make their business more viable. It's not the customers' job to make a business work.

If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing. I'm sure they are the same knobends who will complain that FLGs X isnt around anymore to get paint/glie while not seeing the link to simultaneously expecting big discounts and only shopping online.

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'.

That depends on how you look at it. Alternatively you could view the gaming space as a form of advertising that encourages you to come in and buy stuff.

and sometimes some types of advertising are ineffective and don't provide return on investment. Even if you run gaming space as a loss leader, it has to justify its existence to be effective. The issue is the people who are not 'pay where you play' are basically uncapturable sales as literally nothing you can do in regards to gaming space as 'advertising' and taking a loss can make them shop there. People with the internet mindset want 'internet matching - tax' as a 'starting point' simply due to behavior of being able to go to amazon and get free shipping. A store would have to sell at internet discounts, provide free gaming space and maintain stock to 'browse' for these people to even see them as comparable to their online experience. That is a business model called suicide.

A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.

There's no "should be free" involved here. If store A has free gaming and store B doesn't then store B is providing an inferior product and I'm going to take my money to store A. The only outrage is over store B providing an inferior product and failing to compete with store A, which can be annoying if I have to drive farther to get to store A.

Assuming the two stores have the same price, and assuming you have already decided that neither A or B can get your business for being more than online discounter C. Then all you are deciding is 'which has better, cheaper open gaming for you to mooch. Basically Which steakhouse are you going to take your bag lunch to and order a 'water'.

Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.

This is a rather shortsighted view of things that ignores the overlap between communities. Tabletop players also play MTG, and if you drive the "unprofitable" tabletop players away then they're likely to take their MTG money over to your competition as well. You can't just focus on the immediate profit provided by a customer at a given moment and neglect the fact that the more time a potential customer spends in your store the more likely it is that they buy something from you.

You assume that being driven away means to another FLGS. The issue is people who say 'the more time a potential customer spends in your store' are the very people which add to that, 'Except me, I won't spend money, but please, continue to provide me free gaming space because 'someone else' may buy there. That is the issue, is often the MTG people shopping locally are doing so because they don't get nearly the discounts they do from 'online' and they are getting services you can't get online in the form of 'booster drafts' where they have much better chances of getting the rarepicks they need opposed to paying collector internet scalper fee as well as using product purchase as entry into organized play. The game sells itself simply by opening empty tables. In comparison, way more work has to be done for tabletop gaming and a lot more effort and materials for way less pay off.

Also, I don't know where you live but comic book stores still exist. The game store I play at most frequently also has a substantial comic book business, and it seems to be doing pretty well. And there are also actual comic shops in the area.

Yes, and the comic book BUST is a well documented fact. There are maybe 1/20th the number of stores still in existence than 10 years ago and many have had to turn into hybrid businesses and severely downsize to make it profitable. Lots and lots of them failed and folded and even the comic industry is going electronic because collectable physical comics simply are not work crap and those who wish to read and enjoy can get digital subscriptions which make physical copies obsolete as well as allowing people to gain full access to entire backlogs of series for the digital subscription.

Basically boils down to if you value having somewhere to game and a system in place to organize opponents in a default location or not. Sure you can buy food and take it home and cook it yourself for less than eating out, but sometimes you want the convenience and effort of eating out, and you pay extra for that service in the form of mark up on product. Tables in a restaurant are not 'free advertisement for their food'. If you basically go to the store and never by, expect them to ask you to leave or potentially drop the open gaming all together for a more profitable venture.

 notprop wrote:
If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing.

First of all, if the "freeloader" isn't buying then it's your failure as a business. Why haven't you been able to offer anything at all in your entire store that they want to buy? Why haven't you done a better job of selling your products and made them so excited about a new purchase that they bought it immediately instead of waiting a week for shipping? It seems like the typical "freeloaders" position expects the store owner to be able to put out some gaming tables and a wall of 40k boxes (at full retail price, of course) and everyone is TFG if they don't make a charity donation to the store by buying them.

Second, even people who don't buy contribute to a business. Player A might never buy anything, but they contribute to the store always having lots of people on miniatures night so players B and C, who do buy stuff, come to your store instead of your competition. You take the loss on providing free space to A because you know it leads to better profit elsewhere.

nkelsch wrote:
The issue is the people who are not 'pay where you play' are basically uncapturable sales as literally nothing you can do in regards to gaming space as 'advertising' and taking a loss can make them shop there.

So why should we just accept that view instead of blaming the store for failing as a business? Do we need to give charity donations to a for-profit business because the owner can't figure out how to, say, get the internet-buyer to impulse buy some MTG packs, or get them so excited about a new unit for their army that they buy it immediately so they can go home and get straight to work on it without waiting for shipping? It sounds like you want to replace basic retail skills like "convincing people to buy something" with social pressure to give charity donations to business owners who don't have the ability to run a successful business.

You assume that being driven away means to another FLGS.

Well yes, unless you're unfortunate enough to live in an area where there is only one game store within reasonable travel distance, the most likely result of people being driven out of one store means they're going to that store's competition (which will probably be quite happy to get them).

The issue is people who say 'the more time a potential customer spends in your store' are the very people which add to that, 'Except me, I won't spend money, but please, continue to provide me free gaming space because 'someone else' may buy there.

You know, I seem to remember the last thread on this subject involving a successful game store owner being the strongest supporter of that position.

That is the issue, is often the MTG people shopping locally are doing so because they don't get nearly the discounts they do from 'online' and they are getting services you can't get online in the form of 'booster drafts' where they have much better chances of getting the rarepicks they need opposed to paying collector internet scalper fee as well as using product purchase as entry into organized play. The game sells itself simply by opening empty tables. In comparison, way more work has to be done for tabletop gaming and a lot more effort and materials for way less pay off.

Sure, but whatever that reason may be do you really want to drive the "unprofitable" miniatures players over to a competing store and have them take their MTG money with them? If store A has only MTG and store B has MTG and miniatures then it's a pretty good assumption that store B is going to have the bigger and more profitable MTG community. Even if you aren't making much money off the miniatures business you still run it because it gets MTG players into your store.

Yes, and the comic book BUST is a well documented fact.

But the important question here is WHY did those stores fail. Did they fail because of "leeches" who came in and read comics without ever buying, or did they fail because comic books in general became less popular and the industry could no longer support that many stores? You can't just say "look at what happened to the comic stores" without considering whether the reasons are similar enough to make the comparison relevant.

If you basically go to the store and never by, expect them to ask you to leave or potentially drop the open gaming all together for a more profitable venture.

Sure, ask the players to leave. This isn't some moral right to free gaming here. Just be prepared to watch your whole community go over to a competing store, including the paying customers who follow their "leeching" friends.

 notprop wrote:

If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing.

Call them what you like, it doesn't change the fact that retail is a one-way street. The business offers a service, the customer either makes use of that service, or doesn't. If the business chooses not to charge for a given service, that doesn't put the person making use of that service under an obligation to buy something else.

Again, marketing is supposed to encourage you to spend money. It doesn't make it a requirement.

If stores don't want 'freeloaders' using their tables, they can require a purchase, our implement a hire charge for the table, or concentrate on running organised, entry-fee events. Offering free table space is a choice they make... And it is up to them, not the customer, to make that work within their chosen business model.