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Saldiven wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.

There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.

My house is too small for wargaming so

This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.

The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.

Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.

There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.

My house is too small for wargaming so

This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.

The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.

Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.

That might be the case in the UK, but is hardly likely in the USA, at least not for a significantly longer time. As I've pointed out, the model for finding gaming opportunities in the USA is very different from the UK. In the UK, there are very few independent gaming stores, GW stores are everywhere, and gaming clubs that spend their own money to rent out spaces to play periodically are somewhat common. In the USA, FLGS are very common, GW stores are very uncommon, and independent gaming groups that spend their own money to rent gaming space are almost unheard of (most such clubs meet in a member's home rather than spending money to rent a space).

In the USA, gaming clubs use the FLGS as a place to both find new people to play and as a location to hold their games. Rentable public places to play games for a reasonable amount of money are relatively uncommon here, and the spaces that are affordable are often restrictive in their usages (church spaces), restricted in who can use them (YMCA, Boys & Girls Club, etc.) or seriously lacking in any sort of amenity (public community centers). Typically, the only groups that have easy access to affordable gaming space are university students who attend a school that has space for student organizations to meet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm all for supporting a local store, but this hobby continues to get more and more expensive, so if it boils down to spending $80 versus $64 for the same thing, when you add up a few of those discounts you end up being able to buy an additional thing.

Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.

There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.

My house is too small for wargaming so

This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.

The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.

Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.

There's a peculiar dichotomy in your point there, people want things right this minute, yet you feel that stores that don't require several days (at best) to deliver the goods are on their way out?

The hobby is anything but declining if the best information we have to go in is to be believed, but the high street is getting less and less tolerant of poor businesses, regardless of their market. I'd contend we are perhaps in a period of transition, rather than decline, but I wouldn't want to be drawn on how the landscape will look in a few years just at this moment.

Saldiven wrote:
Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?

So your argument is that you should pay more simply because the FLGS has tables? While I don't disagree, given the price a discount tends to be the most important thing when it comes to buying items, because of the cost alone. That's not to say I don't buy anything from the FLGS; I'm as likely to go there just to shoot the breeze and chat, and something catches my eye and I buy it because it's right there. For controlled or bulk purchases though I'm more likely to buy from eBay or an online retailer with a good discount, because of the already high price that I'm paying. For instance if I'm putting in a $200 order I'd rather save $40 and put that towards an additional model (possibly bought at the FLGS) than spend $200 just so I can give the FLGS my business out of some perceived guilt over playing there with models bought elsewhere.

Ahhh, the good old. "FLGS needs to give me a 50% discount on everything or they should be shut down" thread. What a freeloading entitled nation we've become.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?

So your argument is that you should pay more simply because the FLGS has tables? While I don't disagree, given the price a discount tends to be the most important thing when it comes to buying items, because of the cost alone. That's not to say I don't buy anything from the FLGS; I'm as likely to go there just to shoot the breeze and chat, and something catches my eye and I buy it because it's right there. For controlled or bulk purchases though I'm more likely to buy from eBay or an online retailer with a good discount, because of the already high price that I'm paying. For instance if I'm putting in a $200 order I'd rather save $40 and put that towards an additional model (possibly bought at the FLGS) than spend $200 just so I can give the FLGS my business out of some perceived guilt over playing there with models bought elsewhere.

This is what's wrong with the world today.

Would you rather a store give you the same discount and NOT offer you a place to play? Is that it?


It's actually insulting for you to post "Oh I'll buy everything online, and the money I save, I "might" throw towards the store."

Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.

I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.

I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.

Yet you don't complain about the price of gas, bread, movie tickets or anything else doubling.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who said anything about it being unfaithful. It's a truth that you will buy elsewhere, that's going to happen, but people need to be aware that if they want a place to game, then yes, they have to support it. And don't try to console yourself with "oh I'll buy a pot of paint once in a while, that'll help."

Again, if you DON'T play there, only play there once in a blue moon, then whatever, but if it's your MAIN playspace, then for gods sake, support it.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.

I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.

So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there? What if everyone in your local area thinks like you do? Being a parasite is nice when the host is healthy. When there are too many parasites, the host dies or purges the parasites. Both result in you having no place to game. It isn't that you HAVE to support the FLGS... if you don't play there, then internet discount your ass off. But if you play there, the 20% you pay compared to internet discounters is basically a form of 'tipping' for providing you a place to be and good service.

"If you can't afford to tip 20% when you go out to eat, you can't afford to eat out. Stay home and cook in the kitchen."
"If you can't afford MSRP and forgoing the 20% online discounters price, you can't afford to play in public FLGS, Stay home and play in your basement."

Hence why FLGS are moving forward to killing 'open play' for wargamers and replacing everything with MTG and having 'open play' only on a weeknight or when they have organized events with entry fees to guarantee recoup of costs. the MTG customer base appreciates the place to play and has no problem dropping dime for entry fees or gaming space. Makes pay to play super easy and they accept it.

If your store shuts down and you have nowhere to game, then don't complain about it if you didn't 'pay where you play'.

I suppose that is a valid point.

WayneTheGame wrote:
...... ...............I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.

You are easily insulted.

I think you misunderstand it's not that you are obligated but you may find that you do not have a FLGs if you buy online. It may be that you prefer deep discount over convenience and utility (most don't ergo the existence of convenience stores when it is cheaper at a supermarket) but many do not and are happy to buy at a premium to have such a place on hand.

Also and I think this is most important FLGs/GW/whatever generally are the hub of the gaming community and effectively create new players and draw in the fresh blood that small groups need to continue.

Half price mini's are great but not so useful with fewer/no people to play against. So in this respect you are also helping yourself but supporting a games store especially in the US where you are more FLGs-centric.

Buy where it's cheapest (probably online)

or

Buy where you get the best service (you'd hope this was a FLGS, but unfortunately I think it might still be online in a good 50% of cases)

or

Buy where you can get the product you want...major ranges are easy, but for niche products you may find online or a special, delayed, order are your only option

a really tricky one here where it comes to limited edition stuff, do you trust your FLGS to get you that LE codex or mini if their distributor lets them down. Will they go to the secondary market for you even if they end up loosing money?

or

Buy where you play (if you play in store) as if you don't you make it much more likely you'll need to find a new place to hang out

or

By from a local business rather than a faceless big corporation (personally I'd choose based on service rather than business size)


the choice, as they say, is yours

It's pretty simple really, and someone may have already made this point, but if you like your FLGS and want it to stay in business, you should support it, which could include making purchases at the shop.

Its the same with any business or service. If you like it and want it to stick around, support it. I buy models I don't need from RBG because I want Red Box Games to be successful. I buy stuff from my FLGS because I would rather have one in the area than not. So I make an effort to spend money there.

If there's something of value to you, even if that value does not itself come with a price attached, e.g. free gaming space, and you want to retain that value, you need to be proactive about it. I enjoy the park in my town. I want it to be nice. I want to see it expanded. So I am a dues-paying member of the organization that helps to maintain the park. I think Planned Parenthood is great, so I make donations. I wanted Obama to be re-elected, so I voted for him, but I didn't volunteer or donate to his campaign. I pay taxes to support the park, so I could be satisfied with that, but I don't think the tax base is enough for what I want the park to be. I give a modest amount to PP because although I don't avail myself of their services, I want the organization to continue its existence so I make a modest yearly donation. I figure the organization has fairly sufficient funding, but I care about it enough to give some money. I calculated that Obama had himself more money than he knew what to do with, so I figured my vote would be enough, and I live in an area so damn conservative that I did not feel the benefits of volunteering outweighed the potential personal costs.

Ultimately it is all a cost/benefit analysis, but one must be mindful of the tragedy of the commons and/or the bystander effect. If you value something, but don't do anything to help maintain it, or worse, rabidly deplete its resources without doing anything to help maintain it, you can't really expect it to stick around.

It behooves people to step back and think about how the loss of a FLGS would affect them. Imagine the local shop wasn't there. Would you lose anything of value? If so, what sort of value do you place on it?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The guilt tripping that goes on about "supporting your local store" is kinda silly. I don't have any fething local stores. Why the hell shouldn't I seek out the best price available to me?

Well, if you weren't constantly dodging killer drop bears attacking from the trees maybe you would.
Part of the issue is the locational differences. In the US gathering at FLGS's is a standard thing due to culture and travel distances between players. Other countries seem to differ on that.

Personally I don't see how how FLGS stay in business, but thats just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.

I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.

Where do you find opponents without an FLGS?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As for snacks and drinks, it's hard to compete with supermarkets.

You don't have to compete with supermarkets. The people already in the store are a captive audience. Most gamers aren't going to walk to another store to buy a drink when they can just get one at the counter.

nkelsch wrote:
So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there?

Because they choose to do so?

If the store doesn't want non-customers using their tables, they can do what just about every cafe or restaurant on the planet does, and ask them to leave. If they instead choose to allow anyone who walks in to use their tables, then people are not doing anything wrong by using those tables.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
If you think it's a free item that doesn't value you to spend money to keep...then you shouldn't need to use it. And if you still use it and spend nothing, you're a d-bag...sorry...you just are.

So if I ask a staff-member where to find something, and then don't spend any money, am I similarly in the wrong?

How about if I read a promotional flyer that the store shoved in my letter box telling me about their new releases?

Or if the store gives away, say, a free space marine to everyone who walks in the door?

The major difference in opinion here is entitlement versus earned reward. Some people think things should be handed to them and will take anything they can. Other have a sense of self-respect, respect for others, and honor....and don't act in such a way.

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'entitlement'. It's to do with people for some inexplicable reason thinking that the store choosing to use a particular marketing tool (offering space to play, for no charge or stated purchase requirement) somehow obligates a player to make a purchase.

It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where do you find opponents without an FLGS?

Would this be a good time to mention Dakka's handy Player Finder?

 insaniak wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where do you find opponents without an FLGS?

Would this be a good time to mention Dakka's handy Player Finder?

Yes the one that say the closest player to me is a 2 and half hour drive away, not the best sorce for finding game in the States.

Noir wrote:
Yes the one that say the closest player to me is a 2 and half hour drive away, not the best sorce for finding game in the States.

It's only been active since breakfast, with over a thousand players registered already. Give it time... the more people get behind it, the more useful a resource it will be.

Does it seem a pattern that the people who seem to not think 'pay where they play' should be a thing are all from Australia?

If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right? Compare that to the US culture where tipping is not just common but often mandatory and without it, employees sometimes don't get paid at all and have negative wages. If you don't tip in most states (outisde California which has different laws) you are almost universally seen as a bad person. In some states, restaurants can impose service charges which you can be arrested for not paying. (basically stealing service)

Combine that with our FLGS-centric gaming communities, I am not sure you guys will fully understand how things are in the US and the UK which are both very different from each other and very different from Australia.

It does seem like all the people who are saying 'pay where you play' are from the US and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS. May just be different cultures and circumstances.

I think this is not an issue in many US stores as usually the open gaming is facilitated by a CLUB which co-exists with a store and usually the club self-manages itself. Some times you need to be affiliated with the club to even play there (which is how the store gets around the child supervision issue as the store is not taking custody of your minors). You will be socially ostracized for being a free-loader by the club members long before the store has to 'take action' because the club knows the only way they get to use the space is by being a profitable draw to the store. When the store gets overrun by parasites, open gaming ends or the store closes.

To be far tipping is common to most cultures (Aus included), it is more prevalent in the US because it seems to be acceptable for employers to pay grossly unfair and low wages on the basis that the customer is topping up their take home pay

nkelsch wrote:
If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right?

Yes and no. We have higher minimum wages in hospitality so that tipping isn't as essential for ensuring that staff actually earn enough to live on, but most service jobs still have tipping as an option. It's more common here though for restaurants and cafes to just have a 'tips' jar at the front counter for anyone who was impressed enough with the service to leave something extra (no real set amount there), and whatever goes in there is just divied up amongst the staff evenly.

...and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS.

It's not even just 'bad' FLGS... Most stores that sell wargaming stuff here don't actually have gaming space, or have very limited space. We're much like the UK in that regard... most gaming is done either at home, at gaming clubs, or at tournaments which are usually held in hired halls.

To most Oz gamers, the FLGS is just a shop. Because that's what it is.

 McNinja wrote:

 troa wrote:


The same goes with FLGS's. Their main purpose is to sell a product. Tables, chairs, all a luxury, but also a huge boon to their business because people can chill out and meet new people. It is most definitely an atmosphere thing, and I'm not about to deny that. All I am saying is that simply using the tables as your only method of selling products is a bad idea. It shouldn't be your sole method of gaining new customers.

But play space is pretty much the only thing they can offer over an online discounter. its not like you're going to mail order a cup of coffee. That environment is often the reason people are willing to pay more than what they could get it elsewhere.

It should be noted that two of the bigger online discounters, Miniature Market and the Warstore are also actual brick and mortar stores as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it.

Is there any real evidence of that aside from anecdotal? Most of the KS'd products wouldn't have ended up in a gaming store anyways. The small potato stuff isn't likely to get picked up by a brick and mortar store since its not likely to be get distribution. How many minis outside of GW, Privateer Press, Wyrd and Reaper are really on your store's shelf? Not many on mine.

The few that would have (Bones for example) rapidly expanded the product lineup, allowing more and faster sales of different sku's of the biggest selling line by far. Dreadball and Deadzone already sold out, so there's clearly still demand outside the Kickstarter. Kingdom Death was never going retail anyways. So maybe they lost on Zombicide, but given that I've seen mini market run out of expansions for that, I'm betting there's still money to be made there as well.

At most you could argue that it takes shuffles around the gaming budget, but then so does getting married and having kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.

What if you sat around for hours, pulling shoes out all of the place and hogging the attention of the staff? Yeah, at that point, you're kind of a leech if you don't buy anything. That's one of the real differences. If you're playing a game, you're likely taking up a significant amount of the store's likely limited resources for a significant amount of time.

nkelsch wrote:
So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there?

Because they want to get as many people in the store as possible, which maximizes the chances of someone in the group buying something. This doesn't mean the "leech" is entitled to gaming space, of course, but it's in the store's best interest to provide it.

What if everyone in your local area thinks like you do?

Then you have to ask why the store owner has failed so miserably in convincing anyone to buy stuff.

"If you can't afford to tip 20% when you go out to eat, you can't afford to eat out. Stay home and cook in the kitchen."
"If you can't afford MSRP and forgoing the 20% online discounters price, you can't afford to play in public FLGS, Stay home and play in your basement."

Except that's not a very good comparison. Tipping is effectively mandatory because of abusive minimum wage laws that allow restaurants to pay pretty much nothing in wages on the assumption that their employees will make up the difference in tips. It's an obligation to the employee, not to the business. There is no equivalent to that in retail. The employees are guaranteed to receive minimum wage (unless they're also the owner and willingly take a pay cut), so the obligation you want to enforce is to the business.

Hence why FLGS are moving forward to killing 'open play' for wargamers and replacing everything with MTG and having 'open play' only on a weeknight or when they have organized events with entry fees to guarantee recoup of costs. the MTG customer base appreciates the place to play and has no problem dropping dime for entry fees or gaming space. Makes pay to play super easy and they accept it.

I seriously doubt that the MTG community has a different attitude. The real difference between MTG and miniatures is that stores have figured out ways to get MTG players to buy stuff purely because they want that stuff:

* Easy impulse buys from the box of packs at the register.
* Easy impulse buys from the shelf of tokens/dice/playmats/etc.
* Weekly (or more) tournaments offering prizes in store credit, which effectively means "spend $5 a week to play here".
* Sealed/draft tournaments that effectively add "buy $15 worth of cards to play" to the store credit entry fee/prize.
* Single cards with no shipping delays for players that want to buy something and use it immediately.
* Prize support from WOTC that gets people to enter those tournaments.

The end result is that the store offers a superior product that the MTG community can't buy online. Sure, lots of them do buy stuff online (especially boxes and expensive singles), but even the most selfish "leech" in the MTG community wants to buy what the store is offering. Contrast this with miniatures, where the general opinion seems to be that all the store owner needs to do is put some boxes on the shelf and offer some 6x4 tables with adequate terrain (often donated by the community), and the community is obligated to make charity donations to the store in exchange.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
But play space is pretty much the only thing they can offer over an online discounter. its not like you're going to mail order a cup of coffee. That environment is often the reason people are willing to pay more than what they could get it elsewhere.

And this is why stores have a hard time getting sales from the miniatures community: because they don't bother to think of ideas for generating sales and just act like putting up a shelf of 40k boxes entitles them to charity donations from every player in the area. Here's some potential ideas to start with:

* No shipping delays: get that shiny new toy as soon as you decide you want it.
* More frequent tournaments with entry fees.
* Bonus events with purchases (escalation leagues, "buy a character and we'll help you paint it" classes, etc).
* Reward cards (and yes, even if the discount isn't the same as online there's still a psychological factor with earning points).
* Painting services: partner with a local commission painter and offer paint-to-order models (which just happen to be bought at full retail price from the store).
* Gift buying advice: friends and family are probably going to go to the store their spouse/kid/whatever plays at and ask what to buy.

Is that more work? Sure, but welcome to retail. Success requires work and learning how to sell your products, not just putting up a store and playing video games while the profit comes in.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
What if you sat around for hours, pulling shoes out all of the place and hogging the attention of the staff? Yeah, at that point, you're kind of a leech if you don't buy anything. That's one of the real differences. If you're playing a game, you're likely taking up a significant amount of the store's likely limited resources for a significant amount of time.

Then in both of those cases, the staff are witihin their rights to just ask you to leave.

If they choose to allow you to remain in the store lounging about and patting the shoes, or playing on their tables, then you're not doing something wrong by doing so.

I know that the distances that people travel for their hobby vary widely across the world, but here in the UK we're quite a small island and you're never stupidly far from a miniatures retailer, whether it's an independent seller or one of the infamous Games Workshop stores. If you have one or both in your town or city, so much the better.
But retail in general is a tough business and that's why I think it's important, for you and your community, to shop locally if you can.

Just like anyone else, I can buy online from any number of Internet retailers and maybe save a few quid compared to buying in person.

But if there was a local retailer, GW or indie, who I liked (and I'll stress this point - LIKED) I'd much rather spend my money with him (or her) to help keep them in business.
Because, as well as keeping a business going, it puts money into the local community via their business taxes, so the street outside gets swept and cleaned, the street lights work and the potholes are fixed; it puts money into the local sandwich shops (from the store staff and the guys who go there for snacks between games); it keeps the local pub happy 'cos some of their customers are waiting for little Johnny to spend his pocket money in 'that model soldier shop', and it gives your Auntie Mary somewhere to go to buy an exciting birthday present for you, instead of boring ol' socks. Everyone wins.

Of course it cuts both ways. If the miniatures retailer is a Grade-A jerk, vote with your feet. Don't give him your money. But if they're a nice guy, why not support him a little?
I'm not saying you must pledge to give them 50% of your earnings for the next ten years, but things aren't that tight that you absolutely have to save another 2% by shopping online. If money really is that scarce, you shouldn't be buying miniatures in the first place

 notprop wrote:
To be far tipping is common to most cultures (Aus included), it is more prevalent in the US because it seems to be acceptable for employers to pay grossly unfair and low wages on the basis that the customer is topping up their take home pay

Precisely. This is a substantial problem in the US. But that's sort of off topic. On topic, I haven't noticed this trend, except to say that folks in the US tend to value the FLGS more highly because they are more important given the comparatively lower population densities found throughout most of the US. The FLGS can often serve as a regional or semi-regional hub of a hobby community spread over a wide area. And to go off of what Peregrine said, the FLGS does well when it supports the community, in my experience. I'm not terribly wedded to the closest FLGS in my area because it doesn't really do much to spark my interest aside from having tables and some poorly-organized terrain. The shop doesn't do much to encourage me to want to A) go to the store or B) stay there very long. But as I said earlier, I'd rather have the shop than not have it, so I make an effort to spend some money there. If the shop offered more value, I'd almost certainly spend more.

It might be tougher to organize in home or club events when most people would have to drive 30 min to 2 hours to get to the location, but a FLGS with decent hours in the are provides a place for people to come and go at irregular times. Even in big cities there may only be 2 or 3 game stores; often pretty far from one another. I travel a great deal and I can definitely say that in lots of metropolitan areas, getting to a FLGS is not terribly easy or convenient. In Boston, for example, you've got to go to Cambridge to get to a game store. If you were in downtown New Orleans, you'd have to go all the way to Metairie. If you live in the city and have a car, that's not bad at all from an American perspective, but a lot of people are probably driving 30+ minutes to get to the shop.

nkelsch wrote:
Does it seem a pattern that the people who seem to not think 'pay where they play' should be a thing are all from Australia?

If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right? Compare that to the US culture where tipping is not just common but often mandatory and without it, employees sometimes don't get paid at all and have negative wages. If you don't tip in most states (outisde California which has different laws) you are almost universally seen as a bad person. In some states, restaurants can impose service charges which you can be arrested for not paying. (basically stealing service)

Combine that with our FLGS-centric gaming communities, I am not sure you guys will fully understand how things are in the US and the UK which are both very different from each other and very different from Australia.

I don't think the tipping thing really shows anything much that could be applied to what we're talking about here. Tipping in the USA is a way to pay servers. In Australia, servers actually get paid properly by the business, so you only tip for exceptional service. I have lived a decent amount of time in both countries, when my Australian friend came over to the US he was happy to tip when he got good service but didn't really understand why he was still tipping for average or even bad service.

Even talking to my American friends, a lot of them would prefer a system where you know the server is being properly paid and so tipping is actually for good service and not just an obligation.

It does seem like all the people who are saying 'pay where you play' are from the US and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS. May just be different cultures and circumstances.

I think it's purely coincidental. This forum is hardly a cross section of cultures. The fact that many of the people who are anti-pay where you play are Australian more shows that Dakka simply has a strong Australian presence.

I think this is not an issue in many US stores as usually the open gaming is facilitated by a CLUB which co-exists with a store and usually the club self-manages itself. Some times you need to be affiliated with the club to even play there (which is how the store gets around the child supervision issue as the store is not taking custody of your minors). You will be socially ostracized for being a free-loader by the club members long before the store has to 'take action' because the club knows the only way they get to use the space is by being a profitable draw to the store. When the store gets overrun by parasites, open gaming ends or the store closes.

The only couple of stores near me (in Australia) that had gaming tables (aside from GW itself) made money off the tables by holding events there and such, and the local clubs paid to use tables in the evenings. The store for the most part didn't mind if you used the tables during the day. One store that closed unfortunately (I believe due to a large and unexpected rent increase) actually had prices that weren't far off online prices, would do deals that encouraged you to spend more and had food to buy as well.

That's why I tend to feel if you have tables in your store, you can't be overly unhappy with people are using them and not buying stuff because the point of the tables is to bring people in, if you can't then exploit that to make money, I don't see how that's the customer's fault.

IMO it's not like a restaurant where you walk in, buy your food, and sit at a table to eat it and if you're sitting at the table and not eating, you're a "parasite". It's a very different business model, as it's not like I'm going to buy a bunch of models and then immediately sit down and start playing a game with them and then leave when I'm "finished" and come back next time to buy another set of models and play another game with them.

 Peregrine wrote:
And this is why stores have a hard time getting sales from the miniatures community: because they don't bother to think of ideas for generating sales and just act like putting up a shelf of 40k boxes entitles them to charity donations from every player in the area. Here's some potential ideas to start with:

* No shipping delays: get that shiny new toy as soon as you decide you want it.
* More frequent tournaments with entry fees.
* Bonus events with purchases (escalation leagues, "buy a character and we'll help you paint it" classes, etc).
* Reward cards (and yes, even if the discount isn't the same as online there's still a psychological factor with earning points).
* Painting services: partner with a local commission painter and offer paint-to-order models (which just happen to be bought at full retail price from the store).
* Gift buying advice: friends and family are probably going to go to the store their spouse/kid/whatever plays at and ask what to buy.

Is that more work? Sure, but welcome to retail. Success requires work and learning how to sell your products, not just putting up a store and playing video games while the profit comes in.

Pretty much this. You aren't entitled to things just for making tables available on the off chance that somebody comes in; most FLGS seem to have a ton of weekly events for MTG but wargames tend to be if you're lucky one night that's "miniatures night" when you can reasonably find a game, and every other day is pretty much if you're lucky maybe somebody else had the same idea you did to head on down to the store and you can get a game in. There isn't any incentive beyond having a place with tables/terrain to even use the FLGS (assuming one prefers to order online). It'd be another story entirely if there were frequent leagues (perhaps even different campaigns on different days), nights dedicated to painting workshops or terrain workshops or whatnot, but as it stands most shops on the wargames side have a couple of racks with products, a Citadel paint rack, and 2+ tables with some terrain and that's it; everything else is dedicated to MTG and similar games.

My local shop is that like, despite recently upgrading to a store like quadruple their old size (and now being the largest game store in the area) - MTG events almost every day, several times a week. 40k/Fantasy gets one night dedicated to it (and there's still MTG on that night, so while they have the most of the store we get a corner with a few tables) and everything else has to be set up with other players or hope that you get lucky and someone else heads down there to see who's around; that's not really a feasible thing when you have to drive down there. Few if any leagues/campaigns going on, maybe once in a blue moon. The occasional RTT tournament (as opposed to MTG having some kind of tournament thing every week). A small corner of the store with Warhammer things.

 insaniak wrote:

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 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
If you think it's a free item that doesn't value you to spend money to keep...then you shouldn't need to use it. And if you still use it and spend nothing, you're a d-bag...sorry...you just are.

So if I ask a staff-member where to find something, and then don't spend any money, am I similarly in the wrong?

How about if I read a promotional flyer that the store shoved in my letter box telling me about their new releases?

Or if the store gives away, say, a free space marine to everyone who walks in the door?

The major difference in opinion here is entitlement versus earned reward. Some people think things should be handed to them and will take anything they can. Other have a sense of self-respect, respect for others, and honor....and don't act in such a way.

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'entitlement'. It's to do with people for some inexplicable reason thinking that the store choosing to use a particular marketing tool (offering space to play, for no charge or stated purchase requirement) somehow obligates a player to make a purchase.

It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Full of poor assumptions and strawman arguements. You have clearly never worked retail or taken business classes...

Clearly not...

Actually, I worked in retail for more than 10 years, including some time in a games store. What I know from that time is that this two-way relationship that people seem to assume should exist by and large just doesn't. There is no 'morality' issue here. A store is a business. They exist to make money, and one of the ways that they do that is by encouraging customers to spend time on their premises.

There is never an obligation in the other direction. A person in your store is never obligated to spend money there. They can choose to do so, or not. If a customer is particularly fond of a particular store, and so chooses to spend money there regardless of there being cheaper places to buy from, then that's entirely their choice. I've done so myself in the past with stores that had particularly good service. But that's a choice, not a moral obligation. Propping up that store when they've made business choices that cost them more than they expected them to isn't my job. Making the chosen business model profitable is the job of the business owner, not the customer.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
FLGs in the US fit a role that, along with being a retail store, are meant to have functions to further support those that purchase from them not simply as a marketing tool but as support for the hobby.

No they don't. Stores, at least if they're run as a proper business instead of a way to subsidize the owner's gaming hobbies, don't exist to support the hobby, they exist to sell stuff. Support for the hobby only exists because store owners know that gaming is a social activity and if people don't have a place to play their game they're not going to buy those games. Providing some 6x4 tables and cheap terrain is just the bare minimum required to sell miniatures at all, not a service done purely out of love for the community.

And nothing you said changes the morality of the decision to not support the store.

You're right, because this isn't a moral question. If the store can't sell things then it's their fault for failing to find a way to get customers to buy stuff. We, the customers, aren't obligated to give them charity donations to make up for their failed business.