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Just finished my Ravenwing army and I am having a few problems with it. In the last three games I have played since finishing the army I have been destroyed. I will give the list and then explain my problems:

HQ:
Azreal (sammael is in the mail)
Librarian (converting one on a bike now)
Ravenwing Command squad
-apoth
-Champ
-Banner of Dev
Troops:
-x1 RW vet sergeant
-x5 bikes (x2 plasma)
-x1 attack bike (multi melta)
-x1 land speeder (multi melta / typhoon missile launcher)

-another squad exactly the same

another squad exactly the same minus the attack bike (that's coming in the mail soon)

Fast attack
-Dark shroud

Heavy support
-Dev squad (missile launchers with flakk)

This is an 1850 list. I stuck Azreal and the librarian with the dev squad to make them very survivable and have twin linked. In the last three games I got first turn and scouted, moved up another 12, and began the dakka; however, by the end of turn 2 I lost more than half my bikes. I combat squad my 3 groups of bikes so I had 6 troops. I would keep the two special weps in their own groups and keep all the bolt guns around the dakka banner. I did not keep anything in reserve. I keep the dark shroud around the command squad and bolt bikes for the stealth.

I thought that having 6 squads of three bikes was better than having 3 squads of 6, but they almost never lasted. Does this list suck? what do you think I am doing wrong? What would you change? Any suggestions would help. If you need/ want anymore info let me know cause I need help. thanks a lot.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also curious what strategies you all use with your ravenwing armies. Thanks a lot.

RW is bad , because they are high cost bikers that have to use cover to work , but this is an edition where good armies ignore cover . Your using a high cost HQ to babysit one unit of devastators and your spending even more points on useless upgrades like flakk for the devs.

The list would work much better , if you started runing it under WS rules. Graviton guns are realy good, you get the same scout and you don't have to use HQs , that can't hide in squads and those HQ are realy good in melee. You get access to cheap flyers and cheap anti aircraft weapon platforms . The only thing you need for such list from the DA codex are the Raven knights with their plasma and a libby with divination .

White scars are better than ravenwing, but ravenwing should be plenty playable too. Your list and tactics is very likely what holds you back.

Missile launchers are bad, and flakk missiles are even worse. Azrael and a foot libby are not great in a bike list. Azreal can work, but then he should be in a crusader with a bolter banner command squad.

Dark shroud is not great either.

The main things ravenwing has going for it are:
Black knights
Rad grenades
PFG
Extreme MSU
Scout
Bolter banner

I don`t think bolter banner works on a bike, as it is just to easy to snipe it out, so if you are going to run it, run it in a crusader.

I would also go 6x3 bikers with max special weapons over 3x6. I think an optimal troop may be 3 bikes, 2 special + combi + 1 MMAB. 155-175pts per unit, expensive, but it gives you extreme firepower, 2 scoring units per slot and extreme MSU, which makes all shooty deathstars pointless against you.

For 1850 points?

Sammael
Librarian on bike, power field generator
5 man command squad, apothecary, bolter banner, one grenade launcher, Librarian goes here
5 man command squad, apothecary, one grenade launcher, Sammael goes here
6 x 3 Ravenwing bikes, combi-melta, 2 meltaguns, attack bike with multi-melta

That's a total of 1830 points. 12 scoring units, two squads of Black Knights with FnP backed by decent characters, one squad having a 4+ invulnerable save.

Probably fiddling with the units to get a Dark Shroud in there would be a good idea, but basically the idea is to get as many effective models on the table as possible.

Makumba wrote:RW is bad , because they are high cost bikers that have to use cover to work , but this is an edition where good armies ignore cover . Your using a high cost HQ to babysit one unit of devastators and your spending even more points on useless upgrades like flakk for the devs.

The list would work much better , if you started runing it under WS rules. Graviton guns are realy good, you get the same scout and you don't have to use HQs , that can't hide in squads and those HQ are realy good in melee. You get access to cheap flyers and cheap anti aircraft weapon platforms . The only thing you need for such list from the DA codex are the Raven knights with their plasma and a libby with divination .

Well I have what I have. was not looking for a new army but suggestions on how to make the one I have better.

Illumini wrote:White scars are better than ravenwing, but ravenwing should be plenty playable too. Your list and tactics is very likely what holds you back.

Missile launchers are bad, and flakk missiles are even worse. Azrael and a foot libby are not great in a bike list. Azreal can work, but then he should be in a crusader with a bolter banner command squad.

Dark shroud is not great either.

The main things ravenwing has going for it are:
Black knights
Rad grenades
PFG
Extreme MSU
Scout
Bolter banner

I don`t think bolter banner works on a bike, as it is just to easy to snipe it out, so if you are going to run it, run it in a crusader.

I would also go 6x3 bikers with max special weapons over 3x6. I think an optimal troop may be 3 bikes, 2 special + combi + 1 MMAB. 155-175pts per unit, expensive, but it gives you extreme firepower, 2 scoring units per slot and extreme MSU, which makes all shooty deathstars pointless against you.

Like I said, sammael is on the way and I am in the process of converting the lib on a bike. I start with 3 groups of six to get the land speeder with them and then combat squad them. if I just did the squads of 3 I would lose the land speeders but gain options for my bikes. Not sure which is better.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For 1850 points?

Sammael
Librarian on bike, power field generator
5 man command squad, apothecary, bolter banner, one grenade launcher, Librarian goes here
5 man command squad, apothecary, one grenade launcher, Sammael goes here
6 x 3 Ravenwing bikes, combi-melta, 2 meltaguns, attack bike with multi-melta

That's a total of 1830 points. 12 scoring units, two squads of Black Knights with FnP backed by decent characters, one squad having a 4+ invulnerable save.

Probably fiddling with the units to get a Dark Shroud in there would be a good idea, but basically the idea is to get as many effective models on the table as possible.

You have no land speeders in the list. Would it be better to make the bike squads 3x6, get the land speeder, and them combat squad them? I will lose 6 melta guns but gain 3 land speeders with more options?

Thanks so all for responding.

Rw are not bad that is simply wrong, they are a difficult army to use as they have always been, they have the ability to hit very hard and come with some great gadgets that make them better than scars.

Sammy, bit naff true but required
liby on bike, pfg, sit in middle of knight unit
Techmarine on bike, pfg, same as above
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl, banner of fortitude
3 man Rw bike unit, 2 melta or plasma, nothing else, take 3/4 of these and scout/outflank them up the board

This is a solid base to build around and can be bloody nasty, this force will eat riptides etc., the downside is that it's a glass hammer that will hit hard and win hard or lose badly

 Formosa wrote:
Rw are not bad that is simply wrong, they are a difficult army to use as they have always been, they have the ability to hit very hard and come with some great gadgets that make them better than scars.

Sammy, bit naff true but required
liby on bike, pfg, sit in middle of knight unit
Techmarine on bike, pfg, same as above
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl
Rw command squad, 5 members, rwgl, banner of fortitude
3 man Rw bike unit, 2 melta or plasma, nothing else, take 3/4 of these and scout/outflank them up the board

This is a solid base to build around and can be bloody nasty, this force will eat riptides etc., the downside is that it's a glass hammer that will hit hard and win hard or lose badly

what does a techmarine bring besides the pfg? I am surprised that no one on here has put land speeders in their list. Bought 3 of them and 3 attack bikes.

My RW list doesn't have Land Speeders either.

Sammael
Ravenwing Command Squad
5 6-man bike squads with Multi-Melta Attack Bikes
Darkshroud
Black Knights

This is the list I currently just worked up. I think it is worlds better than the list I have been playing; however, it will cost me more money:

HQ
sammael
Lib in bike (pfg)
RWCS (banner of dev, apoth, and champ)

Troops
RWAS - 3 bikes x2 melts, AB (heavy bolter)
RWAS - 3 bikes x2 melts, AB (heavy bolter)
RWAS - 3 bikes x2 melts, AB (heavy bolter)
RWAS - 3 bikes x2 melts
RWAS - 6 bikes x2 melta, LS (heavy bolter, TML)

Fast Attack

LS (heavy bolter, TML)
LS (heavy bolter, TML)
Black Knights x7

--1850

I figure I will stick the lib and sammael with the RWCS to make them very tough to kill. I kept the squads to 3 so I could max the options on the bikes. How does this look? do you think it is effective/



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should I use that many melts? or should I switch them to another weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was also just thinking that I should maybe switch the 7 man black knight squad for another RWCS with apoth. Would free up a few points for some upgrades. Thoughts?

Generally, if you have a prescience Librarian, you keep the Land Speeders in one squadron so they can all benefit from the buff.

I just don't have good experiences with my tin cans. :(

The reasoning behind taking 5 man command squads is that they can get apothecaries so are a tiny bit more survivable, and they're free with an HQ so they don't cut into your fast attack slots.

I should really get a Dark Shroud, but to be honest other than Black Knights none of the new models appeal to me.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Generally, if you have a prescience Librarian, you keep the Land Speeders in one squadron so they can all benefit from the buff.

I just don't have good experiences with my tin cans. :(

The reasoning behind taking 5 man command squads is that they can get apothecaries so are a tiny bit more survivable, and they're free with an HQ so they don't cut into your fast attack slots.

I should really get a Dark Shroud, but to be honest other than Black Knights none of the new models appeal to me.

ya, I got a dark shroud in a clearance bin for cheap the other day (only reason I bought it). I will be trying it once I build it. Problem is I play mostly against tau, eldar, and necron. not fun. So trying to get a few list that work against them because they are tough cookies to crack.

I will have to try that squad of LS for the prescience. So in the new list I have a squad of 3 LS w/ TML, took out the BK squad and made another RWCS w/ apoth, broke down the 6 man bike squad into two squads of 3 w/ 2 melts each (that give me 6 troops. is the max 5 or 6?). That should fill my list a little better. What you think?

eldar and tau ignore cover , biker armies survive because they get cover . There is no way for a pure biker army to beat a properly build tau , eldar or taudar list.

Makumba wrote:
eldar and tau ignore cover , biker armies survive because they get cover . There is no way for a pure biker army to beat a properly build tau , eldar or taudar list.

Well it is what I have so I need to find away to do.

Makumba wrote:
eldar and tau ignore cover , biker armies survive because they get cover . There is no way for a pure biker army to beat a properly build tau , eldar or taudar list.

What utter bollocks. Eldar don't have ignores cover outside of divination. Tau ignores cover is a problem for everyone, not just biker armies.

RW BK spam is very good against Eldar WS spam armies and non-Enclave tau lists. They struggle against seer council without GK allies.

OP, don't listen to the naysayers.

The most effective RW lists go something like

Sammael
Lib PFG
RCS, Banner of choice (I like Fortitude for army-wide FNP)
RCS, RW Standard (Auto-hit and run is amazing)

3-man RAS , 6 man are too unwieldy

RWBKs

Iron Hands Bike Chapter Master with 3++
Grav command squad optional
TFC/Storm Raven

Another think that I am getting worried about is how to deal with flyers. I knew getting into ravenwing I was going to have a problem with them and now I am wondering how you all deal with them? Played against my necron buddy the other day and he had three flyers (d-bag ran a tourney list against me in my first game with everything assembled) that wrecked me once they got in. Everything I read about the dark talon makes me want to not drop money into it.

Unfortunately fliers are just one of those things that Ravenwing don't have the tools to deal with.

We spam melta like champs, so no problems with armour. Banner of Devestation gives a lot of anti-infantry firepower combined with relentless twin-linked boltguns so our problems with infantry are less than normal marine bikers.
We have Black Knights with rad grenades and plasma out the wazoo for at least threatening monstrous creatures, but we have a hard time with fliers.

Basically the best that can be hoped for is gunning down fliers with Black Knights, or maybe prescienced Land Speeder Typhoons. That is one area where Codex Marines have a clear advantage.

You could take allies of course. Pick whichever one has the best anti-flier fliers.

There's always the storming formation.

That would give some anti-air, that's for sure.

Buy 2 vengeance batteries for 150 pts, and you have decent antiair.

I'd highly suggest some IG allies for anti air and some cheap cannon fodder troops to hold the rear. Maybe an Aegis Defense Line for the IG troops and AA stuff to hide behind while your RW dudes go out and mess stuff up?

We will have to liquidate the Imperial Guard after the battle though. We can't allow any hint of the Fallen getting out.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
We will have to liquidate the Imperial Guard after the battle though. We can't allow any hint of the Fallen getting out.

Eh, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Black knights are actually pretty decent at killing fliers due to the excellent movement and twin plasma talons, not as awesome as actual aa stuff but a damn sight better than the nephilim

Buy other things to make It a greenwing army. Trust me, I haven't lost in any if my last 4 games. My army consists of:
Hq: azreal
Libby
Troops: 1x ravenwing command squad with apothecary bolters banner and champion
2x 3 black nights with Corvus hammers
1x tactical squad plas cannon plas gun
One termie squad auto cannon 4 storm bolters and a chain fist and two power fists, deep strike turn two and all weapons get twin linked and split ire the turn they deep strike
Heavy support: dev squad with 2 lascannon and 2 plas cannons
Elites: 5 man vet squad with 2 bolters 1 melta gun sergeant with storm bolter and power fist and 1 man with Storm sheild and power sword

That army does me proud everything I play

 Greenwingf_ftw wrote:
Buy other things to make It a greenwing army. Trust me, I haven't lost in any if my last 4 games. My army consists of:
Hq: azreal
Libby
Troops: 1x ravenwing command squad with apothecary bolters banner and champion
2x 3 black nights with Corvus hammers
1x tactical squad plas cannon plas gun
One termie squad auto cannon 4 storm bolters and a chain fist and two power fists, deep strike turn two and all weapons get twin linked and split ire the turn they deep strike
Heavy support: dev squad with 2 lascannon and 2 plas cannons
Elites: 5 man vet squad with 2 bolters 1 melta gun sergeant with storm bolter and power fist and 1 man with Storm sheild and power sword

That army does me proud everything I play

The only reason that list scares me is cause I would only have two troops. I like to run with at least three.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'd highly suggest some IG allies for anti air and some cheap cannon fodder troops to hold the rear. Maybe an Aegis Defense Line for the IG troops and AA stuff to hide behind while your RW dudes go out and mess stuff up?

What IG would I take? I know nothing about IG

No you wouldn't have only one troop because azreal makes bikes and termies troops

 Greenwingf_ftw wrote:
No you wouldn't have only one troop because azreal makes bikes and termies troops

He only makes ravenwing bike and deathwing term troops, not black knights.

Rw knights as troops, wow the world would scream cheese

 Greenwingf_ftw wrote:
Buy other things to make It a greenwing army. Trust me, I haven't lost in any if my last 4 games. My army consists of:
Hq: azreal
Libby
Troops: 1x ravenwing command squad with apothecary bolters banner and champion
2x 3 black nights with Corvus hammers
1x tactical squad plas cannon plas gun
One termie squad auto cannon 4 storm bolters and a chain fist and two power fists, deep strike turn two and all weapons get twin linked and split ire the turn they deep strike
Heavy support: dev squad with 2 lascannon and 2 plas cannons
Elites: 5 man vet squad with 2 bolters 1 melta gun sergeant with storm bolter and power fist and 1 man with Storm sheild and power sword

That army does me proud everything I play

That is one of the most disjointed army-lists I have seen in a long time.

Who benefits from the "bolters banner"?
Only two Troop choices?
Terminator Autocannon? Assault Cannon?
1557 points?
Is this Dark Vengeance plus a bit?

Yeah just read it ... Very odd list indeed and illegal too, no bike mounted hq so no rw command squad, the 3 man knight units are gonna die to a swift breeze too