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I am currently assembling a Fallen Angels formation with Cypher and the chosen so I decided to dive into the fluff a bit. The story is very interesting however I find the Dark Angels version to be a little sketchy. Reading up on the Fallen's recount, their story seems more consistent. I'm going to ride with the Fallen on this. It feels like the Dark Angels are hiding something.

The Dark Angels hide many things...
I believe the Fallen. The Dark Angels just don't want them to come out of the closet with their secrets...

Dark angels are not true dark angels, they only came from caliban and that is long gone, the current angels are evil and getting worse as the centuries go on, they are not even remotely the good guys anymore, they have been so corrupted by.there secrecy and obsession I would bet lion el Johnson would not even recognise them as his sons.

Well, there is the conspiracy that it wasn't Luther who fell to chaos, or that the Lion was basically sitting on the fence in the heresy.

Yeah I'm not sure how you see them as evil... The codex and cypher dataslate says explicitly that many of the fallen turned to chaos and Luthor was dramatically more powerful from the aid of the gods. It also says that the dark angels now and then dove into battle for the imperium immediately to attempt to wash away their sins. During this time they did more for the imperium than most other marine chapters.

True, they have secrets. But what exactly about the fallen do you believe? That they are the good guys? Is that why so many of them have become followers of chaos? Instigated rebellions against the imperium? Clear good guy move there.

Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

 Ignatius wrote:
Yeah I'm not sure how you see them as evil... The codex and cypher dataslate says explicitly that many of the fallen turned to chaos and Luthor was dramatically more powerful from the aid of the gods. It also says that the dark angels now and then dove into battle for the imperium immediately to attempt to wash away their sins. During this time they did more for the imperium than most other marine chapters.

True, they have secrets. But what exactly about the fallen do you believe? That they are the good guys? Is that why so many of them have become followers of chaos? Instigated rebellions against the imperium? Clear good guy move there.

Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

Good points. I refer specifically to the Lion and Luther situation. I question who was the traitor in that conflict.

I believe Luther was merely a victim of his own emotion - He had seen the Lion as some of a son to him. As his new father, the Emperor, came and swept him away to command his great armies, the Lion ordered his erstwhile comrade to stay at home. Luther mustve been feeling some resentment, and as the Chaos Gods have shown their interest in the Primarchs, maybe they sought to turn Luther as a way to get into the Lion's head?

Well the Unforgiven don't count a daemon prince among their ranks, so I'll have to side with them.

No matter who's side you take. Luther was not a space marine he was in between a human and a marine. There is no way he could beat a primarch on his own with out Chaos's help. While the Dark Angels have their secrets and maybe true the Lion waited to see who won on Terra there is no question who the bad guys really are.

The Black Library novels make it pretty clear Lion was loyal all along, I think. Assuming you take BL to be canon.

Cannon or not its still a interesting topic.
I dig the whole Cypher thing and look forward to more titdbits...

If the story ever goes anywhere

I've spent a fair bit of time looking at the history of the dark angels in particular the lord cypher. I think he's the only true dark angel left. True as in, a reminder of what they were before the lion started going off on one and sending his own men back to caliban through jealousy. Having said that I will admit I think Luther fell to chaos. Maybe not as quickly as we are led to believe. But I alsothink the lion was iinfluenced massively by chaos. At a true with curze, undr a white flag which is invioble, he attacked his brother. Not so decent. I think the only angel to hold any hope is cypher, but he is a pragmatist, he does what he must sometimes playing both sides. New normal initiates into the dark angels would be ideal followers for him. Disband or destroy the circles of secrecy. Plop cypher in as chapter master. Job done. Once more a true loyal chapter

the Cypher dataslate has some intresting implications if you read carefully between the lines. I particularly refer to the passage that says

Patchy records do seem to indicate that a few of
Luther’s charges – both veterans and new recruits alike – rejected his newer
teachings, remaining true to the Legion, Lion El’Jonson, and their Emperor. These
individuals who did not join the betrayal are not named, but seem to have begun
the fighting before the Dark Angels fleet appeared in orbit. To show their rejection
of Luther, some of the loyalists seem to have repainted their armour. This, perhaps,
gives a hint as to the real reason why the Legion switched from black to green
colours in the aftermath of the Fall of Caliban.

this is an intresting statement because Cypher wears green power armor.

are perhaps some of the fallen not as fallen as we might think? it's an intresting question

 Ignatius wrote:


Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

Firstly not all Renegades are necessarily Chaos followers.

The part I bolded, has that ever happened in 40k fluff ever? The Imperium welcoming a wayward faction back with open arms? No, my money is on fire and pain.

That said while I believe neither DA nor Fallen are really that honorable or reliable, the DA are mostly loyal to the Emperor.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Cypher dataslate has some intresting implications if you read carefully between the lines. I particularly refer to the passage that says

Patchy records do seem to indicate that a few of
Luther’s charges – both veterans and new recruits alike – rejected his newer
teachings, remaining true to the Legion, Lion El’Jonson, and their Emperor. These
individuals who did not join the betrayal are not named, but seem to have begun
the fighting before the Dark Angels fleet appeared in orbit. To show their rejection
of Luther, some of the loyalists seem to have repainted their armour. This, perhaps,
gives a hint as to the real reason why the Legion switched from black to green
colours in the aftermath of the Fall of Caliban.

this is an intresting statement because Cypher wears green power armor.

are perhaps some of the fallen not as fallen as we might think? it's an intresting question

That's a really interesting question!

It's because (and his new statline makes it obvious) Cypher is actually the Lion, and not Luther as people often think.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's because (and his new statline makes it obvious) Cypher is actually the Lion, and not Luther as people often think.

They're both stuck on the Rock, and while his new stats make him obviously fast and skilled he lacks the physical strength and fortitude of a Primarch.

Since when were they both stuck on the rock? They vanished after the battle. Are the Dark Angels lying again? Tut tut.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

the Cypher dataslate has some intresting implications if you read carefully between the lines. I particularly refer to the passage that says

Patchy records do seem to indicate that a few of
Luther’s charges – both veterans and new recruits alike – rejected his newer
teachings, remaining true to the Legion, Lion El’Jonson, and their Emperor. These
individuals who did not join the betrayal are not named, but seem to have begun
the fighting before the Dark Angels fleet appeared in orbit. To show their rejection
of Luther, some of the loyalists seem to have repainted their armour. This, perhaps,
gives a hint as to the real reason why the Legion switched from black to green
colours in the aftermath of the Fall of Caliban.

this is an intresting statement because Cypher wears green power armor.

are perhaps some of the fallen not as fallen as we might think? it's an intresting question

That's a really interesting question!

This is what I have always assumed of Cypher and some of the Fallen. That they are, in fact, not evil nor Chaos. Simply rejected by their former Legion/Chapter and the Empire at whole. Because of this they must wander and find a way to be useful in other ways(Black Shielding for the Deathwatch perhaps?). Cypher, I believe, is the one who has the ability and knowledge to restore those that haven't Fallen and perhaps the Unforgiven as well...and his quest is to do just that by taking the sword he is carrying to either the Lion or the Emperor himself.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since when were they both stuck on the rock? They vanished after the battle. Are the Dark Angels lying again? Tut tut.

It's flat out stated in the codex. Only the very top of the Inner Circle know that Luther's in there, and none of the Dark Angels even know the Lion's there (but the Emperor and the watchers do)

There was a brilliant fanfic story that involved Cypher in 50 and 60k

MarsNZ wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

Firstly not all Renegades are necessarily Chaos followers.

The part I bolded, has that ever happened in 40k fluff ever? The Imperium welcoming a wayward faction back with open arms? No, my money is on fire and pain.

That said while I believe neither DA nor Fallen are really that honorable or reliable, the DA are mostly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe that in the Deathwatch book from FFG there's a section that states that some Astartes turn up at the DW fortresses in black armour, and that the DW doesn't question who they are/where they came from, they just give 'em a bolter & point them towards xenos. Don't know if the black armour is supposed to be a Fallen reference, suspect not.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Cypher dataslate has some intresting implications if you read carefully between the lines. I particularly refer to the passage that says

Patchy records do seem to indicate that a few of
Luther’s charges – both veterans and new recruits alike – rejected his newer
teachings, remaining true to the Legion, Lion El’Jonson, and their Emperor. These
individuals who did not join the betrayal are not named, but seem to have begun
the fighting before the Dark Angels fleet appeared in orbit. To show their rejection
of Luther, some of the loyalists seem to have repainted their armour. This, perhaps,
gives a hint as to the real reason why the Legion switched from black to green
colours in the aftermath of the Fall of Caliban.

this is an intresting statement because Cypher wears green power armor.

are perhaps some of the fallen not as fallen as we might think? it's an intresting question

Except that traditionally Cypher wore black armour. It has only been recently been changed to green.

Ulcis wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

Firstly not all Renegades are necessarily Chaos followers.

The part I bolded, has that ever happened in 40k fluff ever? The Imperium welcoming a wayward faction back with open arms? No, my money is on fire and pain.

That said while I believe neither DA nor Fallen are really that honorable or reliable, the DA are mostly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe that in the Deathwatch book from FFG there's a section that states that some Astartes turn up at the DW fortresses in black armour, and that the DW doesn't question who they are/where they came from, they just give 'em a bolter & point them towards xenos. Don't know if the black armour is supposed to be a Fallen reference, suspect not.

It can be a reference for any marine who has commited an act of dishonour, blue on blue incident, losing a relic of the chapter, being the last remaining marine of a wiped out squad/company/chapter, turning renegade before seeing the error of their ways... Very Knights Watch-ish from Game of Thrones.

Part of the deal that no questions are asked makes it possible that there could be fallen in the ranks of the deathwatch, but how could they explain their prolongued life without being tainted by the warp...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Ulcis wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Most have turned to chaos marines, some have integrated peacefully into society, but NONE (that any background has hinted at) have returned as servants to the imperium. Seems odd doesn't it?

Firstly not all Renegades are necessarily Chaos followers.

The part I bolded, has that ever happened in 40k fluff ever? The Imperium welcoming a wayward faction back with open arms? No, my money is on fire and pain.

That said while I believe neither DA nor Fallen are really that honorable or reliable, the DA are mostly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe that in the Deathwatch book from FFG there's a section that states that some Astartes turn up at the DW fortresses in black armour, and that the DW doesn't question who they are/where they came from, they just give 'em a bolter & point them towards xenos. Don't
know if the black armour is supposed to be a Fallen reference, suspect not.

It can be a reference for any marine who has commited an act of dishonour, blue on blue incident, losing a relic of the chapter, being the last remaining marine of a wiped out squad/company/chapter, turning renegade before seeing the error of their ways... Very Knights Watch-ish from Game of Thrones.

Part of the deal that no questions are asked makes it possible that there could be fallen in the ranks of the deathwatch, but how could they explain their prolongued life without being tainted by the warp...

Uh, you know space marines are affectively immortal? Right?

That isn't confirmed canon, it is pure speculation if mentioned in the fluff. Fact is, most marines die before they get to the point they could die of old age or become inactive.

The Blood Angels and Dante are not an example of this as his age is evidently tied to the fluff that they're vampire-ish.... So it's fitting for him to be uber old.

I have also read many passages stating a marine lives 700 to 800 years old.

More than willing to be proved wrong on this though.

Azreal...being the Grandmaster is the only Dark Angel alive that knows of Luther and the Lion being where they are today...

I think a lot of the age inconsistencies can be put down to time spent in transit in the warp. I think it was pointed out in one of the early HH novels that chronilogically Garro is older than Iacton Qruze but that Qruze is actually physically far older because Garro has spent so much time travelling lost distance via warp space. Similarly the Night Lords in Soul Hunter did not worship Chaos, except for the Exhalted but due to their fleeing to the Eye, their perception of time since the Heresy is only just over a century whereas in the real world it has been over 10,000 years. This also explains why the traitor legions still have relatively high numbers despite being the losing side with a much weaker infrastructure for recruiting than the loyalists. It stands to reason, I mean in 10,000 years one would have either expected them to have won by now or been wiped out, but if it has only been a span of centuries then it makes more sense for so many of them to be around. Also I'm sure I read that after The Fallen lost they were scattered through both time and space. So many of them could have been flung thousands of years into the future. Meaning that a Fallen Angel encountered in 40k could literally have only just escaped the destruction of Caliban by his reckoning.

The only answer here can be neither.

Both the DA and the fallen angels have their own opinions on the matter, based mostly on speculation.

Only Cypher knows what's really going on.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:


Part of the deal that no questions are asked makes it possible that there could be fallen in the ranks of the deathwatch, but how could they explain their prolongued life without being tainted by the warp...

IIRC, they do tell the Watchmaster their past. So at least one marine on the Deathwatch knows their reason for being there (probably a nescesity or else any Chaos Marine could just slip in if they wanted to). Thus, it'd be rather difficult for a fallen to get in, I imagine.