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Oh boy, I love these topics. This is a particularly grindy gear of mine.

The CSM Codex is pretty awful and only comes off worse the longer you compare it to other 6th Ed codices, with Marines as a particularly painful comparison to make. It is an embarrassment of internal balance, awful game mechanics, completely fails to bring the background to the tabletop, and actively punishes the player for his choices. The few diamonds in the book are far between and well-known, so either the CSM player chows down on his book of mediocrity and gets stomped off the table, or takes one of the 'good' armies and consequently despised by his peers for being unimaginative and spammy.

The book is boring because while it has a variety of units, it does not have a variety of playstyles. It is easy to see the book and think "Well a Tzeentch army is clearly different to a Slaanesh army, is different to an Iron Warriors army" etc. But it is not. Regardless of stats, all of them are a derivative of 'MEQ units walking or Rhino-ing up'.
There are no Drop Pods or *good* Deep Strike options. There is no potential to Outflank or Infiltrate beyond a random D3 roll or taking Slaaneshii Steeds. There is no variety in transports and the few that do exist, are awful. All of the Troop options are stuck as infantry and so you are always based on a slow core middling its way upfield.
Conversely the loyalists retain Rhinos and Land Raiders, except their Land Raiders are worth fielding. They also pick up Razorbacks to give it a twist. They can field Drop Pods and back that up with Teleport Homers and Locators. They can field a purely Bike-mounted army. They can field an entire army of Infiltrators, while the Khan gives you Scout and Outflank. Enjoy your troops arriving by Stormraven, or by Land Speeder Storm. Chaos is utterly boring in it's deployment and mobility options.

Awful balance. Just look at the difference between Nurgle and anything else, or between the Fast Attack and Elites choices, or between Berzerkers and Plague Marines. The lists are basically a choice of 'Which template are my HQ and Troops going to fill', of which you can choose Plague Marines, Plague Zombies or Noise Marines for the daring. Then stuff the obligatory Heldrakes and Nurgle Obliterators until you meet the points requirement.
It is beyond forgiveness that units like Possessed, Warp Talons, Thousand Sons and Helbrutes even exist with their relevant rules. The likes of Berzerkers, Mutilators, 'Fiends and Apostles are not as bad but remain an atrocious deal compared with their competition. On the other hand, a Heldrake is a marauding slaughterer of men and some of the best 170pts you will spend in any army. Games tend to be a collection of cheerleaders rooting for your Obliterator-Heldrake megateam to kill everyone while sitting out the way.

It also fails to bring the fluff. No Legions are represented besides a Black Legion book that contradicts its own fluff completely. The Legion representation is limited to a single unit plus a Special Character because a Mark does not equal a Cult. A Nurgle Terminator is not Death Guard, because they have apparently lost Fearless and FNP while squeezing into their armour. Khornes Chosen are WS4, lack Fearless and Furious Charge, and cannot buy Chainaxes. The Rubric Terminators learnt to feel fear again while losing Inferno Bolts and psychic abilities. Ahriman forgot that he was Magister of the divination temple, and instead fancied himself as a Witchfire specialist. The book is rife with these issues.
In a world where we have special rules to distinguish between Loyalist at a *Company* level, it is insulting to provide nothing at all that distinguishes an Iron Warrior from an Emperors Child.


People see a Chaos Marine at 13pts with Mark options and think it's glorious. Except they end up at the same price because the Champion is forced on you. They are the same cost for a squad, except they lose ATSKNF, Combat Squads, *Chapter Tactics* and instead gain a suicidal Champion. Marks can quite happily be reduced to 'Mark of Nurgle' because it's the only one that matters, and then ignore that one anyway because Plague Marines exist. They have no BB Allies besides Daemons, and then cannot join them anyway. They don't get Inquisition allies, they don't get an entire Forge World PDF to provide Chapter Tactics and they don't get GW lavishing love over every orifice.
So we have a Chaos Marine that trades away all his special rules, all his deployment options, all his friends and costs 3pts more, and gained T5 for his trouble. When the Loyalist could just roll Iron Hand for free and be of comparable resilience for the cost.


RAGE

4 attacks on the charge. Rage. They still suck as theyre 21ppm, with no decent close combat or special weapons choices. (chainaxes arent good)

"10 points for gift of mutation which might spawn your aspiring sorcerer or do nothing or melta bombs"

Gift CANNOT spawn your model. Roll again.

I find Noise Marines to be the most annoying and aggravating unit in the CSM codex with the Heldrake as a close second.

I think next time they do either of the marine codex's they can learn from each other.

Chaos elites are actually elites not marines with posh bolt guns and the same stat line.

But I admit the codex does lack variety and struggles with mobility (hence my zombie screen)

But a mark of chaos is still better than a chapter tactic IMO

I also admit I will miss razorbacks :(

And potentially 41 ws5 attacks with prefered enemy is still pretty hurty. So are warp talons but they are SUPER EXPENSIVE!!

Sorry but just no...I like the CSM book ok but it pales in comparison to the new Marine Book.

Glaring Issues with the CSM book.

1.) Champion of Chaos Rule is the worst special rule in the entire game. Oh look at my cool character I spent points on...oh wait you charged him with a greater daemon...I have to challenge and die...yay. Oh wait I won...now I'm a naked daemon prince...or a spawn.

2.) You like their elites? Terminators are the only decent Elite choice...everything else there would get taken as troops or not at all. Berzerkers are bad for the cost.. You compare them to vanguard vets...who are 2 points cheaper per model...have the same number of attacks on the charge...and are better if charged, can take jump packs, and melee upgrades. And still are not considered good. Berzerkers are too slow to be good at assault in this edition (also other than WS 5 I can make a squad of CSM do the same thing for 15 points). The issue is that CSM elites are not elites at all they used to be troops. So if you take out the units that were troops (and only ever get taken as troops) you get: Terminators, Helbrutes, Mutilators. Still like them better?

3.)Troops, suck cultists are OK...CSM are straight worse than Tactical squads. Sure you can take cult troops...but then you lock into specific HQ (which was not the case in the last book.)

4.) Fast Attack might be the only slot CSM is better with Heldrakes, Bikes and Spawn...but this slot is overloaded.

4.) Marks of Chaos are straight up worse than chapter tactics. Because chapter tactics are Free. Lets say you wanted to mark you entire army you are looking at paying 50-100 points extra in some cases to do so.

Marcus - hatred from VOTLW, not PE. PE is with the right warlord trait, on a table where only potion 3 is usually any good (6 isnt bad)

and it is only PE space marines...which means it is useless when not facing space marines.

Silly codex with vanilla options and uninteresting gimmicks that have been copied verbatim from 3rd edition.

Basic CSM no longer have free Boltgun +Pistol and CCW (although it's only one point extra), which cuts their utility down to even less than a vanilla tac squad.

Also, the champion model is a joke, and I don't know why they released it. I guess the codex is better than the previous one, and included some relatively interesting new stuff, but they short sighted it, and didn't really change the play style of CSM at all, which I've always thought has been boring and predictable. We have no drop pods, still. We have no flyers besides the helldrake. We have the same bloated units that all serve similar purposes. More than anything, we still have predictable choices, like plague marines and Obliterators that will undoubtedly be staples of any CSM army for a long time because no one is stupid enough to bother with anything else.

They also removed lesser and greater daemons, which I thought added a bit of flavor, even if no one in their right mind would use them.

Not sure if OP is trolling or a comic genius.

I have to say though, as an idiot who refuses to give up melee marines I'd much rather have Juggerlords, Spawn, Marines with Rage, Furious Charge and rerolls to charge distance, and Cultists to sit on objectives than Honour Guard and a whole Codex full of subpar melee units.

Further, let's be honest; CT: White Scars and CT: Iron Hands are better than the rest in the same way that Plague Marines are better than the other Cult Troops. Grav-guns are nice and all, but if you're taking them on anything that isn't a bike (i.e. play White Scars or go home!) you're taking a subpar special weapon. TH/SS Terminators more or less require a mandatory Land Raider to function, and while they still "work" it's a trick that's as old as the LAST Codex, so it's not like people don't know how to handle it. I'd even go as far as to say that CSM aren't worse than Tacticals, since they can get two special weapons (yeah yeah, no heavy weapon, I'll get there!) instead of one. Double special weapons lets CSM specialize in a way that Tactical Squads just can't, and with extra CCWs they're better in melee than Tacts as well. ATSKNF is probably the most overvalued special rule in the game; it's good, but it's not good enough to, on its own, make Tacticals better than CSM, especially not now that Fearless doesn't kill you in CC anymore.

Moving on to the heavy weapons of the Tactical Squad, having a unit with two of the same Special Weapon is vastly superior to having one with a heavy and a special, as it lets you be better at the task you're supposed to be doing. Double special troops to take midfield objectives, cultists to sit on and hold backfield objectives. Really, CSM are slightly cheaper Grey Hunters that lose ATSKNF and swap some faction-specific options around. If the argument was that CSM were inferior to Grey Hunters then sure, I'd agree, but so are every other MEQ troops choice in the game (barring possibly Grey Knights).

In closing: Is the Chaos book worse than it could be? Probably, same goes for C:SM. Is there a lot of stuff that sucks in it? Yep, same as the C:SM. Are there loads of builds that are worse than the best build in the book? You bet, same as the C:SM. Is it significantly weaker than C:SM? I wouldn't say so. What it is, though, is a missed opportunity, but (as a BT player) so is C:SM.

Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

brother marcus wrote:
Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

Hatred: Space Marines needs to be paid for. It ranged from +1 to +5pts depending on the model. It is not a bad upgrade but it alternates between 'worthless' (Anyone not a Marine) and 'useful, for one turn, if you can reach combat'.
The Daemon Prince is a bad upgrade because he loses any Daemon Weapon he used to have, loses any Steeds and loses the protection of his friends. He will also immediately die if you either lack a Prince model, or cannot place a large base within 3". Considering he changes in combat, there are often enemy models in the way and so he dies instead of ascending.

Vanguard are also largely held to be an awful unit. Being an alternative to Vanguard is not the same as being a good unit. Incidentally, Vanguard with Jump might be more expensive but then actually stand a chance of reaching combat. They also have more attacks.
Possessed do not have the chance to be awesome. They are slow, unprotected, and expensive. If by some dark miracle they reach combat, you've earned S5 and a random buff you have no control over.

Plague Marines and Noise Marines are nice, that's why you never see a list without them. See the comments regarding lack of variety and internal balance.
Troops suck because they are Marines in profile only, with none of the usual rules. Chapter Tactics alone is worth that 1pt difference, the loss of ATSKNF and Combat Squads is salt in the wound. They only have more attacks at the expense of either Bolters or a 2pt investment, and the 2 Special weapons is a genuine silver lining. Of course vanilla gets Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons and Grav, but double-Plasma is a nice touch still.

Mark of Nurgle is nice, the other 3 are extremely sub-standard. Even then a 14pt Iron Hand is proportionally tougher than a 17pt Nurgle Marine, except he also has ATSKNF, Combat Squads and IWND HQ on top.

brother marcus wrote:
Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

Yea vanguard can have jump packs that you have to pay for. But they don't have ws5 and hatred or fearless and your saying they aren't worth 2 points

Also your forgetting possessed which have the potencial to be awesome depending on their gifts
And what about plague marines and there absolute resilience.
Noise marines and the shear amount of fire they can pump out yes there expensive but very effective


And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

What do I see the most of lets see...Tau, Eldar, and Daemons...so yeah don't care about hatred SM very much.

Sure you retain your mark as a Daemon prince....and lose any psychic powers, steed/bike, special CC weapon etc....and you are unengaged so you frequently get shot to death before doing anything...DP roll is bad.

Yes I'm saying I'd rather pay 22 Points for Jump Pack guys than 21 for guys on foot, who will never make it to assault. Both are bad but Vanguard are better.

Possessed are bad...because they are random.
Plague Marines only see play as troops because as an elite who cares...they are good objective holders and takers...which needs them scoring.

Noise Marines are bad in my experience salvo is bad on non-relentless units. Other Units out range them and take them down.

How do they have more CC attacks (unless you pay for it). Two special weapons is ok...but still not great. Combat squads is a great ability and chapter tactics improve your troops.

Cultists are OK but easily killed by top armies. Fearless is bad when you get charged by some units. And they don't kill anything.

You always pay for a Mark except on cult troops. Plague Marines are good. But you still pay 24 points each for them. Which means fewer points for other things.

This is all coming from the guy that thinks defilers are good. Spending 200+ points on an AV 12 walker that can't even use most of the guns it has...that you paid for. Thousand sons? Please. They die just as quick to small arms as normal marines...but have no special weapons, cant fire overwatch, coupled with no close combat ability and cost ALOT. I could go on and on but there are a billion threads dedicated to this very topic. The loyalist codex is superior, laughingly so. So much so that im thinking about using their codex for my chaos models. It would fit the the fluff better and be more effective.

I play a Thousand Sons army (sort of).

Trust me, they aren't durable or killy. All taking Thousand Sons as your main infantry means is that the enemy heavy weapons are free to target your support units.

Brother M - my juggerlord, Axe of Blind Fury has between 8 and 13 S6 AP2 attacks, while being T5, 4W,3+/4++ (because we're not allowed non-termi 2+ saves, despite having the option in 3rd)

If he turns into a DP, he drops to A6 at best on the charge, and drops to a 5++. Against the things that kill me that is a crucial drop.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Not sure if OP is trolling or a comic genius.

For sure one, but maybe both....

I am stunned people are replying to be completely honest.

Next: Woah, my gravgun counts ask white scars biker list is terrible now that my opponent has servo skulls, should I sell my space marines?

there seem to be a lot of "trollish" topics recently a large number of "proxy" or counts as (for various reasons and guises) threads recently.

Is this the normal amount or is there something else going on here.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I play a Thousand Sons army (sort of).

Trust me, they aren't durable or killy. All taking Thousand Sons as your main infantry means is that the enemy heavy weapons are free to target your support units.

So that is why your eyes occasionally drip with black goo...

Oh yeah and Kson sorcerers (troops, Ahriman, and the HQ sorcerer that doesn't feel like one) all blindly declare challenges in arrogance.

brother marcus wrote:
Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Apparently and understanding of how the game works? I dunno, I wouldn't say its a *bad* codex, but its definitely not *better* than the Space Marines codex. Fluff sections weak, half the units in the book are entirely impractical, if not virtually unusable, and really, its an entirely uninspired book IMO. There was so much more potential for the book, they could have done some really cool things with it, but it comes across as half-baked for the most part. I actually like the loyalist book better, now thats a codex that can get my creative juices flowing (and I play CSM, not loyalist).

And I actually think defilers are good!! Especially seen as though they can regen their lost hull points

If only, unfortunately an opponent that knows what their doing will strip your defiler of all its hull points before you even have a chance to regen it.

Yes a demon prince can be one shoted but with wings if its not in cc it will be moving so fast you can't really hit him

lol for realll???!? You think that??? HAAHA. I have some lovely property in Camden, NJ that I would just LOOOOVE to sell you, great neighborhood, good schools, no crime whatsoever ;P

The CSM Codex is pretty awful and only comes off worse the longer you compare it to other 6th Ed codices, with Marines as a particularly painful comparison to make. It is an embarrassment of internal balance, awful game mechanics, completely fails to bring the background to the tabletop, and actively punishes the player for his choices. The few diamonds in the book are far between and well-known, so either the CSM player chows down on his book of mediocrity and gets stomped off the table, or takes one of the 'good' armies and consequently despised by his peers for being unimaginative and spammy.

Don't forget that the inclusion of Chapter Tactics in the Marines book was a slap to the face of Chaos players everywhere! Apparrently the wildly divergent Chaos Legions (and various renegade warbands) wasn't deserving of representation in the rules, but the relatively more standardized loyalist chapters get to have all sorts of neat little abilities to play with ON TOP OF not one BUT TWO Supplemental books to add even MORE options and VARIATION to the loyalist types, meanwhile the Black Legion book, while certainly interesting, doesn't really add much to the CSM that we didn't already have.

Okay it's hatred - space marine which lets be honest what do you see most of yea you gussed it.

Eldar? I haven't seen a Space Marine army on the table in my area in months actually (unless you count Grey Knights, which I've seen once in that same timeframe).

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

If my grandma had balls she'd be my grandpa.You have a 1 in 18 chance of rolling a Daemon Prince, and thats not including the probability required for you to make it far enough to actually get the chance to make that roll. And woe be unto you if you're in close combat and you can't place the model, and woe be unto you if you spent more than a handful of points on upgrading the champion or whatever that becomes the prince, the worst thing that could happen is to have your Chaos Lord become a Prince.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

4) GW ignoring us: this isn't related to the codex but dang it, we whined for 4 YEARS to GW about the crappy 4th ED codex about Legion rules and all we got were second rate power ranger robots.

Bitch please, trying being a Dark Eldar/Necrons/WHFB Wood Elves or Bretonnia player. 4 years is nothing.

On topic, I think a lot of what the other posters have said sums it up pretty well. From what I've seen, CSM can do perfectly well - even in a competitive setting - but to do so have to confirm to very set criteria with list building.

We speak not of Wood Elves and Bretonnia nor Sisters of Battle. What poor unfortunate souls...

Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Put the two books side by side. Read them together (at the same time) page for page. I think you'll see what you did wrong there. A lot of people initially had a very positive reaction to the Chaos book when it first came out, but actually using it has since proven many of those reactions wrong. Add to that the fact that many of the newer books have fairly reliable ways of countering the few good builds the book can put out AND the fact that those builds are very predictable and yeah, you may be missing a few things.

Yes a demon prince can be one shoted but with wings if its not in cc it will be moving so fast you can't really hit him

Skyfire interceptor. Enjoy your wings.

If you lord becomes a demon prince he still retains his mark and an daemon prince has a much better stat line than the normal commander anyway so what's wrong with being a demon prince ??

So the ONE TIME this edition I managed to get Kharn across the table and into CC, he challenged (because he HAS to challenge - thanks Phil K ...) a Divy Librarian. A lowly sgt. took the challenge instead. Naturally I killed him and short order. I then became a Demon Prince. Since Kharne lost ALL of his abilities, weapons and superior stat line, he was killed the very next turn.

Note that you don't have to kill a character in CC to be forced to roll on the Boon Table. You just have to have a character kill another character. I once had Huron use his flamer on a squad of tac marines. The sgt. died. I rolled the DP result but as Huron was hiding between two buildings there was no room for the large base and he died. So that was pretty cool.

The ONLY time it's "cool" to roll a DP result is when your Cultist champ rolls it, but we all know what the odds are of a cultist even getting to roll on the chart in the first place. Add to that the fact that you probably still won't have room to place the base and yeah, still think it's a good thing?

The single biggest issue with the book (imo) is the fact that it's based on a 4th/5th ed paradigm. Where most of the other sixth ed books (and even one or two of the freaking FIFTH ED BOOKS) were built to really take advantage of and work (in a positive way) with the 6th ed rules, the Chaos book simply refuses to acknowledge that we've changed editions. Take Warp Talons for example. They would have been BRILLIANT in 4th or 5th ed. Amazing. Instead however, we have a CC unit that has been costed on a 5th edition scale that relies on Deepstriking without scattering in order to use its special ability to close into cc. This in an edition where you can't assault the turn you deepstrike, over-watch exists, anything they are assaulting will be significantly cheaper than they are, and in a book that gives its player no reliable way to avoid deep-strike miss-haps. Again, thanks Phil.

And how do troops suck. ?? They have more cc attacks and can have two special weapons which will make them far more focused
And cultists can be in 20 man squads that will take a lot to get them either off an objective or out of your face. Or better yet be turned into a giant fearless blob of zombies !!

Kelly dropped CSM leadership by one point just so he could charge us a point per man to shoehorn that LD back in. CSM lack ATSKNF but are costed incredibly close to loyalist standards, their upgrade options are FAR too expensive and most of those options are not worth it. In terms of pure points efficiency, CSM generally do not measure up. Especially in an edition where 3+ AP is so common.

So that being said, many people end up with cultists. To that I would say, compare the stats, equipment and abilities of a squad of cultists to the stats, equipment and abilities of a squad of Kroot and if you can still tell me the Cultists are appropriately pointed and "worth it ..." well then, I have a bridge to sell you.

You very rarely have to pay for a mark depending on your hq's mark. And no marks are better than chapter tactics ( maybe IF,WS are better)

Huh? Unless I'm the one missing something here, you ALWAYS have to pay for marks. Always. Sure, if you take a HQ with the appropriate mark, you can take the corresponding cult units as troops instead of elites, but you are still paying for their mark in the elevated cost of the unit. No free lunches here.

I think he meant that Cult Troops all have the mark already built into their cost, therefore making it appear 'free'.

I have to say though, as an idiot who refuses to give up melee marines I'd much rather have Juggerlords, Spawn, Marines with Rage, Furious Charge and rerolls to charge distance, and Cultists to sit on objectives than Honour Guard and a whole Codex full of subpar melee units.

Yeah, I'll give you that one. The loyalist CC marines will still have much better support from the units backing them and they will have better and more varied ways of getting to combat, but yeah, on the whole, your point stands imo.

Further, let's be honest; CT: White Scars and CT: Iron Hands are better than the rest in the same way that Plague Marines are better than the other Cult Troops.

I don't think it's really quite that extreme. I've only played with four of the Traits so far (IH, WS, Ultras and IF), and while I found IH and WS to be pretty powerful, the Ultramarines trait, while requiring a proper amount of timing and forethought, has turned out to consistently be one of the most powerful in the game. IF was really good too, but that's admittedly because it's fairly list and situation dependent and I was definitly in the right situation with the right list. So anyway, I feel you can debate over which CT is the "best", but imo, the fact that you CAN debate it tells me that the CT's are, in general, much better than the marks. I don't know that you can easily debate that there's anything much better for this edition than Nurgle.

And I would argue that Vulkanmanders is still pretty decent as well as possibly IF albeit the two aren't as good. Still though, it is better than having to pay for +1 I or better yet a 6++ save.

 StarTrotter wrote:
And I would argue that Vulkanmanders is still pretty decent as well as possibly IF albeit the two aren't as good. Still though, it is better than having to pay for +1 I or better yet a 6++ save.

Which you can get for free with some of the chapter tactics.

The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

Apologies if that was sarcasm that I didn't detect, but there is not some zen-mastery of the Codex that requires meditation and discipline to unlock. There is a reason that Chaos Marines rarely place in large tournaments unless it's as an obligatory Allied Heldrake, and it is not because GT winners do not know the army.

What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Apologies if that was sarcasm that I didn't detect, but there is not some zen-mastery of the Codex that requires meditation and discipline to unlock. There is a reason that Chaos Marines rarely place in large tournaments unless it's as an obligatory Allied Heldrake, and it is not because GT winners do not know the army.

Apologies accepted, thanks.