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@Tycho. Typing on my phone so quoting is out of the question.AnAnyway, my list is a Verizon of armor rush. Four rhinos, biker squad, two maulerfiends, heldrake, flying DP. We all race forward and for the most part are able to be where I want by turn 2. Pick your targets and hope the charge dice like you. The rhino squads usually can't charge until turn 3 but they have no issues hanging around for a turn delivering bladtmaster or doomsiren death.

But like I said earlier this is all much easier if the other guy isn't playing table edge gun line. Naturally. That's just one of the bad matchups for this list.

WOW! That's REALLY similar to my Armor Sat. list. Yeah, I've had issues with gunlines as well. Have you tried anything for backfield disruption? My Khorne marked dual lightning clawed termicide squad has been moderately successful at getting to grips with the gunline quickly and breaking it up a bit. I've also had some luck with DS'ing Raptors using different load outs, but you kind of have to guess ahead of time with the load outs and if you guessed wrong ... lol

EDIT:
Depending on the type of gunline I've also had some success walking my troops up-field BEHIND the Rhinos rahther than in them. I put my LR and Helbrutes up front to soak up shots, hide the troops behind the Rhinos and send the fiends up the flanks. All of it moving as fast as freaking possible. If any Rhinos survive to get close enough, they attempt tank shocks on the gunline.

The problem is that "backfield disruption" becomes "within double tap range" on your opponent's turn.

The problem is that "backfield disruption" becomes "within double tap range" on your opponent's turn.

Often times yes. Hence the "some success" caveat. lol Still though, the hope is it gets something out of position or draws fire away from the advance. It's about presenting a lot threats at the same time that all need to be dealt with NOW. But yeah, still a uphill battle.

If you want to play Alpha Legion, You'd have to use the loyalist codex to even come close.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If you want to play Alpha Legion, You'd have to use the loyalist codex to even come close.

Depends if you're talking the newer kind, or the old Taliban cultist training type.

Minion of the chaos gods destroy him!
Seriously though its mostly down to what people in particular prefer, most of the time as long as the codex's are close match there will be supporter on both sides.

I really wanted to read all 5 pages of this, because the thread title was so absurd and I wanted to see my fellow Chaos Lords pummel this argument into submission, but I haven't seen the things that are really insulting be mentioned quiet yet (made it halfway through page 2. lol).

You want the absolute, most insulting thing to happen between Loyalist and Traitor? The discrepency in gear. That alone should tell you just what exactly GW thinks about the Chaos Marines.

Better yet, do a comparison to what Forgeworld thinks the Chaos Marines should have, and then put it against the current C: SM arsenal. There is no freaking comparison, not by a long shot.

Just the names of some of these items alone, smacks of someone who wanted to make the Chaos Space Marines die forever and ever, and shame anyone who ever thought of using them.

Case in point: Space Marines get Twin-Linked Bolters. Sounds fancy and hi tech, right? Well Chaos Marines get Combi-Bolters.

You seeing the language difference right there, in the standard rifle of both armies? Space Marines get these awesome, super science sounding TWIN LINKED boltgun. So it's like two boltguns in one and even better is that they sound like they'd shoot as one two. So this sounds like a boltgun that double-taps by default. Obviously a weapon you'd want to split someones skull open with.

Now the Combi-Bolter....Combi.,....we couldn't even use a full word to describe the bolter. Space Marines got two full, thought provoking, and possibly exhilerating words "TWIN LINKED..." and the gakky ol CSM's got... combi-bolters......gtfo.

But wait! What about the STORM BOLTER!!! OMG!! NOW THEY ADDED THE WORD "STORM" TO DESCRIBE YET ANOTHER STANDARD WEAPON IN THE SM ARSENAL! Except this weapon is so badass, it was made specifically for the badass SM Termies....

Chaos Termies?... combi......<---By the way, I really hate that word now because I don't read "combi" anymore. I read "bs." They were so damn lazy with the Chaos Terminators that they (in addition to stripping away the very necessary SS/TH combo) they said "Nah! Give them the "bs" Bolters and we'll make sure they can still charge and melee by just giving them Relentless. Gtfo again. GW you're making me sick now.

Let's also not forget about the Thunderfire Cannons, excessive air drop vehicles, the fact that Chaos can't even have a freaking PLASMA CANNON OR MULTI-MELTA YET WE FREAKING HAD THEM IN THE DAMN HERESY!!!

Seriously? What is the thought here? Oh, because time has passed, all of that awesome crap Chaos so lovingly maintained just self-destructed when they went to fight the Space Marines? And aren't groups like the freaking Red Corsairs pirating SPACE MARINE TECH!?

If GW wanted me to even pretend like they weren't the laziest, stoned bunch of greedy bastards on the planet, they'd look at Forgeworld for some inspiration. I know so far all of this seems petty, but it's more indicative of their frame of mind, and how truly hate filled they must be towards Chaos. I couldn't put together a more insulting armory, if I tried. What's next? CCW's get replaced with spoons and forks?

What I see in the Chaos Codex in comparison to every other army out there, is sheer contempt for their players, and that's as good as taking the money out of my hand and leaving a gak on my front porch, then leaving a note card that says, "Happy Birthday, RWA! We love you! Hope you have the best day ever! SMILES."

RAEG

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

Image removed by insaniak. Please don't make posts consisting of just an image, particularly when it is nothing to do with the topic.

Quoted from the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine codex
"Why collect a Chaos Space Marine Army?
There is something darkly fascinating about villains. Not the run-of-the-mill petty villains, but the big villains, the ones that plot universal domination and have the ability to see it through. These villains are just as resourceful, just as determined and just as capable as any hero but they also have faults and weaknesses that make them far more interesting. This is, I believe, the attraction of the Chaos Space Marines."

So there. We are the bad guys. They are the good guys. Its supposed to be a bad day when Chaos wins.

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Well, I know for a fact that ATSKNF is powerful and game-changing.

The sheer number of times I've broken Marines in close combat, only to have them negate being swept is heart-breaking, especially given how hard it is for me to break them in the first place, what with striking last unless I want to wound them on 5s or 6s.

I'm honestly thinking about starting a Chaos army, but doing Counts As C:SM. Would be fun to get a Warpsmith to be my Master of the Forge and run with six Hellbrutes, and not too expensive given the current DV prices. Probably cheaper than doing them with loyalist minis.

I think FNP(6+) alone is worth 2pts/model, given how it should pay for itself just by saving dudes. Having ATSKNF, Combat Squads and super-HQ bundled in on top of that is outstanding.

Bolter-Drill produces more hits than the equivalent points taken in extra models, and then has the Tank Hunter bundle on top. White Scar Bikes have a list of buffs as long as your arm...
It is a bit irritating to see these advantages played down so often. No they aren't as good as Bladestorm or having Markerlight available but they are bloody good value, and to have the whole package provided for such a small premium is more than a little grating for CSM.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Well, the true tragedy of idiots is that they don't know they're idiots.

Let us hope that the rumoured csm veteran supplement will address some of these issues about not being able to represent your legion on the tabletop (which I agree with) by applying decently costed (or ideally free with VOTLW) skills for CSM units.

Ideally of course they should be given out free as Legion Tactics like the SM get, but I doubt that will happen.

I haven't heard anything about upcoming Chaos supplements. Maybe because the first one sucked not enough people bought it so GW thought no one wanted further supplements? But this next supplement really needs to fix a lot of crap.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Because they are idiots.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Things worth noting:
Chaos Marines that fail morale are at a substantial disadvantage compared to loyalists and do not recieve a proportional discount or benefit(ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are easily worth more than 1ppm)

lol, amusingly a lot of people argue that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics suck and aren't worth a ppm.

And we call those people "Idiots".

And those people call you "misguided" and/or "wrong".

Because they are idiots.

And someone who dismisses people with other opinions that himself as "idiots" isn't? Come on. Plus, even if they're idiots, they're still right.

Dismissing someone for not seeing the value in 3 special rules for 1pt. isn't idiotic.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

And someone who dismisses people with other opinions that himself as "idiots" isn't?

Not if they're idiotic opinions.

Can we please stop throwing around the term "idiot".

Personally, I think ATSKNF is pretty good, but that comes from someone who doesn't use it and sees it instead used against her.

CSM are awful :/

 Melissia wrote:
Can we please stop throwing around the term "idiot".

Personally, I think ATSKNF is pretty good, but that comes from someone who doesn't use it and sees it instead used against her.

I'm with you, and I play an army that has it. Personally I feel like ATSKNF should be removed from the game, or significantly altered. 1) It gives you a benefit for losing morale tests in they get to regroup 3" and then can still move their full 6" and assault per normal. There should not be situations where failing something is a benefit. 2) It single-handedly makes assaulting worthless. It's already bad enough, but when the most ubiquitous army in the hobby has a rule that ignores the biggest downside to losing combat (sweeping advance) and makes one of the better USRs for assualting in Fear totally worthless, it's kind of dumb. Just from a how it plays perspective. Marines are hard enough to beat in assault anyway without a dedicated assault unit because the base statline for Space Marines make their troops better in a scrum than any other army's basic troops. No other race features Sv3+ troops, and no other army boasts basic troops with S4 T4 WS4. They don't win point for point because they lack model count, but IMO that's not much of a deterrant.

Making it so Space Marines were simply Stubborn ubiquitously rather than ATSKNF would be pretty awesome. And again, I play marines, dark angels specifically.

Meh, I'd prefer if Sisters got their unviersal Stubborn back.

Miss so many things from 3rd edition :/

What some people don't seem to get is that CSM are supposed to be awful compared to SM. This game is about forging a narrative and in that narrative there are good guys and bad guys and the bad guys are supposed to lose - that's their purpose for existing. That's why CSM don't have any good deployment options or transports - you're supposed to run across the board getting shot up by the heroes while looking bad and scary (oh no, here they come - there are too many of them!) until you finally reach them and get cinematically defeated in heroic one-on-one combat.

This codex was almost successful at achieving that, but then somebody went and put in the baledrake by mistake. Expect it to be fixed next edition (for a sneak peek of what to expect see Codex: Tyranids).

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
What some people don't seem to get is that CSM are supposed to be awful compared to SM. This game is about forging a narrative and in that narrative there are good guys and bad guys and the bad guys are supposed to lose - that's their purpose for existing. That's why CSM don't have any good deployment options or transports - you're supposed to run across the board getting shot up by the heroes while looking bad and scary (oh no, here they come - there are too many of them!) until you finally reach them and get cinematically defeated in heroic one-on-one combat.

This codex was almost successful at achieving that, but then somebody went and put in the baledrake by mistake. Expect it to be fixed next edition (for a sneak peek of what to expect see Codex: Tyranids).

I'm going to assume you're being facetious, but I have seen people argue that without irony and it depresses me

HAHHAHAH thats why eldar are so good right? Cause they are the good... oh wait. Nope.

Seriously though hades drakes are great AA albeit a lil overcosted AND you get extra cool points when you win for lack of cheese!

Eldar are supposed to be one of the heroes of the setting, actually, so that does make sense. >>

While Sisters represent the Imperium at its most evil, which is why we get shafted... wait, aren't anti-heroes supposed to be popular?