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You can pick before, after or during the heresy. I mean overall who was the nastiest f**ker out of all of them? Gonna go ahead and nominate Horus or Lorgar here.

XXXX

Night Haunter, easily. Easily. Lorgar was actually a bit sympathetic with legit motivations and in his mind, attempting to better humanity through the worship of true gods. Horus did go cuckoo, but that's because he was bloody possessed and manipulated by Erebus. Previously Horus was among the best Primarchs and a great person.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Night Haunter, easily. Easily. Lorgar was actually a bit sympathetic with legit motivations and in his mind, attempting to better humanity through the worship of true gods. Horus did go cuckoo, but that's because he was bloody possessed and manipulated by Erebus. Previously Horus was among the best Primarchs and a great person.

Yes I did rather forget that utterly psychopathic Demigod who seems to have confined himself he is batman. But seriously have you ever read Betrayer? Some of the atrocities Lorgar sanctions are beyond the nighthaunter. Also Horus' virus bombing was barbaric to the extreme, his own personal fighting style is geared around causing as much pain as possible. He was a controlled evil before. Over the course of the heresy he became...unrestrained.

XXXX

Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

SRSFACE wrote:
but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves.

I dunno, they craped out pixie dust onto Vulkan to make him one, Guilliman being a perpatoot is just the sort of asspull I could see them doing. Though it wouldn't be as bad I suppose, since Guilliman having miraculous healing powers already had some basis in the setting, even if only by rumor spread by pilgrims.

Ive got to put my vote on the Night Haunter. Just from his actions in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire. He amongst other things mentally broke down a primarch into a raving lunatic.

That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was.

Don't you think it's worse realizing you're fethed up and evil, but then continuing to do it anyway rather than doing what you've been engineered and educated to think is good?
Really though, Guilliman seemed to do good by the people, creating generally nice worlds to live in with trade and industry. I don't think there's a whole lot more "gusto" about than any of the other Primarchs except for the ones concerned with their own things, like Magnus.

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

 Brother Payne wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

Yeah, that joke got old a year after it started. Same with all the other Abaddon jokes, which started because the model sucked. The character meanwhile plays a mean game of chess and has pretty much crippled the Cadian Gate, although from what I've heard about the 13th Black Crusade, that could change considering its setting.

Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

except the ultramarines haven't been ineffectual. I think assuming the codex Astartes is some rock hard "how to fight a battle" manual is a mistake. I don't wanna derail this thread so I'm gonna start another.

sanguinus

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

It really depends on your definition of evil, two people could view the same action as good or evil as it's all down to perspective. I'd go with dorn as when he did evil he always washed his hands of it. In the last remembrancer he even doesn't blink at murdering an innocent friend of his

What is "evil" anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without "evil"there can be no "good",
So it must be good to be evil. Sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

He betrayed Sheba.

Sorry, wrong setting.

 Brother Payne wrote:
I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

I think it's morally wrong of you to think beliggerent, flippant bullying by way of being a codescending jerk is acceptable adult behavior, while we're on the subject of things we personally think that have nothing at all to do with this thread.

OK, if we have to define good and evil, how about this?

Good is acting in a selfless manner even when it may bring harm to yourself.

Evil is acting in a selfish manner even when it may bring harm to others.

Night Haunter for me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
OK, if we have to define good and evil, how about this?

Good is acting in a selfless manner even when it may bring harm to yourself.

Evil is acting in a selfish manner even when it may bring harm to others.

sanguinus then

Under the dumb new HH novel fluff probably Konrad Curze, which is tragic because the character's moral ambiguity was always a big part of him in the more well-written times of yore.

Otherwise, Fulgrim.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

Sanguinius? Whiny?

He was more heroic and good-hearted than Jesus (Not hyperbole).

"More good-hearted than Jesus (not hyperbole)

You should probably tone down the hyperbole, man. And if you're dead serious, maybe you should realize 40k is just a game/universe setting and saying things blatantly sacrilegious is patently offensive.

 Jimsolo wrote:
That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

That's a rather interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I can agree with it. Guilliman actively worked to make the worlds he brought into the Imperium better than they were for everyone.

My pick is probably Mortarion. All the traitor Primarchs turned from the Imperium and brought it into a bloody civil war. Only one of them didn't need some outside influence to do so.

I am not well read in all of the primarchs, but from what I have read, I would say Fulgrim is the most evil.

I would also say Sanguinius is the most heroic, and good primarch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

That's a rather interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I can agree with it. Guilliman actively worked to make the worlds he brought into the Imperium better than they were for everyone.

My pick is probably Mortarion. All the traitor Primarchs turned from the Imperium and brought it into a bloody civil war. Only one of them didn't need some outside influence to do so.

This also applies to Perturabo...

Mortarion and Perturabo turned on the emporer for literally no reason. Absolutely unjustifiable, at least the other traitor primarchs could give at worst a weak argument for turning against the imperium.

Read Angel Exterminatus.

SRSFACE wrote:
"More good-hearted than Jesus (not hyperbole)

You should probably tone down the hyperbole, man. And if you're dead serious, maybe you should realize 40k is just a game/universe setting and saying things blatantly sacrilegious is patently offensive.

I think it was a joke...

XXXX