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I'm trying to create a "Balanced" set of rules for Thunder Warriors, my buddies and I are trying to set up a homebrew campaign taking place on Terra, any help here would be hot.
(This is what we have so far)

(pic related, Thunder Warriors follow the same orginization as Pre-Heresy Imperial Army)

Warlord Traits: You may buy one of these traits after rolling for 75pts

1: Master Secutor: Your Warlord gains Fleet, Crusader and +1 initiative in cc

2: Master Samnite: Your Warlord gains SNP , +1 Toughness, +1 wound and always strikes at initiative 1 in cc

3: Master Provacator: Your Warlord may take any number of Forbidden Wargear

4: Master Cestus: Your Warlord replaces any CCW he has with a Chainfist that has the Concussive special rule and gains +1 atk

5: Master Arbelas: Your Warlord gains Infiltrate and his attacks become Poisoned (2+)

6: Master Andabate: You Warlord gains Shrouded and Stealth but may not fire any ranged weapons

The Warlords Head: Unless the Thunder Warrior player kills the enemy Warlord or if their OWN warlord dies, they can only at most draw the game.

USR: Thunder Warrior: Combines Adamantium Will, Furious Charge and confers Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)


Armory:

Special Issue Wargear:
Attack Bike 20pts
Jump Pack: 15pts
Camo Cloaks: 10points (Scout)
Siege Mantlet: 20pts
Melta bombs: 10pts
Master Crafted: 10pts
Tempest Forged Plate: 25pts 3+ Save (Fleet,Crusader)
Thunder Forged Plate: 15pts 3+ Save (Fleet)
Terran Forged (CCW): 5pts (+1 invul in CC, Replaces bolt pistol and grants +1atk if this is the second ccw)
Proto-Tactical Dreadnaught Armor: 40pts (2+ Save, IWND, Bulky or very bulky if already bulky, SNP).
Artificer Armor: 15pts
Combi-Weapons: 10pts
Thunder Mantle: 10pts (6+) Invul
Tonitrus bolt shells: 5pts (+1str to bolter)
Breacher Charge: 35pts
Chainfist: 25pts
Digital Lasers: 10pts
Cyber Familiar: 15pts
Archaeotech Melee Weapon: 40pts (Treat this as a Master Crafted Power weapon with the Strike Down and Rending Special rules in addition to whatever power weapon traits it may have, Replaces a ccw)

Forbidden Wargear: (only one item may be selected per Army.)
Shackles of Terra 50pts (+2 atks, EW)
The Tyrants End 75pts (2+ 3++ Re-rollable Invul)
A Warriors Calling 100pts (+2d6 inches to charge distance to all TW's within 24"s)
Helm of the Conqueror 100pts (Your deployment zone is increased 6 inches)
King Slayer 100pts (str +2 ap 2 Instant death, Fleshbane, Unwieldy, Master Crafted)
Throne Taker 50pts (Master Crafted AutoPistol: Str3 ap- Pistol:10 Rending. )

Vehicle Armory:
Armored Ceramite15pts
Auxiliary Drive 5pts
Extra Armor 5pts
Flare-Shield 20pts

Lords of War:

Arik Taranis: 450pts

WS:8 BS:4 S:6 T:7 W:6 I:4 A:7 LD:10 sv2+ 3++
Wargear: The Shackles of Terra, Tyrant's End, A Warrior's Calling, Helm of the Conqueror, King Slayer, Throne Taker

If Arik Taranis is Taken he must be your Warlord.

You may CHOOSE Arik Taranis's Warlord trait OR take the following Trait:

The First to be betrayed: If Arik Taranis wins a challenge against an Imperial Character, your army gains one additional Victory Point.

Special Rules: The Lightning Bearer,The Victor of Gaduaré, The Last Rider, The Butcher of Scandia, The Throne-slayer: Arik's statistics other than wounds may not be altered negatively, In a challenge Arik's 3++ becomes a 2++ and he may re-roll any failed to hit against the challenged model, Eternal Warrior, Thunder Warrior, Fearless, IWND, Very Bulky, Might of the First Born, FNP (4+).

HQ:

Thunder Lord: 150pts

WS:7 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:4 A:5 LD:10 2+ 6++
Wargear: Artificer armor, Thunder Mantle, Power Weapon, Bolter, Bolt Pistol

Special rules:Bulky, Thunder Warrior, Furious Charge

May exchange his Bolter for a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: free

May take option(s) from:
Special Issue Wargear
Forbidden Wargear

Tempest Forged Fabricator: 150pts

WS:4 BS:6 S:4 T:5 W:3 I:4 A:2 LD:10 2+ save 6++
Wargear: Artificer Armor, Thunder Mantle, PW, Archaeotech Pistol, Archaeotech Rifle(Str6 ap2 24" Rapid Fire)
May select option(s) from:
Special Issue Wargear
Forbidden Wargear

Rules: Bulky, Thunder Warrior, Master Frabricator: You May take Proto-Dreadnaught maniples as troop choices, Battle Smith, Technology Unleashed: Once per game during the Movement phase, a Tempest Forged Fabricator may forego his movement and attempt to unleash the full potential of a models weapon, on a roll of 3+ and you may increase the Str of the weapon by 2, the Range of the Weapon by 6" or the decrease AP value of a weapon by 1. (Note, you may not increase the range of a Melee weapon and these effects last until the end of the game)

Unblooded Champion: 60pts

WS:5 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:4 A:4 LD:9 6+ save
Wargear: Primitive Armor, Autogun

May take options from:
Special Issue Wargear

Special Rules: Thunder Warrior, Bulky

TROOPS:

Infantry Platoon 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Thunder Warrior Squads, 0-5 Unblooded, 0-3 Specialist Teams.

Platoon Command Squad:

Squad Size 3 (150pts)
WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:3 LD:9 3+ save (Platoon Commander)
WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W: I:4 A:2 LD:8 3+ save (Honor Guard)
Rules: Thunder Warrior, Counter Attack

Wargear: Power Armor, Power Weapon, Autogun, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak grenades
Any Honor Guard or Platoon Commander may take equipment form:
Special Issue Wargear

Any Honor Guard and/Or Platoon commander may exchange his Autogun for a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: Free

Thunder Warrior Squad:

Squad Size: 5-20 10pts each
WS:4 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Save:3+
Special Rules: Thunder Warrior

One Thunder Warrior may be upgraded to a Champion for 10pts (+1atk, +1LD)

Wargear: Autogun, Bolt Pistol,CCW, Frag And Krak Grenades

Any Thunder Warrior may exchange their Autogun for a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: 2pts each
One In Three Thunder Warriors may take one of the following:
Heavy Stubber: Free
Flamer 5pts
Rotor Cannon 5pts
Autocannon 10pts
Missile Launcher 15pts
Lascannon 20pts
Power Weapon 15pts

Tonitrus Bolt Carbine
Range 18" S:5 AP:4 Assault 1

The Unblooded:

Squad Size: 20-50 (5pts each)
WS:3 BS:2 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:7 Save:6+
Special Rules: Thunder Warrior

Wargear: Primitive Armor, AutoGun

Heavy Weapons team:

Squad size-5 (120pts)
WS:4 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 3+ save
Special rule: Thunder Warrior, Relentless

One Thunder Warrior may be upgraded to a Champion for 10pts (+1atk +1LD)

Wargear: Autocannon, Power Armor, Frag and Krak grenades

Each model may replace their autocannon with:
Heavy Flamer-Free
Heavy Stubber-Free
Rotor Cannon-Free
Lascannon-5pts
Multi-Melta-10pts
Missile Launcher-5pts

Provacator Maniple 5-20 models (30pts each)

WS:4 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:8 3+ 6++
Special rules: Thunder Warrior,

One Provacator may be upgraded to a Provacator Champion for 10pts (+1 Atk +1 LD)

Wargear: Power Armor, Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, Thunder Mantle

any model may takes options from special issue wargear

ELITES:

1st Company Platoon 1-3 Thunder Bearers, 0-2 Proto-Dreadnaught Maniple, 0-5 Veteran Thunder Warriors, 0-1 Arbelas Strike Team

Thunder Bearers:

Squad size: 1-20 (65pts each)
WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:3 LD:9 2+ save
Rules: Thunder Warrior, IWND, Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, Bulky, Might of the First Born: A challenged model must accept challenges issued by a model in this unit.

Wargear: Proto-Tactical Dreadnaught Armor, Assault Cannon, Power Weapon
Any Thunder Bearer may swap their Proto-Tactical Dreadnaught Armor and Assault cannon for Tempest Forged Plate, Archaeotech Power weapon and a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: Free

Any Thunder bearer may take equipment from:
Special Issue Wargear

Proto-Dreadnaught Maniple: 1-3 (150pts each)

WS:5 BS:4 S:7 Front:13 Sides:13 Rear:11 I:4 A:1 HP:3

Wargear: Dreadnaught CCW, Twin-Linked autocannon, SNP

May be upgraded to an Entombed Champion for 20 pts +1atk, +1Initiative
-may take options from the vehicle armory

May replace its autocannon with one of the following:

Twin Linked Heavy Bolter-free
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer-free
Twin Linked Magna Melta-25pts
Twin Linked Plasma Cannon-25pts
Twin Linked Lascannon-30pts

USR: Thunder Warrior, Rampage

Veteran Thunder Warriors: 5-20 models 40pts each

WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:3 LD:9

Special Rules: Thunder Warrior, Veterans of the First War: After deployment, this model may choose to gain Split Fire, Rampage, Or Hatred(Everything) for the rest of the game,

Wargear: Power Armor, PW, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Any model may replace his Bolter for:
Flamer: 5pts
Heavy Bolter: 5pts
Auto Cannon: 10pts
Las Cannon: 20pts

Any model may take options from:
Special Issue Wargear

Arbelas Strike Team:

Squad size-1-10 (65pts each)
WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:8 3+ save
Special rule: Thunder Warrior, Infiltrate, Move Through cover, Death is assured: once per game nominate a character or vehicle, for the rest of the game this squad may re-roll failed attempts to hit following the standard rules for re-rolling die.)

One Arbelas may be upgraded to an Arbelas Champion for (15pts) (+1atk +1LD)

Wargear: Power Armor, Sniper Rifle, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades

Any model may swap their Sniper Rifle for a
Lascannon 20pts
Plasma Cannon 30pts

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Squadron (See Codex Imperial Guard)



Malcador Heavy Assault Tank

Malcador: 275 pts
Malcador Annihilator: 305pts
Malcador Defender: 315 pts

BS:4 Front:13 Sides:13 Rear:12 SP:2
Special Rules: Super Heavy Vehicle, Tank, Fast

May take options from the Vehicle Armory

Wargear: Traverse Mounted Battle Cannon (Malcador), Hull-Mounted Auto-Cannon, Two Sponson mounted Heavy Stubbers, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers
A Malcador Assault Tank may exchange its Battle Cannon for a Twin-Linked Lascannon: FREE
A Malcador Assault Tank may exchange its hull-mounted Auto-Cannon for a Demolisher Cannon: 25pts
A Malcador Assault Tank may upgrade its two sponson weapons to two of the following:
Heavy Bolters: 10pts
Heavy Flamers: 10pts
Auto-Cannons: 20pts
Las-Cannons: 30pts
A Malcador Assault Tank may take one of the following pintle mounted weapons:
Twin-Linked Bolter: 5pts
Heavy Stubber: 5pts
Combi-Weapon: 10pts
Heavy Flamer: 15pts

Samnite Maniple 1-5 (85 pts each)

WS:4 BS:4 S:5 T:6 W:3 I:1 A:2 LD:9 2+ 4++
Special Rules:Thunder Warrior, SNP, Very Bulky

One Samnite may be upgraded to a Samnite Champion for 30pts (+1atk +1LD +1W)

Wargear: Samnite plate: +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, always strikes at initiative 1, SNP, Power Fist, Auto-Cannon
May Replace their Auto-Cannon and power fist with:
Twin-Linked Lascannon: 15pts
Twin-Linked Multi-Melta: 10pts
Twin-Linked Plasma Cannon: 10pts
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon: 5pts
Twin-Linked Reaper Auto-Cannon: FREE
Twin-Linked Rotor-gun: FREE

May Replace their Auto-Cannon with:
Lascannon: 20pts
Multi-Melta: 15pts
Plasma Cannon: 15pts
Assault Canon: 10pts
Reaper Autocannon: 5pts
Rotor-gun: FREE

May take options from Special Issue Wargear

Spartan Assault Tank:

300pts
BS:4 Front:14 Side:14 Rear:14 HP:5
Wargear: Two Sponsoon mounted quad Lascannon, Hull Mounted Twin-linked Autocannon, Search Light, Smoke Launcher, Extra Armor
Transport Capacity: 25models
Access points: One at the front and two on each side.

May take options from:
Vehicle Armory

Rules: Assault Vehicle

Fast Attack:

Storm Eagle Assault Carrier: 210pts

BS:4 Front:12 Side:12 Rear:12 HP:4
Wargear: A storm eagle may exchange it's Twin-Linked heay bolter for:
Twin-Linked Multi Melta 15pts
Single Missile Launcher

A Storm Eagle may take one of the following upgrades:
Exchange it's for Tempest rockets for four Hellstrike missiles 20pts
Exchange it's four Tempest rockets for Twin-Linked Lascannon 40pts

May take options from the Vehicle Armory

Special Rules: Deep Strike, Assault Vehicle

Secutor Maniple 1-10 (70pts each)

WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:6 A:3 LD:9 3+ save
Special rules: Thunder Warrior, Fleet, Crusader, Duelists: Gain +1 atk in cc for each point of initiative higher

One Secutor may be upgraded to a Secutor Champion for 20pts (+2tks +1LD)

Wargear: Archaeotech Melee Weapon, Secutor Plate: +2 initiative on the charge 5+ Invul in cc, Terran Forged CCW

May take options from Special Issue wargear

Cestus Maniple 1-10 (35pts each)

WS:5 BS:4 S:5 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:3 LD:9 3+
Special rules: Thunder Warrior, Jump Infantry, Fleet

One Cestus may be upgraded to a Cestus Champion for 15 pts (+1atk +1LD)

Wargear: Thunder forged plate, Jump pack, Cestus Pattern Chainfist (Concussive), Bolt Pistol

May take options from special issue wargear

Dedicated Transports: Any infantry unit may take a dedicated transport

Land Raider....................................................................190 points (See Betrayal or Massacre Mechanicum lists)

Chimera Armoured Transport........................................55 points (see codex Imperial Guard)

Rhino......................................................................................35 points (see codex SM)

Well rules are kinda balanced but since when thunder warriors are stronger than normal astartes?

Thunder Warriors have always been superior to the Astartes when it comes to combat.

Because the prototype is always better than the massed produced version, I guess?

Thunder warriors should be SNP as the armor was unpowered and restrictive around the legs. They relied on upper body strength so the chest and arms received greater power from the armor so s5 is correct. However thunder armor was really noisy so I'd put in a rule that prevents them from benifiting from stealth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bolter tech evolved from single shot high caliber to lower caliber rapid fire used by space marines. Maybe tone down rate of fire. Worth also noting that they were built for cc rather than ranged warfare so less heavy ranged weapons and more power weapons and thunder hammers. Think less pre ultramarnes and more pre black templar an your on the right course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think bolt pistols were beyond these guys as their bolters were about as big as your average human to account for the size of the bullet. That should not fit in a pistol

 Blackskull wrote:
Thunder warriors should be SNP as the armor was unpowered and restrictive around the legs. They relied on upper body strength so the chest and arms received greater power from the armor so s5 is correct. However thunder armor was really noisy so I'd put in a rule that prevents them from benifiting from stealth.

From what I have read the legs were unpowered yes, but it didn't slow the Thunder Warriors down given their strength, they where stronger than Astartes even without their plate.

Not to mention that Astartes plate is powered and enhances the strength of the wearer, so +1S is hardly justified just because of their armor.

Where have you read that mk1 power armor was noisy? It uses the same power pack as all the other mks, what could possibly make it "Noisy"?

Standard plate enhances strength yes but its primary role is to make the armor have no negative effects on the wearer. Thunder armor was made to maximise strength as much as possible its noiser due to the more powerful servos in the arm and because the legs clank a lot as they aren't servo assisted.

power supply has no effect on sound you are correct.

Although the legs were unpowered they were still armored tightly which did restrict movement so I reccomended SNP instead of relentless to represent this.

Also I'd give a points cut thunderwolf cavalry costs 50 points and has a similar ws4 bs4 s5 t5 i4 a2 statline except they are calvery and have 2 wounds.

Lexicanium is my scource along with common sense

Ultimately though its your party so field what you like its all suggestions. 40 points each seems fairer if they get SNP instead of relentless to merit the cut.

Magerdanu wrote:
Thunder Warriors have always been superior to the Astartes when it comes to combat.

Really? Would this 'always' actually be since some fairly recent HH book? Why the hell would Astartes even been created if the Thunder Warriors were superior?

I didnt spot the w2 and from a gameplay perspective I disapprove keep to 1. Also consider t4 they were stronger than space marnies but Internal they had issues even when healthy they suffered from organ failure as similar difficulties.

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 LD:8 Save:3+
Heavy Armour: This model cannot run.

There. Bolter and grenades as standard, about ten points per model.

 Crimson wrote:

Magerdanu wrote:
Thunder Warriors have always been superior to the Astartes when it comes to combat.

Really? Would this 'always' actually be since some fairly recent HH book? Why the hell would Astartes even been created if the Thunder Warriors were superior?

Thunder warriors didnt live very long. on Terra you had plenty of men

in space on 100 year crusades you didn't want half your army dieing before you got there as you can't replace them fast enough

So he made space Marnie's who were long lived and rather durable internally and mentaly. Patching all the weaknesses of thunder warriors in a slightly worse package however cause they keep you can have huge numbers of space marines so you outnumber your enemies.

From what I learnt about the Thunder Warriors, they seem to be a "hyper-prototype" to the Astartes. Meaning, they were more powerful in the short term, but they "burnt" at a much faster rate and were rather unstable (more so than an average Space Marine, at least).

WS4 BS4 S5 T4 W1 A2 I4 LD 7 sv +3

Torontus bolter range 18 S5 ap 4 heavy 2
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Thunder armor

Rules
SNP
Fearless
Adamantum will
You won't escape (can sweeping advance ,also has crusader)







Automatically Appended Next Post:
40 pts per model unit size 1- 10

"Although the legs were unpowered they were still armored tightly which did restrict movement so I reccomended SNP instead of relentless to represent this."

Could you cite sources? I haven't seen anywhere that it inhibited their movement.


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 Crimson wrote:

Magerdanu wrote:
Thunder Warriors have always been superior to the Astartes when it comes to combat.

Really? Would this 'always' actually be since some fairly recent HH book? Why the hell would Astartes even been created if the Thunder Warriors were superior?

Horus Heresy Betrayal backs up this claim as well, this isn't an argument about canon, 4-5 warhounds where killed per Thunder Warrior during a revolt on a prison planet.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
WS4 BS4 S5 T4 W1 A2 I4 LD 7 sv +3

Torontus bolter range 18 S5 ap 4 heavy 2
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Thunder armor

Rules
SNP
Fearless
Adamantum will
You won't escape (can sweeping advance ,also has crusader)

For starters, they are significantly more resilient than space marines, they weren't fearless and where just as capable of breaking as any other soldier, having SNP while giving them crusader doesn't make any sense, and I did factor in their genetic instabilities, it wouldn't reduce their toughness in combat, just their longevity, which is entirely different than surviving wounds.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
40 pts per model unit size 1- 10

Magerdanu wrote:

Horus Heresy Betrayal backs up this claim as well, this isn't an argument about canon, 4-5 warhounds where killed per Thunder Warrior during a revolt on a prison planet.

What warhounds?

I assume he meant War Hounds, that is, World Eaters before their name change, rather than Warhound Titans.

The latter seems unlikely.

 Crimson wrote:

Magerdanu wrote:

Horus Heresy Betrayal backs up this claim as well, this isn't an argument about canon, 4-5 warhounds where killed per Thunder Warrior during a revolt on a prison planet.

What warhounds?

the Terran legion, before they became the World Eaters they where experts at assaulting enemy positions and right before the Great Crusade where tasked with putting down a revolt of Thunder Warriors on a prison planet, the operation took 5 hours, the Imperal Army regiments sent to support them arrived too late and where stuck with the grisly duty of cleaning up. The Thunder Warriors where slain to a man but for each of their number slain they took 4-5 FULLY EQUIPPED Astartes.

I certainly hope you don't plan on insulting Forgeworlds canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I assume he meant War Hounds, that is, World Eaters before their name change, rather than Warhound Titans.

The latter seems unlikely.

Yeah sorry, It was War Hounds prior to their change to World Eaters.

I questioned notion that Thunder Warriors have 'always' been superior to Astartes, and it still seems that it is fairly recent development. FW is obviously taking cues from BL for their HH stuff (which is unfortunate if you ask me, but carry on.)

 Crimson wrote:
I questioned notion that Thunder Warriors have 'always' been superior to Astartes, and it still seems that it is fairly recent development. FW is obviously taking cues from BL for their HH stuff (which is unfortunate if you ask me, but carry on.)

There wasn't any substantial lore based on them until this point. Given the Unifcation wars where arguably some of the most intense wars fought during the Great Crusade era, it only makes sense that they would be more military oriented, Astartes where always supposed to be integrated into society once the galaxy was conquered by humanity, different tools for different jobs amigo.

On the topic of the HH novels, its lore, I don't know what else you could ask for tbh, they are expanding the plot by filling in the holes first, just because every book has the potential to turn the war doesn't reduce the quality of the story telling, sure it could be done better, I think that in order for 40k to ever progress there has to be some closure from the HH, followed by a lining up of events that result in the war at the end of time, it could be a really special moment for all the characters from those novels to get a shout out as the ranks of the Emperors finest gather for the end times.

 Magerdanu wrote:

the Terran legion, before they became the World Eaters they where experts at assaulting enemy positions and right before the Great Crusade where tasked with putting down a revolt of Thunder Warriors on a prison planet, the operation took 5 hours, the Imperal Army regiments sent to support them arrived too late and where stuck with the grisly duty of cleaning up. The Thunder Warriors where slain to a man but for each of their number slain they took 4-5 FULLY EQUIPPED Astartes.

It actually implies three or four, and the Thunder Warriors were equipped too (it specifically mentions their armours) and they were in the control of the colony; the defender will have an advantage, especially if he knows the terrain. Thunder Warriors were making a last stand, they knew they had to fight or die, so they were sure to sell their lives dearly. And lets not forget those three million rebels that fought on their side. Nothing in that text decisively proves that TW were more powerful than the Astartes.

 Crimson wrote:

 Magerdanu wrote:

the Terran legion, before they became the World Eaters they where experts at assaulting enemy positions and right before the Great Crusade where tasked with putting down a revolt of Thunder Warriors on a prison planet, the operation took 5 hours, the Imperal Army regiments sent to support them arrived too late and where stuck with the grisly duty of cleaning up. The Thunder Warriors where slain to a man but for each of their number slain they took 4-5 FULLY EQUIPPED Astartes.

It actually implies three or four, and the Thunder Warriors were equipped too (it specifically mentions their armours) and they were in the control of the colony; the defender will have an advantage, especially if he knows the terrain. Thunder Warriors were making a last stand, they knew they had to fight or die, so they were sure to sell their lives dearly. And lets not forget those three million rebels that fought on their side. Nothing in that text decisively proves that TW were more powerful than the Astartes.

Go check the Lexicanum. Oh, and nothing decisively proves that they where more powerful except every time they are mentioned lol. Think what you will though.

 Magerdanu wrote:

Go check the Lexicanum. Oh, and nothing decisively proves that they where more powerful except every time they are mentioned lol. Think what you will though.

I checked the actual book, Lexicanum is wrong.

Then you do understand that combat wise they are better than Astartes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Magerdanu wrote:

Go check the Lexicanum. Oh, and nothing decisively proves that they where more powerful except every time they are mentioned lol. Think what you will though.

I checked the actual book, Lexicanum is wrong.

I would really like to get the thread back on track though, do you have any opinions on balance?

 Magerdanu wrote:
Then you do understand that combat wise they are better than Astartes?

No not really. Though I can see why one might interpret that story that way.

I would really like to get the thread back on track though, do you have any opinions on balance?

Even though if one believed that they were more powerful than marines, that statline is just too much. In 40K one point jump in S or T is a big deal. Orcs are huge and strong, and they still are only S3. Give them S and T 4, and maybe furious charge if you want represent their strength in close combat. Furthermore, two wounds is just too much for normal infantry, they don't need that. Nor they need relentless. And what with those bolters? Why can't they use regular bolters, and why are these amazing superbolters no longer in use? If you wan't a powerful bolt carbine, make it 18" assault 1 gun that fires heavy bolter shells. Also, how could Emperor equip all his Thunder Warriors with power weapons, when he was a mere warlord on Earth, but not equip all Astartes with them when he had resources of a galactic empire in his disposal? Power weapons have never been common. Make it one in five or one in three. As for the random death rule, that's just annoying, you would always have excess models you never get to use as they die before the turn one.

 Crimson wrote:

 Magerdanu wrote:
Then you do understand that combat wise they are better than Astartes?

No not really. Though I can see why one might interpret that story that way.

I would really like to get the thread back on track though, do you have any opinions on balance?

Even though if one believed that they were more powerful than marines, that statline is just too much. In 40K one point jump in S or T is a big deal. Orcs are huge and strong, and they still are only S3. Give them S and T 4, and maybe furious charge if you want represent their strength in close combat. Furthermore, two wounds is just too much for normal infantry, they don't need that. Nor they need relentless. And what with those bolters? Why can't they use regular bolters, and why are these amazing superbolters no longer in use? If you wan't a powerful bolt carbine, make it 18" assault 1 gun that fires heavy bolter shells. Also, how could Emperor equip all his Thunder Warriors with power weapons, when he was a mere warlord on Earth, but not equip all Astartes with them when he had resources of a galactic empire in his disposal? Power weapons have never been common. Make it one in five or one in three. As for the random death rule, that's just annoying, you would always have excess models you never get to use as they die before the turn one.

Rough draft for me?

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Save:3+
Special Rules: Furious Charge, Adamantium Will
Wargear: Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag And Krak Grenades

Any Thunder Warrior may exchange their Bolter for a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: free
Any Thunder Warrior may take a chainsword: 2pts/ model
One In Three Thunder Warriors may take one of the following:
Flamer 5pts
Heavy Bolter 5pts
Autocannon 10pts
Missile Launcher 15pts
Lascannon 20pts
Power Weapon 15pts

Tonitrus Bolt Carbine
Range 18" S:5 AP:4 Assault 1

Thunder Warriors are physically stronger then a marine but significantly inferior in regards to mental stability.

A Thunder Warrior was a blunt instrument that was only capable of killing and could never survive in peace time without dire consequences for the population. They were savage violent psychotic murders manufactured by the Emperor to reclaim Terra.

The mordern marine is vastly superior mentally and if everything had gone smoothly integrated into humanity normally and been able to function in peace time (think how the Salamanders are local leaders and interact positively with their worlds population)

However, Thunder Warriors were never meant to live beyond the unification wars due to their violent temperament. One of the safe guards was a very short life span as a means as a safety mechanism just in case they went crazy and turned (a likely scenario given how unbalanced these guys were)

You are right that a mordern marine is superior in mental construct but is still physically weaker as a soldier and in a 1 vs 1 battle a Thunder Warrior would turn a marine into paste.

As far as stats that are more table top balanced I would go with:

WS 4 BS 4 S4 T4 I4 W1 A1 LD8 SV3+

Feel no pain, rage, counter attack, fearless, furious charge.

Large bore bolt pistol S 5 AP 4 pistol and a power weapon. Frag and krack grenades.

Standard marine stats keep them more balanced and the USR's add the fluffly killing ability.

 Crimson wrote:
WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Save:3+
Special Rules: Furious Charge, Adamantium Will
Wargear: Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag And Krak Grenades

Any Thunder Warrior may exchange their Bolter for a Tonitrus Bolt Carbine: free
Any Thunder Warrior may take a chainsword: 2pts/ model
One In Three Thunder Warriors may take one of the following:
Flamer 5pts
Heavy Bolter 5pts
Autocannon 10pts
Missile Launcher 15pts
Lascannon 20pts
Power Weapon 15pts

Tonitrus Bolt Carbine
Range 18" S:5 AP:4 Assault 1

How do you explain them being tougher and Stronger than Marines?

And what do you value each model at?

 Magerdanu wrote:

How do you explain them being tougher and Stronger than Marines?

They're stronger in assault when it matters. And remember that both an Orc boy an Tau Firewarrior are S3, the system just has no granularity to model small differences in capability; T4 is good enough.

And what do you value each model at?

About 16 points?

 Crimson wrote:

 Magerdanu wrote:

How do you explain them being tougher and Stronger than Marines?

They're stronger in assault when it matters. And remember that both an Orc boy an Tau Firewarrior are S3, the system just has no granularity to model small differences in capability; T4 is good enough.

And what do you value each model at?

About 16 points?

How close do you think they are to reaching that S5 T5? Do you think that perhaps the elites could use the original statline