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One of the best pieces of evidence for the Emperor's awesomeness is that he created the Primarchs. On the other hand, in light of the HH, this could also be seen as solid evidence that the Emperor didn't know what the hell he was doing. I tend to think the Emperor made the Primarchs, knowing full well it would result in the HH, to distract the Ruinous Powers while he built the Golden Throne/human webway. That's one conspiracy and it's plausiblish.

But I have been thinking about something more radical. What do really know about this Emperor guy? (Answer: Not Even His Name.) Aside from the Emperor's own claims, we don't really have any evidence that he actually created the Primarchs. What if the Emperor himself was actually one of the two missing Primarchs?That would put a different spin on things, no?

Like the title says, this is completely unfounded speculation. Nothing in any material published by GW or any of its licensees in any way even hints at such a possibility, so far as I am aware. But it could make for an interesting what-if discussion. I mean, think about it: is there any reason to believe the Emperor could have created the Primarchs? Even regarding his psychic power, might it not be possible that Magnus was just as powerful or just a shade less powerful or that any power differential was really caused by something else -- like Magnus lacking some development ... or like the Emperor eating the other missing Primarch's brain to attain psychic power level over 9000.

Or maybe the emperor exists because the orks think he does... (sorry)

Just as much evidence for that one, TBH.

Manchu wrote:
Just as much evidence for that one, TBH.

It was not meant to be mean in anyway. Just a joke. I know nothing about 40k lore overall lol. I couldnt name a single primarch or anything

But this is the cool part of the hobby, speculation and creating the story your way.

There is"official" lore on how the emperor came into being. Some stuff about shamans pooling their collective consciousness. Check the wiki.

Nah, I fully acknowledge this is a bizarre notion. What is even more bizarre, I think, is that there doesn't seem to be any material to definitively disprove it.

Now, that's also true of the ork thing, of course. Nowhere does it say, "the Emperor is not a figment of the greenskins' imagination" so far as I have read.

But of course the ork thing is much less interesting in its implication. If the Emperor didn't create the Primarchs, then who did? Who even could? When you start to think about that question, coming up with what kind of being could make Primarchs, you start to wonder ... has the Emperor demonstrated the ability to do that? And if he actually couldn't do it, then it's reasonable that he himself is most probably also a Primarch.

Now, imagine if that was true and Horus's vision was premised on that truth. The HH would make much more sense, even if Horus only slowly realized what's up.

And, on that note, even if the Emperor actually did create the Primarchs, this conspiracy theory would make sense as something CSM think. I mean, what do they mean by "False Emperor" anyway?

It falls apart on its face because we know, and are provided, with a time-frame of the creation of the Primarchs. We are also provided with information that has the Emperor moving through the history of mankind for a very, very long time (like, all of it).

We also did not have any other Primarchs present during the Unification Wars on Terra that saw the Emperor's rise to power in the current era. The Primarchs all recognized one another as brothers, and yet recognized (in some cases automatically) the Emperor as their father.

The Emperor defeated either a full-blown C'Tan, or a C'Tan shard (depending on the edition you wish to choose) on Earth, armed with an iron sword and a horse, that he then dragged to Mars.... in the Middle Ages.

We may not know much about the Emperor's personal details, other than he was born in the Near East, probably Turkey, had siblings who were not particularly special, had parents of no particular importance outside of giving birth to the God-Emperor of Mankind, and may or may not have fathered hundreds of his own immortal children during his extremely long life, but we know enough to say that he is definitely not a Lost Primarch.

For all we know the horus heresy could of been horus getting angry at daddy because he got gipped during a white elephant gift party.

I am not joking when I say that. The universe is the perfect example of unreliable narrator.

BrotherVord wrote:
There is"official" lore on how the emperor came into being. Some stuff about shamans pooling their collective consciousness. Check the wiki.

Has the shaman thing actually appeared anywhere outside of the RoC books? All that star child and sensei stuff doesn't strike me as current.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am not joking when I say that. The universe is the perfect example of unreliable narrator.

With the HH novel series, that is no longer so true.

 Psienesis wrote:
we know, and are provided, with a time-frame of the creation of the Primarchs. We are also provided with information that has the Emperor moving through the history of mankind for a very, very long time (like, all of it).

Ask yourself, who makes these claims?

 Psienesis wrote:
We also did not have any other Primarchs present during the Unification Wars on Terra that saw the Emperor's rise to power in the current era.

They could have already been scattered by then. None of the timeline information is actually well-established/all such claims are obviously biased claims (see above).

 Psienesis wrote:
The Primarchs all recognized one another as brothers, and yet recognized (in some cases automatically) the Emperor as their father.

Jedi Mind Trick on the Emperor's part + Wishful Thinking on the Primarchs' parts

Manchu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am not joking when I say that. The universe is the perfect example of unreliable narrator.

With the HH novel series, that is no longer so true.

Eh I could see your point, but most people point to Black Liby not being actual canon due to that one interview.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eh I could see your point, but most people point to Black Liby not being actual canon due to that one interview.

If by "most people," you mean "Lynata over and over and over" then sure "most people" say that. The truth is, GW avoids establishing any kind of canon to keep their licensing and product development flexible. A novel series, however, requires continuity.

Except we have several threads that indicate that BL is not so good with the continuity.

And it doesn't matter if the Starchild, Sensei and history of the God-Emperor of Mankind is "old" if there is no later fluff that specifically contradicts it. It's the information that was provided to us and remains "current" until something says it isn't.

I am unaware of anything that says none of that is true, only that the game itself has focused less on those things and more on other things. That does not make those original books untrue.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except we have several threads that indicate that BL is not so good with the continuity.

All that means is that they make mistakes, not that they intend to make mistakes or that they don't care if they make mistakes or that there are no such thing as mistakes.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's the information that was provided to us and remains "current" until something says it isn't.

As reasonable as that may be, it is of course merely your own personal rule. It has no more or less relevance than any other personal rule; for example, that the RoC-era of fluff has been superseded by preponderance. I mean, we can make up any rules on this.

But that's a dry hole.

Let's get back to the topic with a thought experiment.

Assume for a moment that Emperor did not create the Primarchs. What kind of being could do so?

Gad.

Wait, no...

Ditka.

That's generally been my sentiment, as well.

But what is so special about Primarch's that it would take a god-like being to create them?

And assuming it would take a god-like being to create them, do we have any evidence that the Emperor is such a being?

What makes a god a god?

I mean, not Ditka. We know what makes Ditka Ditka.

In the Thousand Sons novel, Magnus discussed how he communed with the Emperor whilst he was still in the birthing chamber. Later, he still communicated with him as the Emperor began his search for this lost sons. Did he not?

That shows that an incredibly psychically powerful being created the Primarchs.

Now, is the Emperor really a Primarch? What is the Emperor? That's an interesting thought. What is a Primarch, other than a powerful and gifted individual. Is the Emperor merely the first amongst "equals?" Hard to say, depending on how fuzzy that line is between the Emperor and a Chaos-Enhanced Horus.

Maybe it was a scientist? Luna moon had alot of interesting things, including the luna labs. It makes you wonder why the emperor conquered terra and what did he do with all the smart people?

 Psienesis wrote:
What makes a god a god?

What indeed? Equivocating about the meaning of godhood in this context nicely supports the idea that the Emperor might "only" be a "mere" Primarch.

But to get a bit deeper into things, the chief distinction between the Emperor and the Primarchs as traditionally conceived is that the Emperor can create Primarchs but Primarchs cannot create Primarchs. (I guess there's also the matter of the astronomicon but since we have no idea how that works at all, and given that Magnus might have been able to do it, whatever it is, we'll leave it to the side.) Given that the Primarchs are already superior to normal humans by many magnitudes in almost every way, what exactly is the "something more" the Emperor possesses?

Approaching the question from another perspective, is there any other being in the 40k setting that could create a Primarch?

 kronk wrote:
In the Thousand Sons novel, Magnus discussed how he communed with the Emperor whilst he was still in the birthing chamber. Later, he still communicated with him as the Emperor began his search for this lost sons. Did he not?

The second part is immaterial but the first, about the "birthing chamber" chit chat, could that not be explained by a big brother/little brother distinction? ... assuming of course the memory is even real.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It makes you wonder why the emperor conquered terra and what did he do with all the smart people?

This has a lot to do with politics, given the Great Crusade was a re-conquest. The Emperor's claim to authority over humanity beyond the Solar System is founded on his claims to authority on Terra and Mars.

I like my bogus but fun conspiracy theory that the solar system in the first HH novel is, in fact ours, and the terra of 40k is not actual Earth (I know this isn't true, but if you want to go truly 'grim dark', everything based on a lie would pretty grim dark it up).

Now you could REALLY get into the Emperor not actually being 'the Emperor'.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
Ithe solar system in the first HH novel is, in fact ours

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
and the terra of 40k is not actual Earth

So if Terra is a planet in the Solar System but it's not Earth, and Mars is accounted for, then what planet are you suggesting Terra is?

Manchu wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
Ithe solar system in the first HH novel is, in fact ours

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
and the terra of 40k is not actual Earth

So if Terra is a planet in the Solar System but it's not Earth, and Mars is accounted for, then what planet are you suggesting Earth is?

No, for a fun conspiracy, Mars and Terra are not actually our 'Mars and Terra', but some other solar system in the galaxy is. Now 'the Emperor' on his throne is a total liar and bamboozled the galaxy into believing that they should all fight and die for the wrong planet and the wrong people. (I know this isn't true, but it sure would be fun, in the same vein as your original post). This would mean a different 'Emperor' could have created the primarchs and that our 'Emperor' is one of them (or at least not our Emperor). He just landed on the right planet to screw everybody over (man this sounds more and more like a Tzeentch plot)

Dun dun dun....

I don't see any reason why the Primarchs needed to be created by any super-superior being. There's nothing about them that actually couldn't be the result of some big research program. A bunch of scientists working on a project to create a human 2.0. The test subjects could all have been abducted and the story continues from there. In fact, isn't that more or less the actual intended origin of the Primarchs? The Emperor isn't supposed to have created them by waving his hands around, is he? He researched, experimented, etc. I doubt he was alone in all this and there weren't large, well-staffed labs, right? The emperor is basically 'chief scientist', no? With this context you might easily give them emperor a more background role, or even none at all.

Also, I'm surprised no-one has raised the idea of AIs. You had them in the Dark Age of Technology. Could they not have experimented with and on humans?

The IoM is just a tool for Tzeentch in his schemes against the other Chaos gods
The Emperor is actually an Alpha Legion operative and worships Tzeentch.
The 'traitor' primarchs were actually loyal ones but found out the truth about the Emperor and tried to dethrone him.
However Tzeentch's tricks and sorcery made it appear like the 'traitors' were the ones corrupted by Chaos and so the loyalist primarchs turned on their brothers.

knas ser wrote:
There's nothing about them that actually couldn't be the result of some big research program.

I believe they were created through a mix of science and sorcery. And maybe involved the help of the Ruinous Powers. And their creation couldn't be repeated.

So, seems like it takes more than a huge R&D budget to make Primarchs.

 Manchu wrote:

knas ser wrote:
There's nothing about them that actually couldn't be the result of some big research program.

I believe they were created through a mix of science and sorcery. And maybe involved the help of the Ruinous Powers. And their creation couldn't be repeated.

So, seems like it takes more than a huge R&D budget to make Primarchs.

Hmmm. Surely the Emperor did not intend for the Ruinous Powers to be an integral part of their creation. So presumably he at least thought they could be made without requiring the Ruinous Powers. I figured any involvement by the Big Four was destructive meddling, not necessary help with the process. No?

Didn't know about sorcery being involved. Bit of psychic powers, perhaps, but I thought primarily they were the products of advanced technology.

Science allows for repeatable results. If the Primarchs were purely the product of science then the Emperor could have made armies of them barring a lack of resources. And since this guy had all the resources of the Solar System at his disposal, I doubt lack of resources was the issue.

The powers of Chaos did help the Emperor in creating the Primarchs, was that not one of the reasons they stole them away? (As they felt the Emperor was tricking or attempting to trick them?)

The only thing about this theory would be that the other Primarchs seem to have knowledge of their two missing Brothers. I don't know how much of it is first hand, or whether it has all come from the Emperor himself.

I could see the Emperor creating for himself a Primarch like body that he transfered his consciousness into before creating the rest. It would explain how he had walked the Earth for thousands of years prior to becoming a giant.

 Manchu wrote:
Science allows for repeatable results. If the Primarchs were purely the product of science then the Emperor could have made armies of them barring a lack of resources. And since this guy had all the resources of the Solar System at his disposal, I doubt lack of resources was the issue.

Just because you could do something doesn't mean you'd want to. For a start, if your goal is to protect humanity, creating an entire race of replacements is probably not a good first step. Maybe he just wanted a small number. Secondly, he might want to have limited the number to avoid them all getting together and seizing power (both from him and to rule over humanity). Finally, we don't know what the long-term plans were either way because they were interrupted by Chaos stealing away the babies. Science may give you repeatable results, but he never even got to finish the first experiment. It was interrupted before he could see his initial test subjects matured! What was he going to do? Sit at home and make more for Chaos to steal away? No - the moment that happened he had a new Number One priority to follow up on: find and retrieve!

As an argument that Chaos was necessary to create the Primarchs, or even that "Sorcery" was, the above is weak. Not saying that the fluff doesn't somewhere say that either of these is true (there's a lot of fluff), but the above is not a justification, imo.

knas ser wrote:
For a start, if your goal is to protect humanity, creating an entire race of replacements is probably not a good first step.

Legiones Astartes.

knas ser wrote:
Sit at home and make more for Chaos to steal away?

Seems like a safer option than creating millions of Astartes and starting the Great Crusade. It is more reasonable to conclude that the Emperor could not make more, which is why he mobilized the resources of his entire empire to track down the existing ones.

I'm not trying to build an argument from these conclusions that the Emperor must have used sorcery to create the Primarchs. He could have created them by mistake, for example. Something that he did not understand may have happened in his lab et voila Primarchs resulted, which explanation requires no magic and still nets us an unrepeatable result. But the fluff tells us that he used the Warp as well as technology so there you have it.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I could see the Emperor creating for himself a Primarch like body that he transfered his consciousness into before creating the rest. It would explain how he had walked the Earth for thousands of years prior to becoming a giant.

Shape changing could just be a psychic power.