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So Within my Local area i've constantly been getting Second and Third place in local Tournaments . Which some of you might say " Well Kasrkin why are you complaining ? " My Answer is i strive to win when it comes to competitive play and it has become rather annoying constantly getting the same two places with no improvement .

As a New Motion i am entirely upgrading my Imperial Guard force ( normally included no flyers for the challange in a flyer heavy meta )

As a Result i am introducing the following models into my Mech Guard list that i already own but haven't used thus far at all.


x2 Vendetta Gunships
x1 Vulture Gunship w/ Twin linked Punisher Cannons ( Crowd Control )
x1 Avenger Strike Fighter w/ Two Auto Cannons

( None are Squadroned BTW )

Now my Main goal is to have both a "Shock and Awe " Aspect of throwing four flyers down on the table as well as the power of the Flyers themselves in armament. I plan on Rolling an Astropath to give me that juicy 2+ Reserve roll on Turn 2 . I have a fair amount of Armor on the board Turn 1 ( Five Chimera's and Two Leman Russ Vanquisher's ) .

Obviously by loadout the Vendetta's will be cracking Vehicles with their Triple Las cannon goodness . the Vulture will be smashing Infantry ( Pesky Necron blobs that res . ) and the Avenger contrary to it's normal role will be acting as a cross between AT and AP with heavy Infantry because of their Avenger Bolt Cannon and it's Seven shots of glory .


Now i want to get some Advice on some things you guys will think are Major Issues .

Anti-air wise there is little here and mainly consist of people bringing the bare minimum to account for the Couple Helldrakes and Flying hive Tyrants that buzz around . I intend to make them pay for that mistake ( if being a douche is what it takes then i will )


If people are going to mention me " losing friends " here there is a Very well defined Distinction between competitive gaming and gaming for fun . And These lines are never blurred and hard feelings are generally left on the table .


Anyone willing to give this Tread Head a hand ?

vendetta's are one of the kings of Air Superiority. Tough, high powered and Cheap, they can deal with anything thrown against them.

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
vendetta's are one of the kings of Air Superiority. Tough, high powered and Cheap, they can deal with anything thrown against them.

I have little Experience with them , but i have read arguments about how "Cheesy " people think they are , almost on the same level as Heldrakes ( because people don't know how to deal with em ) .


Any Air threats i should worry about aside from other Vens ?

tau have awesome anti-air. I hear the eldar Flyer is good.

 Commander_Nightflier wrote:
tau have awesome anti-air. I hear the eldar Flyer is good.

Well if i recall the Eldar one gets a 2+ jink when it evades which will be problamatic . any suggestions ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone else want to lend a hand ?

With that much airpower, you should steamroll most lists, unless they have serious AA. Even if they down 1-2 fliers, the rest of your army/remaining fliers will murder them. Certainly, no other aircraft will be a problem.

Vendettas are outright stupid good-probably the best flier in the game at the moment. Vultures are good and can take out anything short of Av12 if needed. Not really familiar with the avenger, but from what I hear it should be fine.

Drakes and FMC's can only vector strike you, hitting your Av12 with 1D3 S6 (S7 for the drake) hits. Then you blast em out of the sky. Cron air can down you, but you can just as easily stop cron air. Tau skyfire/interceptor is an issue, but if you take it out, should be fine. The eldar flier will murder any flier it looks at, but is paper thin, so as long as you shoot it first, it will die. With fliers, the FIFO rule applies. First in, first out (first one on is the 1st to die). Hence the astropath may not be the best idea, unless you go second to draw out the drakes. Great against bugs or other FMC's, as they start on the board.

If you wana go full competitive - take vendettas, drop vanquishers, take a full 50-strong platoon with at least 20-30 grenades, a few meltas, vox casters and power weapons, ally with ultramarines for Tigurius and take xeno inquisitor with grenades. CCS with an astropath, probably with medic and/or carapace if you got points left. Thus you have a resilient and frightening in close quarters 50-strong platoon that can chop heads in mellee with that nades and buffs - they're not afraid of monstrous creatures, they're not afraid of anything that's not 2++ rerollable, and even so - you still have chances with that annoying nades inquisitor has.
Last time i ran a platoon:



Yep, they're not cheap but the platoon itself is only 350 pts and 35 pts for a pcs and they're quite resilient with that 4++ u're gona roll with Tigurius and last few games i tried them out - they killed everything in mellee and shot quite good. I also took a 50-strong conscript squad with lord comissar.
Don't know how they're gona deal with screamerstar and seerstar. Though nades work miracles and all can happen. Even if they can't kill this 2++ rerollable stuff - it's possible that they can tarpit for long.
With aid of vendettas, marbo and something to score like allied snipers or veterans - i think they can get 1-st place while remaining interesting to play with and against.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
With that much airpower, you should steamroll most lists, unless they have serious AA. Even if they down 1-2 fliers, the rest of your army/remaining fliers will murder them. Certainly, no other aircraft will be a problem.

Vendettas are outright stupid good-probably the best flier in the game at the moment. Vultures are good and can take out anything short of Av12 if needed. Not really familiar with the avenger, but from what I hear it should be fine.

Drakes and FMC's can only vector strike you, hitting your Av12 with 1D3 S6 (S7 for the drake) hits. Then you blast em out of the sky. Cron air can down you, but you can just as easily stop cron air. Tau skyfire/interceptor is an issue, but if you take it out, should be fine. The eldar flier will murder any flier it looks at, but is paper thin, so as long as you shoot it first, it will die. With fliers, the FIFO rule applies. First in, first out (first one on is the 1st to die). Hence the astropath may not be the best idea, unless you go second to draw out the drakes. Great against bugs or other FMC's, as they start on the board.

Oh this sounds great . Do you have any advice for the Avenger ? i plan on rolling duel lascannons , duel autocannons and of course the Avenger Bolt Cannon .

My thought process with the Astropath is that alot of my firepower is sitting in aircraft and if the Tactical situation requires that i have every piece of whoop ass on at once . Is that a waste of points ? i have often had a bad experience where i've lost games because my reserves haven't come in when i needed them

Sabre Defense Platforms. Everywhere.

 koooaei wrote:
If you wana go full competitive - take vendettas, drop vanquishers, take a full 50-strong platoon with at least 20-30 grenades, a few meltas, vox casters and power weapons, ally with ultramarines for Tigurius and take xeno inquisitor with grenades. CCS with an astropath, probably with medic and/or carapace if you got points left. Thus you have a resilient and frightening in close quarters 50-strong platoon that can chop heads in mellee with that nades and buffs - they're not afraid of monstrous creatures, they're not afraid of anything that's not 2++ rerollable, and even so - you still have chances with that annoying nades inquisitor has.
Last time i ran a platoon:

Spoiler:

1 Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 385 Pts

4 Platoon Command Squad @ [35] Pts
Lasguns; Vox-caster

1 Platoon Commander @ [14] Pts
Close-combat weapon; Laspistol

9 Infantry Squad @ [75] Pts
Meltagun; Vox-caster

1 Sergeant @ [24] Pts
Power Weapon; Laspistol

9 Infantry Squad @ [75] Pts
Meltagun; Vox-caster

1 Sergeant @ [24] Pts
Power Weapon; Laspistol

9 Infantry Squad @ [80] Pts
Meltagun; Krak Grenades

1 Sergeant @ [24] Pts
Power Weapon; Laspistol; Krak Grenades

9 Infantry Squad @ [60] Pts
Krak Grenades

1 Sergeant @ [14] Pts
Close-combat weapon; Laspistol; Krak Grenades

9 Infantry Squad @ [60] Pts
Krak Grenades

1 Sergeant @ [14] Pts
Close-combat weapon; Laspistol; Krak Grenades

1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (HQ) (IQ) @ 117 Pts
Chainsword; Bolt Pistol; Psychotroke grenades; Rad grenades; Liber
Heresius; Servo-skull (x3); Power Armour; Hammerhand

1 Chief Librarian Tigurius (HQ) (UL) @ 165 Pts

Total Army Cost: 667

Yep, they're not cheap but the platoon itself is only 350 pts and 35 pts for a pcs and they're quite resilient with that 4++ u're gona roll with Tigurius and last few games i tried them out - they killed everything in mellee and shot quite good. I also took a 50-strong conscript squad with lord comissar.
Interesting how are they gona deal with screamerstar and seerstar. Though nades work miracles and all can happen. Even if they not kill them - they're gona tarpit them for the whole game.
With aid of vendettas, marbo and something to score like allied snipers or veterans - i think they can get 1-st place while remaining interesting to play with and against.

I greatly appreciate the Advice ! Unfortunately i'm way to much of a Tread head to try a full infantry list , i've had to many bad experinces with them to want to willingly try them . Cost of models aside and the number ( which i don't have unfortunately only 100 guardsmen about ) I will however keep it in mind . Locally of course my Mech list has excelled beyond what most people would expect which is partly where i think my false security comes from

AS for the Vanquishers ...well ... i like my sponsons and well i find the amount of trollage hilarious when i one shot a land raider .. yes i know its not super reliable

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Do you have any advice for the Avenger ?

Don't waste points on the ACs. Flyers can only fire four weapons per turn at full BS, which means you're shooting the bolt cannon, the two lascannons, and one other weapon. So you're paying the full price for two guns but only get to use one of them. In a TAC list you're better off taking a pair of hellfury missiles for more anti-horde (a target where snap firing a LC doesn't matter) instead.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms. Everywhere.

This. LC Sabres, as many as you can get.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Do you have any advice for the Avenger ?

Don't waste points on the ACs. Flyers can only fire four weapons per turn at full BS, which means you're shooting the bolt cannon, the two lascannons, and one other weapon. So you're paying the full price for two guns but only get to use one of them. In a TAC list you're better off taking a pair of hellfury missiles for more anti-horde (a target where snap firing a LC doesn't matter) instead.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms. Everywhere.

This. LC Sabres, as many as you can get.

Well as the Lascannons and Autocannons both have 48' Range to the Avenger Cannon's 36 i figured it would be a worth while investment to use ( who's going to fire the defensive heavy stubber ? ) I am a bit sketchy on the Hellfury's as the limited amount of Munitions with them doesn't seem like it is a worth while investment

Of the weapon options avaliable which would you suggest ?

x2 Hellstrikes
x2 Hellfurys
x2 Missile Launchers
x2 Auto cannons
x6 Tactical bombs
x2 Multi lasers


Would the bombs be worth while as they are S6 AP4 ? and are dropped along the axis of movement

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Well as the Lascannons and Autocannons both have 48' Range to the Avenger Cannon's 36 i figured it would be a worth while investment to use

Remember, you have flyer movement to get you into range. 36" is almost always enough range, and if you're out of bolt cannon range on a non-vehicle target you're probably better off leaving the table and setting up for a better shot next turn.

( who's going to fire the defensive heavy stubber ? )

Nobody. But you still have five guns:

Bolt cannon
Lascannon
Lascannon
Autocannon
Autocannon

That means at least one will be firing at BS 1, but you paid the full price for the pair of ACs.

I am a bit sketchy on the Hellfury's as the limited amount of Munitions with them doesn't seem like it is a worth while investment

Limited ammunition isn't really a problem. Avengers aren't durable enough to count on getting more than 1-2 shots, and you'll probably shoot at a vehicle at least once. In the one turn you get them the hellfury missiles will do more than the single AC will over an entire game.

Of the weapon options avaliable which would you suggest ?

Hellfury missiles. They're the only meaningful upgrade you can take.

Hellstrikes are garbage because FW still can't figure out that shooting an ordnance krak missile is worse than shooting your two lascannons at full BS. You're paying points to make your shooting worse.
All of the guns are weak because of the four-weapon limit. You're always overpaying for them, and not getting all that much for your points.
Bombs are mediocre. They don't inflict much damage when they do hit, and getting a good bombing run often means giving up shooting your much more effective main guns. 40 points is just too much for such a situational weapon.

Thank you for Breaking that down Peregrine .

With that bare 150 of the strike fighter would you also leave the options blank ? (chaff, ect. ) it seems to me that those are lack luster and since the Chaff Launcher ( only one i would consider ) only works against missiles it seems to narrow it down when most people use Gun AA.



Now that i've sat and thought about it you are very much correct and it stands to more reason that i would throw on Mr.Napalm Missiles ( Hellfury )to be a Giant Middle Finger to infantry.

What points level are you playing at and what exactly is your list? Have you already changed your list to include these flyers or are you still looking at what to drop in your list to include them?

I would say including the four flyers would be a really strong base that should help you get to first place. I really only see tau being a problem since they have so much sky fire.

Im not sure when your next tourny is but the new tyranid flyer the crone is said to be very strong at taking care of the air and with possibly 2 flyrants in the list as well the new tyranids could be very much a problem if someone tries a flyer heavy list.

The eldar flyer shouldnt be much of a problem, I played against it once and it was hard to beat but I had no anti air. Its armor is like paper and once it jinks all its weapons will be snap firing. When you do hit it you will most likely pen it.

 tankboy145 wrote:
What points level are you playing at and what exactly is your list? Have you already changed your list to include these flyers or are you still looking at what to drop in your list to include them?

I would say including the four flyers would be a really strong base that should help you get to first place. I really only see tau being a problem since they have so much sky fire.

Im not sure when your next tourny is but the new tyranid flyer the crone is said to be very strong at taking care of the air and with possibly 2 flyrants in the list as well the new tyranids could be very much a problem if someone tries a flyer heavy list.

The eldar flyer shouldnt be much of a problem, I played against it once and it was hard to beat but I had no anti air. Its armor is like paper and once it jinks all its weapons will be snap firing. When you do hit it you will most likely pen it.

Points level is 2,000 . Question i have about the Nid Flyer , Can it be grounded ? I've faced a list with Three Flying Hive Tyrants and they were certainly a challange ( although the melt to Plasma Fire ) From what i've heard the Nids no longer have access to the Core Rulebook Pyskic powers .


The Primary Flyer heavy armies at the tourni im going to
Chaos ( 6 Drakes FML )
Orks
All Marine Flavors ( usually 2 per )
Eldar
FW Eldar ( both have two per )
And Five Nid players ( yes five) all like running double flyrants ... ( trolled the crap out of em with 9 Hydras the other day )


Any advice on those ? Hell Drakes i'm familiar with ( and lose to often when i don't spam AAA ) but not so much Orks or Stormtalons

Vindettas are excellent.

We basically never play DFO at tournie...or basically ever... So i can't really speak a lot about what the Meta is like in places they do that. I think it's utterly silly to do.

cant go wrong with Vindettas.

 Jancoran wrote:
Vindettas are excellent.

We basically never play DFO at tournie...or basically ever... So i can't really speak a lot about what the Meta is like in places they do that. I think it's utterly silly to do.

cant go wrong with Vindettas.

Well people have no problem killing the Drakes its all the damn Zombies he brings that cause problems

zombies can cause you a serious problem with flyers. nowhere to land = crash. Be careful about that. Anyone who can do a little geometry in their head and sees four flyers will know what to do.

 Jancoran wrote:
zombies can cause you a serious problem with flyers. nowhere to land = crash. Be careful about that. Anyone who can do a little geometry in their head and sees four flyers will know what to do.

Well the advantage i have is three of the Flyer's i brought can hover ( not saying they will because of flaws with it ) i should be able to survive if he can close to where i can't land

yes, but then...you're hovering. Hehehe.

Just something to consider when playing Zombies.

I played a guy who used 9 Vindettas, w Heavy Bolters. oh how my Sisters of Battle withered under his fusilade. I tied that game. That was when you COULD shoot them normally.

I shudder to think how that game would go in 6E. No ones really done it since that ONE game. surprising. People will do 6 Heldrakes which is hella cheeky, but not 9 Vindettas?

Flyers are really really good. Even Tau Fighters are good:
A bird! A Plane! It's Tau flyers!

As are Eldar ones:
Oh No! Eldar Flyers are attacking!

Just fitting the list to suit them is the job.

 Jancoran wrote:
yes, but then...you're hovering. Hehehe.

People underestimate the hover function, it can win you games. While it does have disadvantages, it can be extremely useful too. People were basically hovering vendettas for the entirety of 5th, without the jink save, and they were still amazing.

 Jancoran wrote:
yes, but then...you're hovering. Hehehe.

Just something to consider when playing Zombies.

I played a guy who used 9 Vindettas, w Heavy Bolters. oh how my Sisters of Battle withered under his fusilade. I tied that game. That was when you COULD shoot them normally.

I shudder to think how that game would go in 6E. No ones really done it since that ONE game. surprising. People will do 6 Heldrakes which is hella cheeky, but not 9 Vindettas?

Flyers are really really good. Even Tau Fighters are good:
A bird! A Plane! It's Tau flyers!

As are Eldar ones:
Oh No! Eldar Flyers are attacking!

Just fitting the list to suit them is the job.

Well zombies can't move more then 6 inchs correct ? because of that i should be able to avoid them in a total emergency VTOL moment .
well To me Squadron Aircraft is wasteful when it comes to firepower . The VTOL Function on Gunships is actually fairly useful if you use it right .Kinda how a Helicopter is harder to hit when it's going full speed but is more maneuverable when it chooses to hover


But the Six Helldrakes isn't as bad as it sounds . ( Then again Guard have the Best AA Flyer )

 Trickstick wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
yes, but then...you're hovering. Hehehe.

People underestimate the hover function, it can win you games. While it does have disadvantages, it can be extremely useful too. People were basically hovering vendettas for the entirety of 5th, without the jink save, and they were still amazing.

Im not UNDERestimating it. Just pointing out the issue as one to consider.