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Melee does need some serious help this edition. Ignore unwieldy on the charge isn't even enough by itself IMO. It would bring back a reason to run sergeants with fists, though, and make them somewhat challenge-capable.
No, it does not. That doesn't mean we should have it.
It does terrible things to the internal balance of the book and the whole game.
And it's a ridiculous idea, if you want to fix something underpowered, adding OP stuff to them until it works isn't the answer.
dracpanzer wrote: Things I think BA have a realistic chance of getting.
1- Point reductions of Marines, Libby's and Wargear to DA/CSM levels. (14pt tacticals, 17 pt ASMs with jump packs, 3 pt jump pack upgrades for VV's, DeathCo).
2- Same special/heavy weapon allotments as DA/CSM squads. (special or heavy in a 5 man tac, 2 specials in a 5 man ASM, five specials in a cmd for lib, chap as well as captain).
3- Include wargear options from 5ed BA codex at DA/CSM costs. (Storm Shield's for ASM sgts, MG's for ASM in addition to flamers).
4- Drop Sanguinary Guard point cost down to 25 pts.
Things I'd like to see them get, that should improve competitiveness, and bring them in line with 6ed/fluff.
5- Add the RAGE USR to Black Rage/Red Thirst.
6- DoA allows d6 scatter as before, but also allows DoA units to deploy from reserve like the Deathwing Assault rule.
7- DoA allows JP troops to use JP in the movement AND assault phase like the RG chapter traits.
I could see a lot of dual MG toting ASM squads dropping in on turn whatever you choose with VV's and HG, SP's spreading rage. Diviination Libby's denying cover. Not sure if it'd be better than DA/CSM but it'd be fun.
Things I would love to see but know they won't.
8- Make DeathCo dreads MC's with Black Rage/Red Thirst and IWND.
sounds about the most reasonable list i've seen so far although SG at 25pts seems too cheap they are 2+ save so maybe 27-30... also agree with the possibility of DoA using RG chapter traits...
We are the sons of Sanguinius, the protectors of Mankind. Aye, we are indeed the Angels of Death.
dracpanzer wrote: Things I think BA have a realistic chance of getting.
1- Point reductions of Marines, Libby's and Wargear to DA/CSM levels. (14pt tacticals, 17 pt ASMs with jump packs, 3 pt jump pack upgrades for VV's, DeathCo).
2- Same special/heavy weapon allotments as DA/CSM squads. (special or heavy in a 5 man tac, 2 specials in a 5 man ASM, five specials in a cmd for lib, chap as well as captain).
3- Include wargear options from 5ed BA codex at DA/CSM costs. (Storm Shield's for ASM sgts, MG's for ASM in addition to flamers).
4- Drop Sanguinary Guard point cost down to 25 pts.
Things I'd like to see them get, that should improve competitiveness, and bring them in line with 6ed/fluff.
5- Add the RAGE USR to Black Rage/Red Thirst.
6- DoA allows d6 scatter as before, but also allows DoA units to deploy from reserve like the Deathwing Assault rule.
7- DoA allows JP troops to use JP in the movement AND assault phase like the RG chapter traits.
I could see a lot of dual MG toting ASM squads dropping in on turn whatever you choose with VV's and HG, SP's spreading rage. Diviination Libby's denying cover. Not sure if it'd be better than DA/CSM but it'd be fun.
Things I would love to see but know they won't.
8- Make DeathCo dreads MC's with Black Rage/Red Thirst and IWND.
sounds about the most reasonable list i've seen so far although SG at 25pts seems too cheap they are 2+ save so maybe 27-30... also agree with the possibility of DoA using RG chapter traits...
Could be. And I don't think 25 is that bad when compared to current marine prices...
The JP point is intresting and reasonble. I like it. Just not sure about the DW rule, everything else seems great!
Now that I think of it, the biggest thing I expect is fixing the Sanguinary Guard... So awesome models and I've only fielded them once.
So either they could drop the price or they could improve Glaive Encarmines. Each weapon being AP2 would be the easy choice, but not sure if that's good. Giving them Invunerable would be my second guess.
Three master-crafted S4AP2 hits for every model sounds pretty nice...
soomemafia wrote: Now that I think of it, the biggest thing I expect is fixing the Sanguinary Guard... So awesome models and I've only fielded them once.
So either they could drop the price or they could improve Glaive Encarmines. Each weapon being AP2 would be the easy choice, but not sure if that's good. Giving them Invunerable would be my second guess.
Three master-crafted S4AP2 hits for every model sounds pretty nice...
i still say +2str for a two-handed weapon would be better... considering they loose an attack because of it
We are the sons of Sanguinius, the protectors of Mankind. Aye, we are indeed the Angels of Death.
soomemafia wrote: There are three CC-marines worth mentioning.
One of them just got update.
One of them can be done as a shooting army and has the best marine troop choice out there.
One of them is concidered the worst current codex.
Which one needs it most?
Arguably Templars. There is absolutely no reason to play Vanilla with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars other than possibly min-maxed Crusader Squads. Everything else is done better by the other Chapter Tactics, and the only two assault units in the Codex that can actually fight are Honour Guard and Land Raiders. From a melee perspective, Blood Angels are actually better off than Templars at the moment.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
soomemafia wrote: There are three CC-marines worth mentioning.
One of them just got update.
One of them can be done as a shooting army and has the best marine troop choice out there.
One of them is concidered the worst current codex.
Which one needs it most?
Arguably Templars. There is absolutely no reason to play Vanilla with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars other than possibly min-maxed Crusader Squads. Everything else is done better by the other Chapter Tactics, and the only two assault units in the Codex that can actually fight are Honour Guard and Land Raiders. From a melee perspective, Blood Angels are actually better off than Templars at the moment.
Oh my... After watching the Simpsons for an hour I tought they gave the best laugh of today but here you prove me wrong.
Alright, let's just skip the codex release of the worst army out there to give a new vehicle for an army that just got update, has pretty much every single unit cheaper than BA and has access to things like TFC, Storm Talons and Grav Gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alright, sorry for that attitude I meant no disrespect.
But seriously, BT do pretty fine when compared to BA. We have faster army but we pay a price way too big for it.
soomemafia wrote: Now that I think of it, the biggest thing I expect is fixing the Sanguinary Guard... So awesome models and I've only fielded them once.
So either they could drop the price or they could improve Glaive Encarmines. Each weapon being AP2 would be the easy choice, but not sure if that's good. Giving them Invunerable would be my second guess.
Three master-crafted S4AP2 hits for every model sounds pretty nice...
i still say +2str for a two-handed weapon would be better... considering they loose an attack because of it
Not bad, not bad at all. S6 being the magic number atm so maybe we should get some of that as well
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/18 20:05:02
soomemafia wrote: Now that I think of it, the biggest thing I expect is fixing the Sanguinary Guard... So awesome models and I've only fielded them once.
So either they could drop the price or they could improve Glaive Encarmines. Each weapon being AP2 would be the easy choice, but not sure if that's good. Giving them Invunerable would be my second guess.
Three master-crafted S4AP2 hits for every model sounds pretty nice...
i still say +2str for a two-handed weapon would be better... considering they loose an attack because of it
Well they have angelus boltguns strapped to their arms anyway so even if it was one-handed they wouldn't get +1A (well, unless they took a plasma/infernus/hand-flamer pistol I guess).
dracpanzer wrote: Things I think BA have a realistic chance of getting.
1- Point reductions of Marines, Libby's and Wargear to DA/CSM levels. (14pt tacticals, 17 pt ASMs with jump packs, 3 pt jump pack upgrades for VV's, DeathCo).
2- Same special/heavy weapon allotments as DA/CSM squads. (special or heavy in a 5 man tac, 2 specials in a 5 man ASM, five specials in a cmd for lib, chap as well as captain).
3- Include wargear options from 5ed BA codex at DA/CSM costs. (Storm Shield's for ASM sgts, MG's for ASM in addition to flamers).
4- Drop Sanguinary Guard point cost down to 25 pts.
Things I'd like to see them get, that should improve competitiveness, and bring them in line with 6ed/fluff.
5- Add the RAGE USR to Black Rage/Red Thirst.
6- DoA allows d6 scatter as before, but also allows DoA units to deploy from reserve like the Deathwing Assault rule.
7- DoA allows JP troops to use JP in the movement AND assault phase like the RG chapter traits.
I could see a lot of dual MG toting ASM squads dropping in on turn whatever you choose with VV's and HG, SP's spreading rage. Diviination Libby's denying cover. Not sure if it'd be better than DA/CSM but it'd be fun.
Things I would love to see but know they won't.
8- Make DeathCo dreads MC's with Black Rage/Red Thirst and IWND.
sounds about the most reasonable list i've seen so far although SG at 25pts seems too cheap they are 2+ save so maybe 27-30... also agree with the possibility of DoA using RG chapter traits...
I think these are reasonable changes that would boost them up to a good level, but it would leave the codex feeling a little underwhelming. I think there needs to be a few changes to move them further away from regular space marines and re-establish their deviancy from the norm.
Sanguinary Priests-- points drop on wargear and add the number that can be taken per elites choice to 1-10. Any built in Sangs count against this limit. Sanguinary Priests are a huge part of the background and they are what make the Blood Angels unique. Having more of them is also a way for GW to produce a new kit for the release, which they have to do money-wise. Sang Priests rules remain basically the same, but they are much cheaper wargear wise.
Red Thirst-- here is the big one. Make it work like pain tokens for DE. For every unit wiped out with shooting or forced to fall back, add +1 on the table and apply the result. for every unit wiped out in CC or forced to fall back, the BA unit adds +2 on the table and applies the result. Results are cumulative. Here is my proposed table--
1 blood token--Unit gains Fleet. If a jet pack unit, they can use their packs in both the movement phase and the assault phase. Unit gains +1 iniative on the charge. Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy.
2 blood tokens-- any FNP affecting the BA unit is improved by 1. So 5+ becomes 4+, etc. LD for this and future Red Thirst checks permanently reduced by 1. Reduce all cover saves by 1.Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy.
3 blood tokens.-- any FNP affecting the BA unit is improved by a further +1. The unit now has the IWND 5+ special rule. No cover saves may be taken by the BA unit. The unit gains 'preferred enemy' of whatever type of unit they just wiped out. Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy. Reduce LD for the purposes of Red Thirst by 1. After 3 tokens, you have to take a LD test after you wipe out or force any unit to fall back. If you fail, you pursue them.
I think this would be good as it would make your army more powerful, but also more difficult to control as time went on. It would give you an incentive both to load up on SPs in order to keep control of your force, and also to not take them entirely, and hope that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Death Company would be brutal, but only late in game as their power gradually ramped up. By the end of the game it would be very cinematic as the BA battle plan has broken down, with souped up guys dropping their bolters and tearing into baddies in hand-to-hand. Very cool.
Sang Guard and any unit with Lemartes in it gets the benefits of the blood tokens but does not suffer the drawbacks. Guys with a Priest in the unit still accrue the counters, but they do nothing unless the SP is killed, in which case they manifest.
For Dante- any unit with Dante can consolidate into close combat. Do whatever you want with the axe, that would make him one of the best characters around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 01:28:37
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
Red Thirst-- here is the big one. Make it work like pain tokens for DE. For every unit wiped out with shooting or forced to fall back, add +1 on the table and apply the result. for every unit wiped out in CC or forced to fall back, the BA unit adds +2 on the table and applies the result. Results are cumulative.
Here is my proposed table--
1 blood token--Unit gains Fleet. If a jet pack unit, they can use their packs in both the movement phase and the assault phase. Unit gains +1 iniative on the charge. Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy.
2 blood tokens-- any FNP affecting the BA unit is improved by 1. So 5+ becomes 4+, etc. LD for this and future Red Thirst checks permanently reduced by 1. Reduce all cover saves by 1.Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy.
3 blood tokens.-- any FNP affecting the BA unit is improved by a further +1. The unit now has the IWND 5+ special rule. No cover saves may be taken by the BA unit. The unit gains 'preferred enemy' of whatever type of unit they just wiped out. Make a LD check or move max distance towards closest enemy. Reduce LD for the purposes of Red Thirst by 1.
After 3 tokens, you have to take a LD test after you wipe out or force any unit to fall back. If you fail, you pursue them.
I think this would be good as it would make your army more powerful, but also more difficult to control as time went on. It would give you an incentive both to load up on SPs in order to keep control of your force, and also to not take them entirely, and hope that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Death Company would be brutal, but only late in game as their power gradually ramped up. By the end of the game it would be very cinematic as the BA battle plan has broken down, with souped up guys dropping their bolters and tearing into baddies in hand-to-hand. Very cool.
Sang Guard and any unit with Lemartes in it gets the benefits of the blood tokens but does not suffer the drawbacks. Guys with a Priest in the unit still accrue the counters, but they do nothing unless the SP is killed, in which case they manifest.
For Dante- any unit with Dante can consolidate into close combat. Do whatever you want with the axe, that would make him one of the best characters around.
Alright, who invited Kelly here?
A nice idea, but I like things more simplified.
Red Thirst can be improved, but I think the basic idea should be the same. Roll for each squad separately, Red Thirst applies on rolls one and two and gives Fearless, Furious Charge and then something less useful but fun... Fleet maybe? Or rage?
soomemafia wrote: There are three CC-marines worth mentioning.
One of them just got update.
One of them can be done as a shooting army and has the best marine troop choice out there.
One of them is concidered the worst current codex.
Which one needs it most?
Arguably Templars. There is absolutely no reason to play Vanilla with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars other than possibly min-maxed Crusader Squads. Everything else is done better by the other Chapter Tactics, and the only two assault units in the Codex that can actually fight are Honour Guard and Land Raiders. From a melee perspective, Blood Angels are actually better off than Templars at the moment.
Oh my... After watching the Simpsons for an hour I tought they gave the best laugh of today but here you prove me wrong.
Alright, let's just skip the codex release of the worst army out there to give a new vehicle for an army that just got update, has pretty much every single unit cheaper than BA and has access to things like TFC, Storm Talons and Grav Gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alright, sorry for that attitude I meant no disrespect.
But seriously, BT do pretty fine when compared to BA. We have faster army but we pay a price way too big for it.
Yes, all those amazing melee units in Codex: Space Marines sure makes it easy to play a BT army. It's not like I pointed out that every other Chapter Tactic is better than ours or anything...
In fact, and this is going to get long-winded, let's do a thought experiment:
Spoiler:
Let's assume for the purposes of this experiment that the Blood Angels got folded into the Vanilla Codex. Your Chapter Tactic is to unlock Assault Marines as Troops, Death Company and to allow Honour Guard to purchase Jump Packs, so no more Red Thirst. Furioso Dreadnoughts are now Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Death Company Dreadnoughts are now normal Dreadnoughts with 2x DCCW. Death Company are now 19 PPM without FNP, have lost an attack and relentless and still can't score. You can unlock Furious Charge for your entire army for one turn by taking Dante, who is the same as the current Codex except he's lost his Death Mask and no longer makes Sanguinary Guard (who no longer exist) scoring. You have no more fast Rhino chassis and Baal Predators are now turret swaps for normal Predators. Reclusiarchs no longer exist, it's normal Chaplain (who's now an HQ) or nothing.
As a Blood Angels player, would you be happy to trade all of the above for Storm Talons, Grav-weapons, Thunderfire Cannons, cheaper Tactical Squads, 2 dedicated anti-air tanks, 2 good melee artifacts and potential access to scoring bikers? Would you call such a Codex "pretty fine" compared to your current Codex when you take into account that all the other Chapter Tactics are better than yours?
The above scenario is what I hope Blood Angels get to avoid, because it frakking sucks. Even if it's not the army I play, I want GW to at least make one viable MEQCC army in 6th edition.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
If I wanted to play those units I'd play Ultrasmurfs.
I guess that's what you are trying to say as well...
Fair enough, I get your point.
But you constantly refer to other chapter tactics being better than the BT one and that is irrelevant to this thread. What is relevant is BA compared to BT. And here I'd say that you do have the edge.
soomemafia wrote: If I wanted to play those units I'd play Ultrasmurfs.
I guess that's what you are trying to say as well...
Fair enough, I get your point.
Yes, that's the point, and I hope with all my liver (because hoping with the heart is so mainstream!) that Blood Angels don't end up in the same situation.
But you constantly refer to other chapter tactics being better than the BT one and that is irrelevant to this thread. What is relevant is BA compared to BT. And here I'd say that you do have the edge.
I'd argue that too. Sure, scoring grav-bikers are nice, but part of what makes them good is the White Scars CT. Without the +1 jink saves, ignoring DT and, above all else, Hit & Run, Grav-bikers are significantly weaker. If you're taking Grav-guns on anything that's not bikers you're doing it wrong, since you more or less need Relentless for it to be worth it.
TFCs are good, not going to argue that point.
I don't see how Stormtalons are that much different from a Baal Predator to be honest. Sure, it's flying and can have some S7 shots too, but it's AV11 and 2 HP, plus it can't Scout or Outflank.
In short, the reason I'm comparing the other Chapter Tactics to BT when it's a BA thread is to point out that most of the "good" units in C:SM that BA can't take have their state of being "good" linked to being taken with a Chapter Tactic that isn't BT. As such, while the same units are available to BT, they're (sometimes much) worse, because they don't have any sort of synergy with the possible lists.
Back on topic, I'd honestly want to see Blood Angels get to assault from deep strike. It's not ever going to happen, but if the shootier armies had to adapt to Blood Angels showing up and alpha striking THEM, other Codices could benefit from the meta-shift too.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Personally I'd like to see Mephiston get a 4+ FNP as I feel that would make him more survivable. No need to mess with his cost or stats. Making him an IC might be a good alternative. I also agree with a chapter wide point reduction, especially regarding DC with JP. I kinda think the Red Thirst should come into effect when your unit gets slaughtered down to half strength. I feel this represents BA as a chapter Dante definitely needs an invulnerable save and to swing at initiative. Sanguinary Guard gets +1 WS and +1 wounds and rending. Just my thoughts...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 05:15:41
4000p
1500p
Angels Redemptive: 5000 pts
Plague Legion: 2000 pts 
so no.
