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Hi, for the record, this is my first post on DAKKA DAKKA. I've been playing 40k for about 5 years now, started in med school with a friend splitting Assault on Black Reach, he took the Orks and I never looked back. I love 40k and have played games against every army with every army, but I own only a Space Marine Army. I love Space Marines, but understand how cheesy they can get, so I built my armies around what I think a good Ultramarine formation would look like, balance (40k... balance... HAHAHA). I currently have a squad of Imperial Guard made whom I am going to make into a Ultramar Auxiliary Force to accent my main Marine one, mainly for the wounds (Send in the next wave!) and a Vendetta or two. Money and girlfriend (I wonder where all the money goes?) is keeping me from getting any more, so I make do. I play with a guy who has placed 1st in many tournaments (12 if I remember correctly) and has enough of every army to field 1500 pts or so. He's a nice guy too, like give you the shirt off his back, he's just very competitive. We play 2600 pts because that's what I have and we like big games. We also play WYSIWYG to the letter (if the model doesn't have grenades on the model even though he does in the profile, he doesn't have grenades)
This is my problem, he brings 2 Heldrakes, 2 squads of Chaos Marines with the mark of Nergal in Rhinos (THE METAL BAWKSES), and a big group of Bikers every game. He has three independent characters normally on bikes that are made very powerful (he changes them around every game) but normally have the AP3 flame gun and plasma. He then floats around with either a land raider and Terminators or 3 dreadnoughts drop podding in. Extra points are spent on throw away units (cultists, zombies, ect.). Minus his throw away, he numbers between 25 and 30 models. We have played 12 games over the last few months, and I have never beat nor tied him. I've been tabled 5 times, one time by turn two (fully loaded Stormraven crashed perfectly into 10 guys just popped out a exploded Rhino in that one (It was comical how bad and quickly I lost, killed only one model of his to boot)).
I consistently get burned to a crisp by the Heldrakes, and can't seem to be able to put a dent in them. I can normally shoot one down by the Stormraven while it drops my sternguard, Librarian, and a dreadnought in his backfield, but then it gets vectored to death while my sternguard get burned. I am quite good against anything else in his army with my melta and plasma, so the only thing I have trouble with in every game is the Heldrakes. That needed skyfire for most things and 5+ Invuln is murder. I've even spent a game only attacking them to see if I could kill them all, and still wasn't able to. Suggestions?

My list
2600 (Actually 2599, but who's counting)
Space Marine Librarian - 65
Epistolary - 25
Terminator Armor - 25
-215
Stormraven - 200
Multi-Melta - Free
Assault Cannon - Free
Space Marine Sternguard Veterans Squad - 230
Power Fist - 25
Combi-Plasma - 10
x2 Combi-Melta - 20
-285
Dreadnought - 100
Space Marine Scout Squad - 110
x9 Sniper Rifle - 9
Missile Launcher - 10
-129
Space Marine Tactical Squad - 140
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Flamer - 5
Missile Launcher - 15
Rhino - 35
-205
Space Marine Tactical Squad - 140
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Power Sword - 15
Plasma Pistol - 15
Melta Bomb - 5
Melta Gun - 10
Multi Melta - 10
Rhino - 35
-240
Space Marine Tactical Squad - 140
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Power Fist - 25
Storm Bolter - 5
Melta Gun - 10
Multi Melta - 10
Rhino - 35
-235
Space Marine Tactical Squad - 140
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Power Ax - 15
Plasma Gun - 10
Multi Melta - 10
Rhino - 35
-220
Space Marine Devastator Squad - 140
x2 Missile Launcher - 20
x2 Heavy Bolter - 20
-180
Space Marine Assault Squad - 170
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Power Fist - 25
Plasma Pistol - 15
Combat Shield - 5
Flamer - 5
Plasma Pistol - 15
-245
Space Marine Assault Squad - 170
Veteran Sgt. - 10
Power Ax - 15
Combat Shield - 5
Flamer - 5
Plasma Pistol - 15
-220
Vindicator - 125

(Sorry for making the post so long, don't know my way around the forums yet)

First off, Welcome to Dakka.

This might be better served over in the army list section. As a note, there is a sticky at the top there with some rules on posting lists. One of the big ones is not to list individual upgrade points. Just have a total for the squad.

That's some pretty harsh WYSWYG there. Most people don't care about basic gear like grenades and bolt pistols; it's just the relevant upgrades they want to see. I assume you are using FW rules/units? You mention him drop podding stuff, and while no CSM player myself, I'm pretty sure they can't do that from the basic codex.

You have a fun and fluffy list. Your friend has a much more competitive list. Don't feel like you need to hold back against someone fielding 3 drakes.

I think you overspent on war gear. Plasma pistols are not worth 15 points, and some of your sergeants have a lot of toys for 1W models. I'd rather see the sternguard drop podding in, rather then rideing in the raven. Stormravens are nice, and give you desperately needed AA. But run them empty as gunboats. Get more AA. Drakes are custom made to eat your army. You need them out of the sky.

You might want to lower your points. You have a lot of troops and grunts, but not a lot of heavy hitters. All you are bringing to a large game are targets. I see you with two options: play lower points, so your hard hitting units aren't quite so diluted, or add some fresh blood. Not sure what your budget and opertunitys allow.

Agreed with the points above. This would be better in the army list forum. The plasma pistols especially are a very expensive upgrade that has little chance of having an impact on the game.

One suggestion I would make is to take more Stormravens. I would drop the assault marines in exchange. As a CSM player, I don't have a lot of anti-air options to begin with, but I have plenty of stuff that eats up MEQ. You might want to think about that in the composition of your list.

Let him go first.

Then conceded just before you deploy...

(Kidding, but 3 helltukeys? I wouldn't face that regularly)

Bharring wrote:
Let him go first.

Then conceded just before you deploy...

(Kidding, but 3 helltukeys? I wouldn't face that regularly)

In his defense, 3 helldrakes is a little more understandable in a 2,600 point game then a 1,500 list. Still not something I'd want to see, but larger games should have more ugly stuff on the table.

Thanks Nevelon for the welcome, and apologies for this not being in the right list, I just saw general discussion and went with that. And again for the list that I put, lesson learned, wont do it again.

I am aware that we play hardcore WYSIWYG, but i've got used to it, it makes it so you have to get more models if you want something different. And yes I do play other games with friends where my plasma gun is now just a bolter or vise verse, its just with this one guy that we follow his house rule. In fact, that's the only rule he has, he has lots of people that come over, and it makes things easier if what the model has is what they have.

About the plasma pistols, they are 15pts, just looked it up in the SM book. The CSM drop pods though do seem odd to me, I don't remember if he had allies or not. I've never known him to use something that is not in the rule book word for word.

Yes I am using FW units

As for the sergeants having a lot of toys, I always like to think that since SM are more or less the heroes of mankind, their leaders might as well have cool things, they earned it. While it may be (is not) the most combat sound, I like the look on my opponents face when the only guy left in a squad is the sergeant fighting for his life three turns in a row, somehow surviving five, six, or more wounds a turn. Those combat shields for the Assault Marines have saved me so many times, and I love it when the only guy to survive is the sergeant crawling out of a crater that claimed his whole squad. That just screams cool to me.

I regards to the AA, the SM have crap AA, what IG AA would you suggest against the daemon fliers?

I have almost conceded before the first turn, but that was years ago when I was was fighting a Elder list that had 3 Wave Serpents (I think) with the suped up blast template, and I didn't bring rhinos that time.