Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK my question has a statement to start. First off i see people saying that ZOEYS only get Assault 3 and their physic test is taken as a unit as well as their Deny the witch,
WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS?

Second off if i am reading this correctly it says "For example, a brood of 3 ZOEY's taht succesuflly manifest a warp blast treat both lance and blast as ASSUALT 3."

Which means to me each unit has a ASSULT 3 shot, or 3 Zoeys produces 9 shots.

I would appreciate responses with PAGE NUMBERS to indicate otherwise.

And to this point i do not see anything overiding the BRB saying each pysher is individual

Zooey's are Brotherhood of Psykers now. BRB page 34. The whole unit is a single psyker.

OK this i see nowehre does it Say turning assault 1 into 3 negates the other 6 attcks.

It says they are 1 unit sure, for the purpose of the pyshic test,
not that they fire 1 shot?

It clearly says example assault 1 becomes assault 3

it counts as one spell though not 3 seperate ones. you get 1 assault for each zoey in the brood but its all in one ability instead of them each casting their own like it used to be.

I dont get how you transform takes a physic test as a unit, into shoots as a unit?

Where does this logic come from, yes im asking you to word lawyer me so i understand all i see is and i qoute

""the unit follows all the normal rules for pyshers" Shooting separately ETC(and this is where im going to need you to tell me where pyshers all shoot as a squadron)

"The unit uses the LF of its character.......

Bullet 2 is "resolve perils against a random unit"

So we go to pyschers section and it says"Page67 steps 1-5
step 5 is assuming the test is passed and its not denied the witch, the power is now resolved"

So now i go to the shooting section of pyshic powers and i have

page 69"Witchfire- THE PYSHER uses this ability" NOT a group of pyschers uses 1 ability EACH pyscher does.

Where are you guys getting a group shoots 1 shot and not a PER MODEL basis as page 69 SHOWS

I get they manifest it as a unit but why would it be fired as one?

I wasn't going to comment as I have not read the new codex but I have to ask a few questions:
Does the unit have just the Brotherhood of Psyker Special Rule?
Is the attack being discussed a psychic power?

If the answer to the both of these is yes then the answer is easy:
The individual models lack the ability to generate their own Warp Point.

In order for a model to carry out a psychic attack it has to have access to the power, have a Warp Point to spend and one or two other things. While it can easily be say that every model in the unit has the ability to access the psychic power that the unit as a whole is entitled to, the same can not be said for the Warp generation portion of the equation. As the entire unit generates just one Warp Point, total, so there is only ever one possibility to cast a single psychic power as it does not have the power to fuel additional powers.

As for how the unit deals with the fact psyker rules require 'models' to work:
Counts as.

Counts as does so many wonderful things in this game; it can have you throw out Characteristic's in favor for a number provided by a Special Rule, it can force you to use a different Unit Type for a model, it can grant Special Rules for a spur of the moment thing and a great deal more. In this case it can have an entire unit do something as if it was a single model and that is very unusual, but well within the realm of Advance Rules. As the entire unit counts as a single Master Level 1 Psyker, it has permission to do anything that a Master Level 1 Psyker would otherwise be able to do so. This would mean every time you see 'model' within the Psyker resolution section, the Brotherhood of Special rule meets the requirements thanks to 'counts as a Master Level 1 Psyker.'

Bloodynecronight wrote:
I dont get how you transform takes a physic test as a unit, into shoots as a unit?

And I don't see where you're multiplying a single Assault 3 weapon into 3 Assault 3 weapons. Sure, there's three models. But there's only one casting, and therefore only one weapon for them to fire.

Bloodynecronight wrote:
Bullet 2 is "resolve perils against a random unit"

Um, yikes. How are you going to grasp the distinctions between models and units when you use the term "unit" for both?

Each zoanthrope is a model. The group of 3 Zoanthropes is a unit. The unit is a Level 1 Psyker. The individual models are not Level 1 psykers.

Bloodynecronight wrote:
page 69"Witchfire- THE PYSHER uses this ability" NOT a group of pyschers uses 1 ability EACH pyscher does.

Brotherhoods are not each psykers.

Bloodynecronight wrote:
I get they manifest it as a unit but why would it be fired as one?

If it's manifested as a unit, how could it possibly be fired any other way?

My response to you would then be tell me why as brotherhood they only generate 1 warp charge.
That is nowhere in the brotherhood rules which i qouted word for word above

and i qoute page 66"Each mastery level grants A(not a unit A as in one model) Pyshcer a single warp charge""

Nowhere do i see in codex nids Brotherhood makes a group of zoeys all mastery level 1 as a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Answered my own question
page 34"a unit with this special rule counts as A mastery level 1 psycher."

This comes back to those two little words again:
Count as.
The entire unit counts as a, as in singular, Master Level 1 Psyker.

Bloodynecronight wrote:
My response to you would then be tell me why as brotherhood they only generate 1 warp charge.
That is nowhere in the brotherhood rules which i qouted word for word above

and i qoute page 66"Each mastery level grants A(not a unit A as in one model) Pyshcer a single warp charge""

Nowhere do i see in codex nids Brotherhood makes a group of zoeys all mastery level 1 as a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Answered my own question
page 34"a unit with this special rule counts as A mastery level 1 psycher."

Do Zoanthropes have the Psyker rule? Or do they only have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule?

Brotherhood you guys are right it says under brotherhood generates 1 warp charge

They're mastery level 2, it says so in the bestiary. I seriously have no idea why this is even a discussion when it's clearly written for once.

"Psychic Brood: A Zoanthrope brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that the unit has a Mastery Level of 2. In addition, if a brood of Zoanthropes uses the Warp Blast power, the number of shots fired is equal to the number of Zoanthropes in that brood.

For example, a brood of three Zoanthropes that successfully manifested Warp Blast would treat both the Burst and Lance profiles as Assault 3."

 Windir83 wrote:
They're mastery level 2, it says so in the bestiary. I seriously have no idea why this is even a discussion when it's clearly written for once.

"Psychic Brood: A Zoanthrope brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that the unit has a Mastery Level of 2. In addition, if a brood of Zoanthropes uses the Warp Blast power, the number of shots fired is equal to the number of Zoanthropes in that brood.

For example, a brood of three Zoanthropes that successfully manifested Warp Blast would treat both the Burst and Lance profiles as Assault 3."

THe last sentence is clear, as in the Codex.

But what does Mastery Level 2 actually give you? Access to a second power... but is that used instead of Warp Blast, or in addition to? and if it's used instead of, you just get one go, correct?

I"m thinking this is a nerf, as it forces you to go all or nothing, whereas previously, one Zoey could for example cast FNP where the other two used warp blast. but my brain is on overload and I"m sure I missed something.

Warp lance is a ML 2 power. Zoeys do not have permission to generate a second power iirc

The brood does have access to one more Power Of The Hive Mind. But I guess now they have one shot, not 3 as before.

rigeld2 wrote:
Warp lance is a ML 2 power. Zoeys do not have permission to generate a second power iirc

It's in the army list entry.

Zoeys aren't always in range to shoot so the second power helps for those turns that they aren't. Also sometimes you'll need the extra synapse range more than shooting.

The brood does have access to one more Power Of The Hive Mind. But I guess now they have one shot, not 3 as before.

It's one power manifest for the whole unit but each model generates a shot.

Does the power say it generates a shot for each model within the unit?

Yes, it alters the assault value

Sorry for not being precise:
I have just seen people posting that the Power grants assault 3 and was curious if that was a Set Value or if it was because the rule states 'models in the unit' and the default number was 3.

I really have to get that damn codex, but I am trying not to fall too far behind on these threads.

JinxDragon wrote:
Sorry for not being precise:
I have just seen people posting that the Power grants assault 3 and was curious if that was a Set Value or if it was because the rule states 'models in the unit' and the default number was 3.

I really have to get that damn codex, but I am trying not to fall too far behind on these threads.

It's the latter. Windir83 posted the quote of the rule above, it's part of the Zoanthropes Psychic Brood rule.

I'm pretty sure OP is under the impression that Warp Blast is assault 3. If this is the case let me clear that up for you. It's assault 1. You get a shot for each Zoanthrope, 3 Zoans = 3 shots. Hive Tyrants and Tervigons that shoot it at Assault 1 as do individual Zoanthropes.

 Tarrasq wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Warp lance is a ML 2 power. Zoeys do not have permission to generate a second power iirc

It's in the army list entry.

Zoeys aren't always in range to shoot so the second power helps for those turns that they aren't. Also sometimes you'll need the extra synapse range more than shooting.

The brood does have access to one more Power Of The Hive Mind. But I guess now they have one shot, not 3 as before.

It's one power manifest for the whole unit but each model generates a shot.

If you're replying to me, I get that two zoeys shoots two warp blast, three fire three, all or nothing.

But what happens with the second power you've rolled for. Do they each get a roll to choose the second power (wishful thinking) or do you roll for (and cast) only one second power for the entire Brotherhood? I'm suspecting the latter, which is a really severe nerf, but given the amount of complaining about the new codex, I'm surprised people aren't getting angrier about this one. Of course, needing two Zoeys in order to roll Warp Blast is a second major nerf. A zoey is about 2/3 as useful as it was before.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Warp lance is a ML 2 power. Zoeys do not have permission to generate a second power iirc

It's in the army list entry.

Zoeys aren't always in range to shoot so the second power helps for those turns that they aren't. Also sometimes you'll need the extra synapse range more than shooting.

The brood does have access to one more Power Of The Hive Mind. But I guess now they have one shot, not 3 as before.

It's one power manifest for the whole unit but each model generates a shot.

If you're replying to me, I get that two zoeys shoots two warp blast, three fire three, all or nothing.

But what happens with the second power you've rolled for. Do they each get a roll to choose the second power (wishful thinking) or do you roll for (and cast) only one second power for the entire Brotherhood? I'm suspecting the latter, which is a really severe nerf, but given the amount of complaining about the new codex, I'm surprised people aren't getting angrier about this one. Of course, needing two Zoeys in order to roll Warp Blast is a second major nerf. A zoey is about 2/3 as useful as it was before.

They can't each generate an extra power, because the whole brood is a single psyker (see Brotherhood of psyker)

A single ML2 psyker, as well, so a single zoey still can cast Lance

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Warp lance is a ML 2 power. Zoeys do not have permission to generate a second power iirc

It's in the army list entry.

Zoeys aren't always in range to shoot so the second power helps for those turns that they aren't. Also sometimes you'll need the extra synapse range more than shooting.

The brood does have access to one more Power Of The Hive Mind. But I guess now they have one shot, not 3 as before.

It's one power manifest for the whole unit but each model generates a shot.

If you're replying to me, I get that two zoeys shoots two warp blast, three fire three, all or nothing.

But what happens with the second power you've rolled for. Do they each get a roll to choose the second power (wishful thinking) or do you roll for (and cast) only one second power for the entire Brotherhood? I'm suspecting the latter, which is a really severe nerf, but given the amount of complaining about the new codex, I'm surprised people aren't getting angrier about this one. Of course, needing two Zoeys in order to roll Warp Blast is a second major nerf. A zoey is about 2/3 as useful as it was before.

The Brood gets 1 roll on the table for their secondary power in addition to their default power of Warp blast.

The rules for Zoanthropes are pretty specific in that the entire brood will generate 1 power in addition to Warp Blast. It does kind of suck that WB is 2 charges. Means that despite being ML2, Zoanthrope units will only ever cast 1 power per turn.

I would love to see an errate letting them cast the power twice.

barnowl wrote:
I would love to see an errate letting them cast the power twice.

Yeah, I don't see that happening. This seems to be a deliberate design decision, forcing them to choose between Warp Blast OR their other power. Honestly if Warp Blast wasn't WC2, I suspect they'd be a Brotherhood with Mastery Level 1.

Yeah and Zoanthropes are a good deal better now with losing 10 points gaining the ability to have a power in additional to warp blast and only requiring 1 psychic test for the unit just helps them out immensely. They don't need to be able to cast catalyst or psychic scream twice as well that would be a bit much.

They cast 1 power a turn as a brood and in the case of Warp Blast they get 1 shot for each member of the brood.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah and Zoanthropes are a good deal better now....

That's demonstrably untrue.

With a brood of 3 zoanthropes in the past, you could choose to use warp blast or not on an individual basis, and you would have a far better chance of getting, for instance, FNP. The access to a second power is pretty much useless. The odds of actually getting warp blast are no better; in a sense they're worse. Now it's three or nothing, if you have a full brood, in the past your risks were spread so you had a better chance of getting a single blast. In addition, previously you would have had access to three second powers, now we have one. We're paying 5/6 of the points for a unit that is 2/3 as useful, or less.