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Hi guys! I'm a relative newbie to 40K, looking forward to the second round of our local escalation tournament (750 points).

I've done pretty well in the first round so far, but I'm hearing a lot of rumors that fliers will be making a more significant appearance in the second round. One Marine player is already fielding a Stormtalon at 500 to great effect, and our Chaos player is mumbling about a Heldrake or two in the upcoming round. So while I don't want to build my list entirely around anti-air, I want to make sure I have some options in that category. Here's what I've been looking at and my initial thoughts; feedback would be much appreciated.

* Crimson Hunter (160 pts): Great anti-air, effective against other armor if there are no fliers, and such a pretty model. Problem is, it's super fragile, so if anyone ELSE is fielding anti-air, I'm likely to put it on the board and then immediately take it off unless I can knock out the AA very quickly.

* ADL with quad-gun or Icarus (85/100 points): Gives good cover, and very effective against aircraft and reserves in general. Cost-effective, but does nothing without some units to do the shooting; an Autarch or a small squad of Dark Reapers with an Exarch would do nicely. Might be fun to put a very snipey HQ (e.g., Illic Nightspear) in there to man the gun when he's not taking out enemy characters.

* Dark Reapers with a Flakk missile Exarch (150 points): Good unit with general versatility, though the anti-air option is pretty pricey. I'd probably pay the extra 10 points to give the Exarch Fast Shot.

* War Walker(s) with a Flakk missile launcher (85+ points): Cheapest option, but also the most frail (except for the Crimson Hunter).

I've also heard that Warp Spiders are more effective against aircraft than they first appear, but have no real data to back that up.

Right now I'm leaning towards an ADL with a quad-gun, manned by a minimal squad of Dark Reapers with an Exarch (no missile launcher, though). It's almost a third of my army's points, but should deal nicely with flyers, reserves in general, and be able to pound ground units when there's no need for the turret. A squad of War Walkers, one or two with Flakk missiles, might also work.

Thoughts?

Warp Spiders are indeed very good against Flyers. Remember that, as Flyers have no initiative, their shots are resolved at S7. Warp Spiders are also a lot quicker, so can get around to a Flyer's rear armour with relative ease.

Remember that, at 750 points, you might not face any fliers at all and very few armies are going to be able to bring more than one without seriously mitigating their Troops choices and allowing you an easy victory. Don't tailor your list to anti-flier at this points level because, if you do, and you don't face one in a given battle, you're going to struggle otherwise.

Bearing that in mind, choose units that work well against Fliers and other units, such as Warp Spiders and War Walkers (either SL/BL or Dual Scatter). An Aegis could be useful, but I wouldn't park some Dark Reapers behind it, because they're too expensive and remember that the unit can't split fire. So if the Exarch fires, you've got the rest of the unit sitting around doing nothing. A unit of 10 Guardians with a Warlock attached would work ok. You're still firing off a decent BS4 with that Quad Gun and you've got a unit sitting around (usually on an objective) with a 2+ cover save most of the time. As a final tip. bring a Farseer. Hitting on 6s aren't so scary when you're re-rolling!

Thanks for the feedback!

The S7 is certainly good; I just worry that the Warp Spiders won't manage enough hits to take fliers out quickly. With a squad of 6, that's 12 shots for an average of 2 hits; even if the flier is armor 10, that's only 1 or 2 hull points on average. I'd much rather have 4 twin-linked shots at full BS from the quad-gun. I do love some Guide, but if the Spiders are staying mobile, they'll be out of range a lot.

Your point about Split Fire is a good one, which is why an independent character (Autarch or Farseer) might be a better bet, The Farseer could buff from the back row that way, while the Autarch would basically just man the gun. Put a squad nearby to cover the HQ and receive buffs...could work nicely.

You have given me much to think about.

Illic isn't a bad idea either if hes your warlord, a 2+ behind an agies defense line with a unit of guardians or rangers and he has split fire.

I did consider putting Illic behind the Aegis, but it seems like that doesn't take advantage of a lot of his special abilities (Voidbringer, the special Infiltrate abilities, etc.). And with a twin-linked gun like the quad-gun, BS 9 really isn't any better than BS 5. Seems like a lot of points for little gain.

I think the Rangers may be the way to go behind the Aegis, because they have both long range and stealth (to maximize the cover).

What HQ are you running? If an autarch you have the ability to manipulate reserves. So you can try to get your hunter to show up after the other flyers to get in the first shot. Or with vector dancer you can try to stay out of LOS or range until you need to strike.

Another option is just to ignore flyers. At low points, they are going to represent a sizable potion of your opponent's army. A portion that is not in play for the first turn or two/three. Take advantage of outnumbering your opponent to play aggressively for the first turns. Hopefully you will have decided the battle before the birds show up.

Honestly, two dakka Serpents at 750 is all the anti-air you need. If you want to go that route, of course.

War walkers with guide on them should work.

@Nevelon, I'm currently planning to run a Farseer. An Autarch could work, but I'm less worried about other fliers than I am about ground-based anti-air (the other side's quad-gun, etc.). Relying on taking that out quickly is a big risk for such a fragile point sink as the Crimson Hunter.

@Araenion, by "Dakka Serpents" I assume you mean twin-linked Scatter Lasers and a Shuriken Cannon? There is a lot of value there, and I have the models...I just worry about hitting enough with high enough S to take down a Heldrake before it heals.

 Araenion wrote:
Honestly, two dakka Serpents at 750 is all the anti-air you need. If you want to go that route, of course.

I never run any anti air but my serpents and it works just swell.

Dont run flakk walkers, or dark reapers ever for your anti air.
reaper exarch is getting what, 2 s7 shots? thats terrible.
War walkers getting 4-6 depending on how many walkers you use is just crazy expensive and not worth it.

Warp spiders, and crimson hunter are the way to go

Something to keep in mind with the Dark Reaper is if you upgrade him to rock fast shot and the Eldar Missile Launcher, he's pretty fantastic against anything relying on a Jink Save. You're only paying 10 points for the flakk missiles, which I think is pretty minimal. Two S7 missiles at BS5 that ignores Jink saves is decent considering Dark Reapers are pretty solid units on their own. Having something that's decent against all comers lists that happens to have a cheap anti-air option (granted, a fairly risky one) is always nice.

And if you run into other Eldar, he can singlehandedly hunt down their grav tanks. You can murder Space Marine bikers with that squad with ease. Etc. I don't know why people forget about Dark Reapers ability to negate jink saves, but they often do. If you do run Illic, he's actually great alongside them because the way it's worded, the UNIT has the ability as long as any model is rocking the Wargear they have, so you could have Illic sniping and ignoring Jink saves if you so needed.

As others pointed out, if you plan to run a Crimson Hunter, you'll probably want an Autarch for an HQ. Getting it in after enemies also bring their fliers in is advantageous.

SRSFACE wrote:
Something to keep in mind with the Dark Reaper is if you upgrade him to rock fast shot and the Eldar Missile Launcher, he's pretty fantastic against anything relying on a Jink Save. You're only paying 10 points for the flakk missiles, which I think is pretty minimal. Two S7 missiles at BS5 that ignores Jink saves is decent considering Dark Reapers are pretty solid units on their own. Having something that's decent against all comers lists that happens to have a cheap anti-air option (granted, a fairly risky one) is always nice.

And if you run into other Eldar, he can singlehandedly hunt down their grav tanks. You can murder Space Marine bikers with that squad with ease. Etc. I don't know why people forget about Dark Reapers ability to negate jink saves, but they often do. If you do run Illic, he's actually great alongside them because the way it's worded, the UNIT has the ability as long as any model is rocking the Wargear they have, so you could have Illic sniping and ignoring Jink saves if you so needed.

As others pointed out, if you plan to run a Crimson Hunter, you'll probably want an Autarch for an HQ. Getting it in after enemies also bring their fliers in is advantageous.

The one thing people forget about dark reapers is how easily they are killed. Take a 5 man tactical squad. now make them toughness 3, and a high priority target. Now lets see them survive past turn one

48" range, man. Yeah they die if people fire at them, but how many armies are fielding long range Rate of Fire weapons in a 750 list?

I've had a lot of success with mine. The only thing that tends to fire at them people don't feel bad about wasting on them rather than units that are more pressing are, like, Heavy Bolters really. They are an excellent unit to man your Aegis Defense Line, possibly the best in the codex.

I dont run an adl. I run wave serpents and mobility, and the adl would be a holdback.

yes they have 48 inch range but your making it drastic.
in a dawn of war deployment your 48 inches at most from your enemy, 36 if they deploy all the way up. then they move 6 inches, making the range 30. Thats not that long range. Most armies will be able to deal with them.

Dark reapers have good damage output, but have bad survivabilaty and i fell there are better options to use... ei wraithknight or wave serpent.

Start the Reapers IN a Serpent. That way, they can always shoot at least once. They're a good option, very good, in fact, but not with Flakk missiles. ADL with an Icarus with Fast Shot is fantastic, if you run a gunline.

One other thing - if you run Wave Serpents, you really don't need to fear Heldrakes. All your precious infantry is safe inside the Serpents and Drakes can't vector strike if you stick to the table edge. And if they come close, you move behind them and stick 9-14 S6/7 shots up into their AV10 rear.

Serpents really are gold, when it comes to anti-air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP: Yep, I'm talking about Scatterlaser + Shuriken Cannon combo.

 Araenion wrote:

One other thing - if you run Wave Serpents, you really don't need to fear Heldrakes. All your precious infantry is safe inside the Serpents and Drakes can't vector strike if you stick to the table edge. And if they come close, you move behind them and stick 9-14 S6/7 shots up into their AV10 rear.

Serpents really are gold, when it comes to anti-air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP: Yep, I'm talking about Scatterlaser + Shuriken Cannon combo.

My thoughts exactly

Don't dakka serpents move 6" or be forced to snap shot 1 weapon? I can't remember it to save my life.

Also at 750pts illic would be a cool warlord because hes hard to kill and has split fire so he can hide in a unit of reapers and give them a 3+ cover behind the ADL which could help them live.

You're snapshoting anyway, Serpents don't have Skyfire.

One wave serpent shooting into back armor strips 1.256 hull points on average a turn of shooting. You only need 3 wave serpents to kill the helldrake guaranteed (kindov), and 2 is probobally good enough.

Wave Serpents are looking like the way to go at this point level. Thanks!

It's certainly not practical at 750, but I'm becoming increasingly fond of the idea of sticking Illic with a group of Dark Reapers plus Exarch behind an ADL. Illic gives the Reapers Shrouded (for a 2+ cover save behind the ADL) and Split Fire (so either he or the Exarch can fire the quad gun/Voidbringer/Exarch weapon while everyone else hits a different target). The Reapers give him the rangefinder (ignoring Jink saves), Slow and Purposeful (so they can all move and shoot), and with the Exarch, Night Vision (since Night Fighting nerfs long-range units badly). All kinds of nice synergy there for the future.

Expensive, but if you find a way to fit that into your list go for it.

illic 155

210 wave serpent 5 dire avengers

210 wave serpent 5 dire avengers

dark reapers (whatever upgrades you want with remaning points)

aegis with Icarus cannon

Warp spiders and wave serpents GUT my ravens.