Does the humble Bolter need a buff ?

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**Grumzimus**

Naa bolters are fine. You want fancy stuff, go sternguard. My Thousand Sons just sit on the shelf tbh.

It's the Heavy Bolter that needs a bit of fixing I think... Just little point in taking it these days. Which is a shame for a signature marine weapon. I think some form of rending or something would bring it back to favour.

But Grav guns are the new sexy.

Bolters ain't great unless you're going up against Xenos. If that's the case, get into CC. But they're a fair baseline weapon.

**brother marcus**

I thought special ammo might be a good idea and make it costly to offset the effectiveness of said ammo

But making a Bolter 2 shots would be a good idea because in the fluff they are a rapid fire weapon BUT this would mean storm Bolters would go up a shot ( making grey knights even better at shooting ) and the heavy Bolter would go up Aswel, even though that weapon desperately needs a buff anyway

And I also very rearly use power armour in the open my guys hug cover so hard they might Aswel carry the wall with them just to have a tiny bit of survive ability

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grumzimus wrote:
Naa bolters are fine. You want fancy stuff, go sternguard. My Thousand Sons just sit on the shelf tbh.

It's the Heavy Bolter that needs a bit of fixing I think... Just little point in taking it these days. Which is a shame for a signature marine weapon. I think some form of rending or something would bring it back to favour.

But Grav guns are the new sexy.

Bolters ain't great unless you're going up against Xenos. If that's the case, get into CC. But they're a fair baseline weapon.

Sternguard get wiped off the battlefield very quickly !! And they arnt exactly brilliant "shooting" veterans either

And yes CC that always works well in 6th dosnt it ??

**Martel732**

Peregrine wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
2. That being said, how many non-MC assault units do you commonly see in a competitive environment that aren't apart of a deathstar? List them.

I have no idea, because there isn't really a competitive environment that has sufficient LOS blocking terrain. Tournaments usually have lots of big open fields where gunlines can dominate because the TOs don't have access to enough terrain to make proper tables for everyone.

AP3 might not be *as common* as AP4, but it doesn't NEED to be. Why? Because MEQ armies by nature don't have as many models on the board as 4+ save armies. The AMOUNT of AP3 and volume-of-fire has risen steadily through 5th and 6th edition, but the amount of MEQ you can put on the board hasn't risen by a comparable amount.

It might be rising, but it's still limited to heavy/special weapons. A MEQ army is still going to take a lot of hits that it gets its T4 and armor save against, and that makes a big difference in durability compared to T3/4+ fire warriors or T3/no-save GEQs. Plus, the amount of melee AP 3 hasn't changed all that much and charges with anything short of a death star involve lots of STR 3/4 AP- attacks.

And let's not try to downplay the rise of AP3 here. We have an entire ARMY that just got pseudo-rending for free. Calm down bro.

At short range, with squishy infantry units. Even against Eldar you're still going to face large amounts of AP 4+ weapons, and even against rending weapons a 3+ save is still useful against the 2/3 of the wounds that aren't AP 2.

Not every battlefield should even have LOS blocking terrain. Eastern front of WWII is a good example. The LOS blocking terrain excuse is a getting a bit tiresome. Armies should be balanced both with and without LOS blocking terrain.

**Grumzimus**

Lol, yeah. 6th (tau) edition does hurt CC.

Tbh, first time I've gone up against Sternguard with that ammo was yesterday, killed everyone in the unit other than Kharn.

I think that other than Scars, most marine armies ain't that great at the shooty. But not played the other flavours in the new book.

**StormKing**

Some people were comparing a 12 man firewarriors squad to a tac squad with bolters. Sure the 12 man squad cost half as much but they also have worse bs (they need marker light support) and let's face it firewarriors are bush league in combat.
Sure bolters don't have the same reach as pulse rifles but the marines make up for it with better bs and a better save. They are good in cc just drop pod them in or get them in a rhino.
Bolters are fine, I like them and if I want special ammo I'll go stern guard. I think it's a matter of expensive troops not the bolters.

**da001**

I agree both Bolter and Heavy Bolter need a buff. Specially the Heavy Bolter. They are both iconic weapons yet completely ignored.

Perhaps adding "Shred" to both. After all, is something of a rocket launcher. It blows you up. By the way, I would add Shred to Chainswords and Chainaxes too.

Anyway, I am not sure Marines need a massive buff overall. They are nearly ok. Eldar and Tau are too strong. Look at Nids, Chaos or Sisters to find an army that needs love all over the place. Buffing the humble Bolter (and the other) would be enough for marines.

**BrianDavion**

thinking about it I've concluded that the best cure for what ails Marines would be not revising the bolter but revising the DROP POD.
allow Marines to assault out of a droppod when it arrives and you've IMHO got a minor change that gives Marines a BIIIG boost. as you can drop a squad of marines on top of those gunlines and really get into the chopping.

Perhaps combine this with borrowing the rules from CSMs that allows a tac squad to take a CCW for an additional 2 points per model

**brother marcus**

Exactly my point why can't a .75 high ex bullet ( bigger than grenade mg's mounted on top of humvee's) have a 6's rend as well ?!?! I mean a bolt round is supposed to be able to blast through flack and carapace armour with ease and leave huge craters in power armour !!

It also wouldn't be restricted to just loyal marines I would share the love between chaos, sisters

**Martel732**

chiefbigredman wrote:
Some people were comparing a 12 man firewarriors squad to a tac squad with bolters. Sure the 12 man squad cost half as much but they also have worse bs (they need marker light support) and let's face it firewarriors are bush league in combat.
Sure bolters don't have the same reach as pulse rifles but the marines make up for it with better bs and a better save. They are good in cc just drop pod them in or get them in a rhino.
Bolters are fine, I like them and if I want special ammo I'll go stern guard. I think it's a matter of expensive troops not the bolters.

You still can't get into CC with those methods. The CC stats on marines are a waste.

**BrianDavion**

da001 wrote:
I agree both Bolter and Heavy Bolter need a buff. Specially the Heavy Bolter. They are both iconic weapons yet completely ignored.

Perhaps adding "Shred" to both. After all, is something of a rocket launcher. It blows you up. By the way, I would add Shred to Chainswords and Chainaxes too.

Anyway, I am not sure Marines need a massive buff overall. They are nearly ok. Eldar and Tau are too strong. Look at Nids, Chaos or Sisters to find an army that needs love all over the place. Buffing the humble Bolter (and the other) would be enough for marines.

funny thing is of the three armies you mentioned, 2 of the three would also benifit from a bolter Buff

**brother marcus**

BrianDavion wrote:
thinking about it I've concluded that the best cure for what ails Marines would be not revising the bolter but revising the DROP POD.
allow Marines to assault out of a droppod when it arrives and you've IMHO got a minor change that gives Marines a BIIIG boost. as you can drop a squad of marines on top of those gunlines and really get into the chopping.

Perhaps combine this with borrowing the rules from CSMs that allows a tac squad to take a CCW for an additional 2 points per model

Charging out of a drop pod would be unfair because there would be no counter other than tau's EWO

And marines should be given a cc weapon for free anyway IMO its in a marines basic war gear they are supposed to carry around with them anyway. But cc isn't the point that's the job for assault marines and vanguard (which suck aswell)

**3orangewhips**

chiefbigredman wrote:
Some people were comparing a 12 man firewarriors squad to a tac squad with bolters. Sure the 12 man squad cost half as much but they also have worse bs (they need marker light support) and let's face it firewarriors are bush league in combat.
Sure bolters don't have the same reach as pulse rifles but the marines make up for it with better bs and a better save. They are good in cc just drop pod them in or get them in a rhino.
Bolters are fine, I like them and if I want special ammo I'll go stern guard. I think it's a matter of expensive troops not the bolters.

I don't like that matchup.

Marines hop out of pod/rhino. Probably kill some firewarriors with shooting (if close enough).
Next turn: Shot to death or irrelevancy.
And even if they do get a charge and win- shot to death.

It's not the Tau or the Eldar, I think. It's that the game is designed to favor shooting in every way. So Marines say, "OK, let's shoot. Anyone have anything better than this bolter?"

Answer: Tau and Eldar. It's both the army's internal synergy and synergy with the rules for shooting. They were designed to exploit those rules, and they do (as they should).

Let's hope the BA and Orks book allow us to exploit the assault system.

**StormKing**

3orangewhips wrote:
chiefbigredman wrote:
Some people were comparing a 12 man firewarriors squad to a tac squad with bolters. Sure the 12 man squad cost half as much but they also have worse bs (they need marker light support) and let's face it firewarriors are bush league in combat.
Sure bolters don't have the same reach as pulse rifles but the marines make up for it with better bs and a better save. They are good in cc just drop pod them in or get them in a rhino.
Bolters are fine, I like them and if I want special ammo I'll go stern guard. I think it's a matter of expensive troops not the bolters.

I don't like that matchup.

Marines hop out of pod/rhino. Probably kill some firewarriors with shooting (if close enough).
Next turn: Shot to death or irrelevancy.
And even if they do get a charge and win- shot to death.

It's not the Tau or the Eldar, I think. It's that the game is designed to favor shooting in every way. So Marines say, "OK, let's shoot. Anyone have anything better than this bolter?"

Answer: Tau and Eldar. It's both the army's internal synergy and synergy with the rules for shooting. They were designed to exploit those rules, and they do (as they should).

Let's hope the BA and Orks book allow us to exploit the assault system.

Ya I am going to agree that if you just let them out in the open that you will get shot to death and if you do charge will get over watched to smithereens if you are just out in the open.
I think getting into CC is hard and it should be hard because everyone has guns so ya.
Your right that the game favours shooting and I think it should be that way. You just have to learn to play the terrain and board properly to be able to get into close combat.
Every army offers different things to the game and if some are better at shooting but suck at combat then you just have to learn how to deal with it when playing against them.

Basically I don't think that bolter needs an upgrade, I find my marines do fine against Tau as long as there is enough terrain to creep around to get the shots off.

**louisb1304**

Swastakowey wrote:
I reckon it would be awesome if they had custom ammo layouts for different targets. Before the game you choose the ammo types for each squads bolter weapons. Kinda like the gun on that judge dredd movie except you get one round type.

I dont overly care if they dont need it but i think iw would be awesome. Not that i do marines.

A random ammo type. A 2D6 chart dictates ammo type at the start of the game
2-6 is standard ammo
7-10 is Armour Piercing. AP value of 3+ instead of standard 5+
11-12 is Emperors Fury Explosive tipped. for every roll to wound that results in a 6, a small blast marker is allocated to the wounded member of the targeted squad. Everything under the marker is damaged at AP6 S4. rolls to save/wound taken again.

that's just one idea. But overall I think it works fine at present. As mentioned, the marines are "all rounders" so the Bolter is fine as is to me.

**Lobokai**

Could be something simple like the volkites. If you roll a 5 or 6 to wound (and that would wound), it causes two wounds... or something like that.

**brother marcus**

That would fit fluff well due the the explosive nature of bolt shells however I don't think it would ever happen

**Lobokai**

brother marcus wrote:
That would fit fluff well due the the explosive nature of bolt shells however I don't think it would ever happen

Yeah, agreed.

**Martel732**

chiefbigredman wrote:
3orangewhips wrote:
chiefbigredman wrote:
Some people were comparing a 12 man firewarriors squad to a tac squad with bolters. Sure the 12 man squad cost half as much but they also have worse bs (they need marker light support) and let's face it firewarriors are bush league in combat.
Sure bolters don't have the same reach as pulse rifles but the marines make up for it with better bs and a better save. They are good in cc just drop pod them in or get them in a rhino.
Bolters are fine, I like them and if I want special ammo I'll go stern guard. I think it's a matter of expensive troops not the bolters.

I don't like that matchup.

Marines hop out of pod/rhino. Probably kill some firewarriors with shooting (if close enough).
Next turn: Shot to death or irrelevancy.
And even if they do get a charge and win- shot to death.

It's not the Tau or the Eldar, I think. It's that the game is designed to favor shooting in every way. So Marines say, "OK, let's shoot. Anyone have anything better than this bolter?"

Answer: Tau and Eldar. It's both the army's internal synergy and synergy with the rules for shooting. They were designed to exploit those rules, and they do (as they should).

Let's hope the BA and Orks book allow us to exploit the assault system.

Ya I am going to agree that if you just let them out in the open that you will get shot to death and if you do charge will get over watched to smithereens if you are just out in the open.
I think getting into CC is hard and it should be hard because everyone has guns so ya.
Your right that the game favours shooting and I think it should be that way. You just have to learn to play the terrain and board properly to be able to get into close combat.
Every army offers different things to the game and if some are better at shooting but suck at combat then you just have to learn how to deal with it when playing against them.

Basically I don't think that bolter needs an upgrade, I find my marines do fine against Tau as long as there is enough terrain to creep around to get the shots off.

If what you say is true, then shootier troops should be more expensive. Point values are supposed to reflect the utility of the model on the battlefield. There is no "learn to deal with Eldar". They are just better at what matters in 6th edition. Consequently, they are undercosted or marines or overcosted. Take your pick.

**Django_Unchained**

Martel732 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
But yeah, bolters are fine. It's MEQ as an army that need help.

How do they need help (I'm not challenging you here, I'm just interested to here your thoughts)?

They need either a way to survive the wound spam of Eldar/Tau better or a better way to hit back at range. Because assault might as well not exist right now.

Daemons do quite well with assault.

**da001**

BrianDavion wrote:
da001 wrote:
I agree both Bolter and Heavy Bolter need a buff. Specially the Heavy Bolter. They are both iconic weapons yet completely ignored.

Perhaps adding "Shred" to both. After all, is something of a rocket launcher. It blows you up. By the way, I would add Shred to Chainswords and Chainaxes too.

Anyway, I am not sure Marines need a massive buff overall. They are nearly ok. Eldar and Tau are too strong. Look at Nids, Chaos or Sisters to find an army that needs love all over the place. Buffing the humble Bolter (and the other) would be enough for marines.

funny thing is of the three armies you mentioned, 2 of the three would also benifit from a bolter Buff

Which is the reason I said Bolters should be buffed, not just marines.

**brother marcus**

Yes I agree and maybe give marines, sisters, chaos etc an "Astartes class Bolter"
which guard and inquisition stuff can't have access to because they are stronger ??

**Martel732**

Django_Unchained wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
But yeah, bolters are fine. It's MEQ as an army that need help.

How do they need help (I'm not challenging you here, I'm just interested to here your thoughts)?

They need either a way to survive the wound spam of Eldar/Tau better or a better way to hit back at range. Because assault might as well not exist right now.

Daemons do quite well with assault.

Okay I should have qualified it. Assault doesn't exist for generalists with no access to 2+ rerollable or FMC.

**brother marcus**

I think the best way to fix the Bolter is to make it 2 shots or 3 at rapid fire

Storm bolters are 4 shots

Heavy Bolter 5 shots

Giving them rending on a 6 would make heavy bolters waaaaay op but would bring the normal one into line with everything else

**Martel732**

So it's OP for marines, but for Eldar, rending is fine? Okay then.

**brother marcus**

Yes having more shots and and rending would indeed be op

**easysauce**

bolters are AWESOME...

its the marines that suck,

my 5pt bolter henchment with precience do more damage then marines pt for pt, and are more survivable as i get 3 of em for 15pts, so a guaranteed three wounds regardless of AP.

**Martel732**

brother marcus wrote:
Yes having more shots and and rending would indeed be op

Oh, yes. Both I agree. Frankly, just adding rending to the bolter wouldn't do much.

**Melissia**

Oh yes, give my Sisters of Battle superior weapons. Also my guardsmen!

Oh, you just meant for space snorines. Blah.

**da001**

No way.

A Bolter is a Bolter. Everything said for Marines applies to Chaos Marines and Sisters too. And of all three armies the Sisters need a buff the most.

I hated it when they finally fixed the shotguns being totally useless and then realized they had created an "Astartes Shotgun", and the basic shotgun was still broken.

**Melissia**

I imagine people would be changing their tune if they realized that they were making the Imperial Guard far more powerful by buffing the bolter (or more accurately, heavy bolters and storm bolters).

If you gave my guardsmen 5-hit heavy bolters... let's see... that's... something like 6 mroe twin-linked shots and a dozen more non-linked shots fired every turn.