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Oh, man, a rending heavy bolter... that would making Leman Russes quite powerful.

Maybe what you can have with boltguns is have exploding dice. If you roll a 6, roll that 6 and if you get another 6 you can cause one wound regardless of the target's toughness.

No.
Gauss Flayers are super-science Disintegration beams. Pulse Rifles are superior, stable plasma accelerators. Shuriken weapons are.. a bit daft (seriously, a stiff wind should render them useless). Glorified Assault rifles should be better than them why exactly?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's also a weird thing. Marines aren't generalists. They're an army of elites (at least from a fluff perspective).

One does not exclude the other. They are elite at handling most situations, not at doing one thing and only one thing. That's what the Deathcults and so on are for.

Martel732 wrote:
Not every battlefield should even have LOS blocking terrain. Eastern front of WWII is a good example. The LOS blocking terrain excuse is a getting a bit tiresome. Armies should be balanced both with and without LOS blocking terrain.

That won't ever happen. That can't ever happen. It's impossible to design a game like that unless you design it specifically for a side-board style army.

Terrain provide too many important variables. A dense city scape will limit ranged weapons to below 20", how do you balance 72" Railguns with that? Do you make them overpowered gimmicks on the eastern front while worthless door stoppers in the Berlin suburbs? How would that be balanced? How about armies that are made for close combat gimmick (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar) or the close range gimmick (Eldar, Orks)? 40k isn't Warmachine, you know, where all armies can do everything differently. Even Warmachine is designed with a very specific terrain set up in mind.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I think the guard is feared because their tanks. S8 AP3 (or worse) blasts and lascannons.

Heavy Bolters are not particularly feared, they would welcome a buff.

Just my opinion, of course. Haven´t played against them in a while.

While I don't agree that bolters need tobe more powerful, I'd say that they're more than just .75 caliber assault rifles. They penetrate the target and then explode within it, making them quite deadly, in a different way than the other upper-end infantry weapons.

Lasguns have the stats of assault rifles, by the way.

No.

Its the good basic standard weapon.

Rapidfire 24" S4ap5.

Its fine.

 da001 wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something, but I think the guard is feared because their tanks

Which carry numerous heavy bolters (up to three per tank, and two per chimera).

 Melissia wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something, but I think the guard is feared because their tanks

Which carry numerous heavy bolters (up to three per tank, and two per chimera).

I am still far more concerned about the S8 AP3 Blast.

You're double posting. I already responded to that.

Speaking as a Guard player, adding an additional shot or rending to the heavy bolter would be a great boon to us. Picture pask in a punisher with three heavy bolters, for example.

That's 32 S6 BS: 4 versus vehicles if you add an additional shot. Or, if you add rending, that would 29 S5 shots with 9 rending and they get to reroll failed to wound against MCs. I don't think Tyranid players would like that very much.

Or the Chimera. For 55 points you get to fire 8 S5 AP 4 shots with an additional heavy weapon if you put in a guard squad. Or 6 S5 AP 4 rending shots.

 Melissia wrote:
While I don't agree that bolters need tobe more powerful, I'd say that they're more than just .75 caliber assault rifles. They penetrate the target and then explode within it, making them quite deadly, in a different way than the other upper-end infantry weapons.

Lasguns have the stats of assault rifles, by the way.

I'm sure that "penetrate and explode" is the plan. Looking at the bolt shell diagram here, those things look like they will glance or ricochet a LOT on anything less than a direct hit against hard armor (like a 4+ save for example).

I'll echo earlier statements that the Bolter isn't the problem per se; it's a bit mediocre, lacking any distinct advantage over any other small arm, but marines as a whole, Tactical Marines in particular are absolute crap.

In terms of game design, the bolter is a pretty obvious baseline; everything kind of exists around it. Lasguns can have better volume of fire, but low strength, no AP, shuriken pseudo-rends, but has low range, but is assault as well, etc, etc. It's not a bad weapon, especially when you can get it for cheap like bolter henchmen, but on a 14 point model it's awful.

Considering MEQ troops as a whole, you pay a premium for a statline and an armour which doesn't mean much. There's no denying the volume of fire available at present to a multitude of armies makes a 3+ save not very effective in the shooting phase (and this is important, I'll come back to it later), and the high volume of low AP shooting doesn't help matters either. Paying well over a hundred points for a 10 man squad with little shooting survivability is not attractive, whether they be Chaos, Vanilla or Sisters.

The advantage MEQs really have, to me, is close combat survival. AP3 close combat weapons and attacks are much more uncommon than the equivalent shooting weapons. Dedicated AP2/3 squads are extremely rare in close combat, and are often horrifically expensive (Vanguard Veterans, Warp Talons, Banshees, etc). Marines in close combat will generally live quite a lot longer in my experience than marines being shot at with the aforementioned exceptions and MCs. Even sisters who don't have the same statline can still sit locked in combat against many foes for some time, as the volume of wounds they'll have to save against per-turn is noticeably lower than against shooting.

The shooting bias in the current edition makes using that advantage difficult, but the bolter is another part of the problem. Using the bolter makes the unit in question a dedicated shooting unit; there's no way for them to assault afterwards or engage in any kind of maneuver shenanigans ala Eldar or Tau. Thus, they get shot into little bite sized chunks, if they even get that close considering their poor range and limited delivery mechanisms, as foot slogging sure as hell won't work most of the time.

What I'd like to see is for power-armoured models getting the ability to charge after using rapid fire weapons. Relentless-lite, in effect, allowing these post-human super-soldiers in extremely sophisticated armour to charge someone after double-tapping. It would fit the fluff, and while it wouldn't make the bolter directly better, it would make Tactical Marines, Battle Sisters, Chaos Marines and so on much better generalists; stay back and shoot those close combat units which threaten them, and be able to shoot and charge others; evening the odds with some low-powered small arms fire. It would also make power armour feel a little more unique and impressive than just a 3+ save which falter under a million bullets.

 Melissia wrote:
You're double posting. I already responded to that.

Yeah I noticed. Hit "quote" instead of "edit" and quoted myself.

However, the point about the Bolter is that it is an iconic weapon for at least three armies, and it has no real weight in most battles. You get a squad of Sisters / Marines and what determines their role in battle is the special weapon they carry. Perhaps it is slightly different for Sisters since you will not declare an assault so often.

Given that two armies without bolters just got a big buff (Eldar and Tau), seems a good time to add something to the humble bolter, thus making the rest of the squad count.

The Heavy Bolter is in a worse position concerning marines, didn´t think about the guard.

Anyway, what I will not like is seeing the Bolter changed into a Marines Bolter. The Sisters need this buff even more.

Just because it's iconic doesn't mean it needs to be overpowered.

Maybe the Tau and Eldar shouldn't just be so lol overpowered, how about that.

Torquar wrote:
No.
Gauss Flayers are super-science Disintegration beams. Pulse Rifles are superior, stable plasma accelerators. Shuriken weapons are.. a bit daft (seriously, a stiff wind should render them useless). Glorified Assault rifles should be better than them why exactly?

A pulse rifle yea might be more advanced but the Bolter is supposed to have the greater range

And have you seen the damage a 40mm grenade MG can do walls don't last very long nor do cars and light armoured vehicles and a Bolter has a much bigger caliber !! Almost double the size in fact

I have already admited that having rending would be op and every one moans about bladestorm for it (even me lol) but I think just adding in an extra shot would help bolters and therefore the sucky units that are tactical marines climb up to the same level as other troops

And don't forget guard have a new codex coming soon and I dread to think the amount of ap3 and lasgun shots that my marines are going to have to weather

 Rautakanki wrote:
Maybe the Tau and Eldar shouldn't just be so lol overpowered, how about that.

The ship already sailed on that. They are the new standard.

Maybe make the Bolters something like assault 2/heavy 3? that way they could assault and move without impediment, while if they take up a good position they can unload more shots with better accuracy!

I think the FW raptors have something similar, were if they stand still bolters are heavy 1 rending, due to headshots.

I think the biggest issue with marines isnt so much their stats or abilities, but the lack of ability in game to implement the tactics they would actually use in battle.

A company of marines is 100 guys, and should be able to do some amazing things! The reason they dont do so on the tabletop is that, since 40k is a game and needs to be fair to both players, disallows a lot of tactics and situations that marines would use to get and maintain momentum and advantage.

Think of it this way, in the fluff, marines often decapitate an enemy force by dropping on their leaders and killing them in a precision strike, or run land raiders across the ocean floor to blindside the enemy's read. Tactics like this either dont work (try dropping marines on your enemies heads in a normal game, unless your opponant is new or just sucks they are NOT going to deploy in any way to allow drop pods to come down right next to the targets they need to kill) or are impossible to emulate in a fair gaming environment (in the fluff, marine drop pods work as a weapon of surprise and fear since they dont know you are coming and have no way to defend against them, but in a normal game the moment your opponant sees your list and see pods, well up comes the bubble wrap, etc).

Also, what elite army would EVER pick a battlefield that was devoid of beneficial terrain? This goes back to the LOS blocking terrain argument. In fluff, marines would never deploy against a Tau gunline across an open field unless they literally had zero other options. A stock 40k game could emulate that bad scenario of course, but immediate puts our elite, low body count army on the back foot.

The best way to make marines competitive in the current meta (purely in my opinion of course) would be a lot more LOS blocking terrain. Not too much, but 1-2 good sized pieces need to be there to give us a chance to maneuver and use our advantages before we simply get deleted by weight of fire.

Buffing the bolter is a strange thing, especially because it is the standard upon which everything is based. You can't increase their range because that's tau's shtick. ditto for an increase in strength, especially because that would be HB strength. Mini-rending was added to shuriken weapons to make them not nerfed bolters so that's out the window. IIRC, shred alows you to reroll to wound, which is a tad overpowered against T3 and T4, making them better than S5 . Shred on a heavy bolter would be even worse.

I think boosting bolters to heavy 3/ assault 2 would be a suitable solution, and lend more flexibility to the supposedly flexible tactical squad.

So my vote goes with that idea posted above

Torquar wrote:
And have you seen the damage a 40mm grenade MG can do walls don't last very long nor do cars and light armoured vehicles and a Bolter has a much bigger caliber !! Almost double the size in fact

ummm... bolter fluff puts the bolters at .5 or .75 or 1 an inch in caliber...
not even close to double the size of a 40mm grenade... .5 caliber is only 13mm, the full inch is about 26mm

and bolters DO chew through light vehicles.



everysingle problem with "bolters" that people keep bring up is really just a problem with space marines...

bolters are the 2nd or 3rd best basic infantry weapon in game, beaten only by tau and eldar, who have better tech... even then the eldar lack ranged weapons, the tau lack ... ok nothing really, id kill for str 5 30" range... but thats what storm bolters with psybolt ammo are for...

 iGuy91 wrote:
I think boosting bolters to heavy 3/ assault 2 would be a suitable solution, and lend more flexibility to the supposedly flexible tactical squad.

So my vote goes with that idea posted above

Which would make them one of the most powerful troops in the game. A 10 man tac-team could be firing 30 shots at 24" if they havent moved or 20 shots at 24" if they have and still assault. You could make them have two different profiles though:
24" S4 AP5 Assault 1
12" S4 AP5 Assault 2

That at least would provide them a small buff, without making them tremendously OP.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I think boosting bolters to heavy 3/ assault 2 would be a suitable solution, and lend more flexibility to the supposedly flexible tactical squad.

So my vote goes with that idea posted above

Which would make them one of the most powerful troops in the game. A 10 man tac-team could be firing 30 shots at 24" if they havent moved or 20 shots at 24" if they have and still assault. You could make them have two different profiles though:
24" S4 AP5 Assault 1
12" S4 AP5 Assault 2

That at least would provide them a small buff, without making them tremendously OP.

but hey, it would fit with the fluff! maybe then a company of marines could take a planet after all =P

Hardly....
They would still be out-ranged by tau, who have better guns and range
Suriken weapons still pseudo rend.
This would also benefit several armies, not only marines, notice I never made mention of that.

Maybe switch them to salvo 2/3 instead so they have a reason to switch to pistols instead?

More ST4 shots isn't going to change the outcome of games. Even the catapults on the Dire Avengers are just insult after all the S6/7 injury.

Martel732 wrote:
More ST4 shots isn't going to change the outcome of games. Even the catapults on the Dire Avengers are just insult after all the S6/7 injury.

Then we are opening a whole new can of worms. We're talking about removing the allies matrix, easy acess to Precience for every army under the sun, and price boosts (or having to buy) serpent shields, and price hikes for HYMPs.

No, they need a slight tweak, its really the Tau and Eldar that busted this edition wide open.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More ST4 shots isn't going to change the outcome of games. Even the catapults on the Dire Avengers are just insult after all the S6/7 injury.

Then we are opening a whole new can of worms. We're talking about removing the allies matrix, easy acess to Precience for every army under the sun, and price boosts (or having to buy) serpent shields, and price hikes for HYMPs.

No, they need a slight tweak, its really the Tau and Eldar that busted this edition wide open.

Tau/Eldar are the standard by which everything else must be measured. Unfortunate, but true. There is not rational change to the bolter to assist in the meta. Marines (and everyone else) need to be able to engage Wave Serpents at range and they just can't.

Martel732 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More ST4 shots isn't going to change the outcome of games. Even the catapults on the Dire Avengers are just insult after all the S6/7 injury.

Then we are opening a whole new can of worms. We're talking about removing the allies matrix, easy acess to Precience for every army under the sun, and price boosts (or having to buy) serpent shields, and price hikes for HYMPs.

No, they need a slight tweak, its really the Tau and Eldar that busted this edition wide open.

Tau/Eldar are the standard by which everything else must be measured. Unfortunate, but true. There is not rational change to the bolter to assist in the meta. Marines (and everyone else) need to be able to engage Wave Serpents at range and they just can't.

They can, it's just not very effective. It's a lot more effective against the other Eldar tanks that have more moderate fire power, cost heavy support slots, and do not have an extra line of defence the few rounds you don't shoot the shield.

Really, I think what iGuy91 wrote as a suggestion is a first, decent, step to bringing codexes to balance. Haven't got a clue about the Riptide, honestly, but still need a fix on the Wraithknight.

Marines can kill the Wraithknight. In fact, against poison, the Wraithknight is very fragile for its points. Marines can't do squat to wave serpents at range or jetseers. Except go first and get lucky. Lame.