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Shadows of the warp gives -3 to leadership, daemons of tzeentch have a static +3 to their leadership. Discuss...

Nothing to discuss. They cancel each other out when casting powers.
Since Shadows will lower their LD for all other reasons as well, however, it's not entirely cancelled.

Note that the +3 to their LD is just for Psychic Checks, while the -3 is to their base LD. So it will only cancel each other for Psychic Checks.

Daemons better win their assault, because if they don't, they'll die to Instability. Troops Ld4, and GreatersLd6. Yuck.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Daemons better win their assault, because if they don't, they'll die to Instability. Troops Ld4, and GreatersLd6. Yuck.

Does the new shadows modify their leadership for morale checks? I thought it was just -3 to leadership for the purpose of manifesting psychic powers.

Django_Unchained wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Daemons better win their assault, because if they don't, they'll die to Instability. Troops Ld4, and GreatersLd6. Yuck.

Does the new shadows modify their leadership for morale checks? I thought it was just -3 to leadership for the purpose of manifesting psychic powers.

It's any Psyker gets -3 LD period. For any use.

Django_Unchained wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Daemons better win their assault, because if they don't, they'll die to Instability. Troops Ld4, and GreatersLd6. Yuck.

Does the new shadows modify their leadership for morale checks? I thought it was just -3 to leadership for the purpose of manifesting psychic powers.

It's a straight -3 modifier to LD. No strings attached.

I don't agree with the idea of 'cancelling each other out.' Should we be informed to apply a modifier then we apply the modifier, and no amount of analogue thinking or logic changes that. It doesn't matter that some where down the equation the inverse modifier is also being applied, both are still being applied and need to always be taken into consideration. After all; there are situations where we are required to modify or remove an existing modifier, and if you have not included it because 'they cancel' then the end result will always be wrong.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Daemons better win their assault, because if they don't, they'll die to Instability. Troops Ld4, and GreatersLd6. Yuck.

Only for their psykers, so mostly tzeentch

Right because everyone was rocking mono khorne as of late

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't agree with the idea of 'cancelling each other out.' Should we be informed to apply a modifier then we apply the modifier, and no amount of analogue thinking or logic changes that. It doesn't matter that some where down the equation the inverse modifier is also being applied, both are still being applied and need to always be taken into consideration. After all; there are situations where we are required to modify or remove an existing modifier, and if you have not included it because 'they cancel' then the end result will always be wrong.

So you don't think that X +3 -3 = X ?

Fragile:
It is written as X+3-3=X, and not X=X, for a reason.

The whole equation is important and parts shouldn't just be cropped off because "analog thinking" allows us to find the inverse value somewhere else down the equation and remove it on the belief it won't change the end result. Yes, in many cases that sort of thinking does make things faster but it has one big flaw: We get too comfortable using it that we stop looking at the whole equation. That will eventually lead to a mistake occurring, such as a modifier not being applied because we have become too comfortable with not applying it.

So I state, again, that it is important to apply every modifier the rule states applies.

Well the question was do the +3 and -3 cancel each other out. And your overthinking the issue.

Even then they do not cancel each other out, simply because there is no 'cancels out' mechanic within the Rules as Written for modifiers.

No, but math does allow you to cancel out portions of an equation.

Perhaps I am over thinking it, perhaps I am not explaining it as well as I should. My view on 'cancellation' in this regards is that it is being done at the 'Rule level,' in that players are looking at rules and stating 'this one cancels that out so we don't have to bother about it.' I personally believe you should take all Rules and Modifiers into consideration, adding them all to the equation in this case, in order to ensure you get the correct answer every time. So while it is possible to 'balance out' in math, it is good being analog thinkers at time because it does make it easier, the equation will still read as X-3+3=X because the modifiers are being considered.

Very important, because as I mentioned before:
Getting into the habit of stating rule A and rule B cancel out makes it easier to overlook one of the two rules in situations where they do not cancel out.

Not sure if I've missed something on this, but it would matter in some sense. Take a Ld8 Tzeench Daemon for example: Applying Shadows first would make him Ld5, then Tzeench would raise it back to Ld8, no problem there, they effectively cancel each other out. If however, you apply Tzeench first, he becomes Ld10, the maximum. Shadows would then reduce it to Ld7, a small but noticeable difference.

What is BRB order of operations?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Not sure if I've missed something on this, but it would matter in some sense. Take a Ld8 Tzeench Daemon for example: Applying Shadows first would make him Ld5, then Tzeench would raise it back to Ld8, no problem there, they effectively cancel each other out. If however, you apply Tzeench first, he becomes Ld10, the maximum. Shadows would then reduce it to Ld7, a small but noticeable difference.

Not correct if you add the 3 first you get 11, 11-3 is 8. You don't cap at 10 (or 0) until the end of the process as you have no permission to interrupt the equation process.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Not sure if I've missed something on this, but it would matter in some sense. Take a Ld8 Tzeench Daemon for example: Applying Shadows first would make him Ld5, then Tzeench would raise it back to Ld8, no problem there, they effectively cancel each other out. If however, you apply Tzeench first, he becomes Ld10, the maximum. Shadows would then reduce it to Ld7, a small but noticeable difference.

That's not how modifiers work. They're all applied at the same time.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Not sure if I've missed something on this, but it would matter in some sense. Take a Ld8 Tzeench Daemon for example: Applying Shadows first would make him Ld5, then Tzeench would raise it back to Ld8, no problem there, they effectively cancel each other out. If however, you apply Tzeench first, he becomes Ld10, the maximum. Shadows would then reduce it to Ld7, a small but noticeable difference.

Except that isn't how multiple modifiers actually works. Everything is applied at the same time, the you cap as needed