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Compared to other loyalists, SW are OP. Now they are still Eldar/Tau meat for the most part, but among meqs, they are just crazy, crazy good. I've been listening to SW players justify this for years now.

That list of "disadvantages" up above is a joke. Try another marine chapter sometime and see how nerfed they are in comparsion. It's bad that the new C:SM is only *arguably* better than SW 5th edition codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Compared to other loyalists, SW are OP. Now they are still Eldar/Tau meat for the most part, but among meqs, they are just crazy, crazy good. I've been listening to SW players justify this for years now.

That list of "disadvantages" up above is a joke. Try another marine chapter sometime and see how nerfed they are in comparsion. It's bad that the new C:SM is only *arguably* better than SW 5th edition codex.

But how can they be OP when they die in droves like normal Marines as you claim.

Because there are different tiers of OP.

Compared to other meqs, SW are indeed OP. But in the scheme of the game, all meqs are outclassed by Xeno firepower lists.

SW advantages just don't matter as much against lists that have no intention of getting into CC or even getting close.

So you hate the Space Wolves becouse they are better?
You want us to get Nerfed Becouse we are better?

Well lets hope that Blood Angels get Nerfed!

That is not the aditute I am going for.

If you look thought this thread of what we want.
A NICE AND BALLANCED CODEX!

This is what we want for every codex. Two Codex were build Over Powered if Abused corectly. That is no reason to take it out on us.
The New Space Marine Codex can pull off some prety good builds that are not Over Powered.
That is no reason to take it out on us.
6th Edition gave Blood Angels a Hit
That is no reason to take it out on us.

I have also Played Blood Angels in 6th a few times and my only loss was when I failed a 3" Assualt and then the Orks succssed in an 11" Assualt.

I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?

If you balance SW amongst meqs, they need nerfs. If you balance them amongst all possible codices, they actually need buffs. This paradox is why I consider GW extremely incompetent.

Oh, and if GW insists on having good and bad codices, the SW have NEVER had their turn on the bottom. EVER. They're due for a terrible codex. Lots of karma is owed.

Martel732 wrote:
I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?

If you balance SW amongst meqs, they need nerfs. If you balance them amongst all possible codices, they actually need buffs. This paradox is why I consider GW extremely incompetent.

Well I am sorry you are filled with hate. I only Hated one thing in WH40k and that was the stupid ing DoM.
I personaly hope that the 6th Edition Codex: Blood Anges get what I want from the 6th Edition Space Wolf Codex somehting Ballanced.

As far as the Current Space Maraine Codex I think we are very close to them, but that depends on how you scale OP.
If it goes from Ballanced to OP, then you are right, but if it goes Ballanced, Better, Suppieror, Over Powered, then you are not correct.

Grey hunters are so much better than the troop choices for C:SM (even bikes, I'd argue) that the C:SM toys would have to be unhinged to make up for it. They are not.

It just so happens that Eldar and Tau don't even play the same game as meqs, so the utter superiority of the Grey Hunter means nothing to them.

I can almost guarantee you that BA will suck in 6th. Especially if they don't get access to grav. They'll be right there with the DA and I'll probably be out until 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Better, Suppieror, Over Powered, "

Better is just less OP than superior. They are all different degrees of OP.

Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get:
>Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.

What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.

What White Scars Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run

What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.

What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR

What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)

What Salamander Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]

What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn

Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.

So you hate the Space Wolves becouse they are better?
You want us to get Nerfed Becouse we are better?

Well SW have been OP for two editions (2nd and 5th) they usually have been SM + 1 for quite sometime..

Generally the only other MEQ Top tier have been CSM (3rd) BA (3rd), and GK (5th)

Didn't really help that the 17 point GH (compared to 16 cost tac marines) suddenly dropped to CSM(4th) 15, giving them all the advantages and still being far more efficient then a tac marine in the same edition while having all their benefits and bonuses at the time.

But whatever, space wolves still wanna be SM + 1, I can understand that.

SM+1 is Better not OP.
We also Pay for everything, we are not a cheep Codex unless we go out with minimal upgrades.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get:
>Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.

What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.

What White Scars Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run

What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.

What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR

What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)

What Salamander Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]

What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn

Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.

Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are. You don't play competitively, so I understand why you don't understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
SM+1 is Better not OP.
We also Pay for everything, we are not a cheep Codex unless we go out with minimal upgrades.

Better IS OP. It's just not as OP as Eldar, who say, "Your list dies to the man from 36" away". For what Grey Hunters get, they do NOT pay a fair price.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get:
>Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.

What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.

What White Scars Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run

What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.

What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR

What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)

What Salamander Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]

What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn

Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.

Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
SM+1 is Better not OP.
We also Pay for everything, we are not a cheep Codex unless we go out with minimal upgrades.

Better IS OP. It's just not as OP as Eldar, who say, "Your list dies to the man from 36" away". For what Grey Hunters get, they do NOT pay a fair price.

Could you expand further.

OP is something you can not overcome, Better requires work to overcome.

No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill. Small differences and advantages can make this statement true. That's why balancing a game is difficult and requires expert judgment.

This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".

GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.

Also, I didn't see counter attack on your list of GH advantages.

Martel732 wrote:
No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill.

This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".

GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.

You know you are become a broken Record.

All Marines Suck Exept for the Totaly Overpowered and Broken Grey Hunters
Seems to be the only thing you can contripute.
You also keep Derailing "Space Marine" Threadt with your "Marines Suck" Montra.
When are you going to add somthing constructive to an conversation?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill.

This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".

GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.

You know you are become a broken Record.

All Marines Suck Exept for the Totaly Overpowered and Broken Grey Hunters
Seems to be the only thing you can contripute.
You also keep Derailing "Space Marine" Threadt with your "Marines Suck" Montra.
When are you going to add somthing constructive to an conversation?

What do you suggest? I can't magically change the flaws of the marines. Most marine players are reduced to praying for LoS blocking terrain. That's pitiful in my book, which means marines need outside help to compete against Xenos.

You are also misrepresenting my position. GH are only OP compared to other meqs. They are the cream of the meqs. There is no fluff justification for the GH being so much better than all other possible meqs. I'm very jaded on marines. I have played with them and against them so many times that I have likely gotten into the "familiarity breeds contempt" zone.

This observation is *completely orthogonal* to the fact that Eldar/Tau burn meqs to the ground, invaliding power armor as a key feature of space marines.

My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.

Col. Dash wrote:
My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.

Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.

Martel732 wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.

Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.

Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.

I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.





As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.

 Anpu42 wrote:

If you look thought this thread of what we want.
A NICE AND BALLANCED CODEX!

Which, funnily enough, is what myself and Martel and everyone else who doesn't play Space Wolves want too.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.

Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.

Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.

I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.





As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.

You forgot scatter lasers, serpent shields, and missile pod broadsides. Go outside the crappy Imperial heavy weapon sandbox. Basically, it's the "swiss army gun" in 6th ed that makes marine tanks basically tissue paper.

Yes, GH are not the fail that are tactical squads. Your reasons are spot on, and summarized it in two sentences. Good job.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get:
>Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.

What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.

What White Scars Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run

What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.

What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR

What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)

What Salamander Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]

What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get:
>A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn

Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.

Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are. You don't play competitively, so I understand why you don't understand.

I'll be very honest...for that remark Martel I want to take a foam bat to your head. if you look at things from that perspective why the heck do you care what happens to marines when Taudar is right over there being cheesy and boring?

Each of the things Anpu clearly show why each of the other chapters have powerful troops choices. And before you start saying how they aren't I've read the SW codex up and down and have heard how they have changed from guys playing the army since it's debut along with most of 40K so I can honestly tell you when you look at all those benefits that the current SM get GH aren't the big scary troop anymore. Especially since now a days the meta has taken to dakka dakka instead of CC.

Much like how you apparently can say how wrong Anpu is I can match you in how wrong YOU are in your assumptions. The only thing GH have a boost on is Mid-Range Defense because of Counter Attack and the other small boosts. But what the other Marines can do...they aren't limited to Mid Range let along assault. From the words of Zebra yes hey are a bit...schizophrenic on the field...Which I'm only taking the words of other's on that really. I still have my personal views upon them but hey to each their own I suppose...in fact...That's what I say to this comment chain as a whole....To Each Their Own...

And I give up trying to understand why the hate on big wolves? Just...ah I quit...Humans...so dang confusing...

I care because I've been watching SW be better than all other meqs since 1994. That's why.

If you think marines have "powerful" troop choices, you need to hit yourself with your own foam bat. GH are still better than anything he listed, particularly in a mirror match against other meqs, since meqs can't burn your GH to the ground like Xenos.

My statements aren't assumptions. The one time I army swapped with SW in 6th, the guy threw one of my BA models across the room he was so upset with the results. Because he though BA were supposed to be a "fair matchup". I tabled him.

Martel732 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.

Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.

Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.

I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.





As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.

You forgot scatter lasers, serpent shields, and missile pod broadsides. Go outside the crappy Imperial heavy weapon sandbox. Basically, it's the "swiss army gun" in 6th ed that makes marine tanks basically tissue paper.

Yes, GH are not the fail that are tactical squads. Your reasons are spot on, and summarized it in two sentences. Good job.

Fine, how's this:
Against low strength and good AP, Thunderwolves perform worse. Against high strength and bad AP, Rhinos perform worse. If you're complaining that anti-light-tank weapons are good against light tanks, then I don't know what to tell you, but in the broad spectrum of things, Thunderwolves are vulnerable to a lot more weapons and attacks than even cheap tanks are. Besides, there are a lot more boltguns/Pulse Rifles/gauss blasters/Shootas/devourer rifles than there are missile launchers, death rays, missile pods, and Rokkits.

I guess my complaint is that anti-light-tank weapons are too ubiquitous in Xeno codices. Because anti-light-tank weapons also rock against meqs because they wound on 2+. And S7 is literally a disaster against bikers.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess my complaint is that anti-light-tank weapons are too ubiquitous in Xeno codices. Because anti-light-tank weapons also rock against meqs because they wound on 2+. And S7 is literally a disaster against bikers.

Fair enough. I don't think there's a single Ork List that doesn't bring a ton of Lootas to the field, an Eldar list that doesn't spam Wave Serpents, etc.

No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.

Theoretically, 2+ armor would be the counter to this, but the way GW price points 1 W models with 2+ saves, they just get spammed to death too. We should start calling the game WoundSpamHammer.

I don't even play SW but I came up with a great idea for an AA unit for them.

Basically...it's a giant harpoon gun.

Nothing quite said space wolf to me like giant arrows/spear throwers.

S8 AP3 Spear with a 30" range that automatically forces an MC to switch to glide if it is wounded or forces a flier to switch to hover if possible.

Now obviously there are kinks in the idea...but I wish this was a real thing.

OR, you could make it work like long distance magna grapples.

Martel732 wrote:
No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.

Coincidentally, Grey Hunters have a pretty good way to get around this, considering how great they are at Drop Pod spam. You can't shoot someone who isn't on the field... And 24 Boltguns + 6 Special Weapons in your backfield on Turn One can really hurt.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.

Coincidentally, Grey Hunters have a pretty good way to get around this, considering how great they are at Drop Pod spam. You can't shoot someone who isn't on the field... And 24 Boltguns + 6 Special Weapons in your backfield on Turn One can really hurt.

Well, sorta. But with Tau, you've got EWO and with Eldar, they assault you with the immortal seer council and the Wave Serpents just run away and keep shooting the next turn. Drop pods have to do crippling damage on the alpha strike or they are usually dead in the water.

Martel732 wrote:
I care because I've been watching SW be better than all other meqs since 1994. That's why.

If you think marines have "powerful" troop choices, you need to hit yourself with your own foam bat. GH are still better than anything he listed, particularly in a mirror match against other meqs, since meqs can't burn your GH to the ground like Xenos.

My statements aren't assumptions. The one time I army swapped with SW in 6th, the guy threw one of my BA models across the room he was so upset with the results. Because he though BA were supposed to be a "fair matchup". I tabled him.

You also seem to have a grasp of scale. It seems every Unit is either Overpowered or is Sucks
What is a fair and ballanced unit out there in your opiniion?