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 Melissia wrote:
Also female Space Wolves just because I would giggle maniacally at the response on this forum if that were to happen.

As long as they didn't look slender and delicate like basically all other female warrior models, I'd be fine with that.

You know AlmightyWalrus something we agree on. I am not forced to keep reading this.
The same as people aren't forced to spam up this thread going round in circles wittering on about how Space Wolves are OP or whatever. State the point once and move along, as seeing the same thing regurgitated over and over is getting tiresome.
If people think they are too OP or should be nerfed, then start a "what would we like to see nerfed next thread" and leave what was meant to be something fun alone.

It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.

 dantay_xv wrote:

It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.

It started as a thread asking people what they want from the 6th ed Space Wolves Codex. We're answering, just not in the way you want.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:

It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.

It started as a thread asking people what they want from the 6th ed Space Wolves Codex. We're answering, just not in the way you want.

That's why I unsubcribed like 6 pages back...just checking in to see if the fun came back...nope.

 dantay_xv wrote:
You know AlmightyWalrus something we agree on. I am not forced to keep reading this.
The same as people aren't forced to spam up this thread going round in circles wittering on about how Space Wolves are OP or whatever. State the point once and move along, as seeing the same thing regurgitated over and over is getting tiresome.
If people think they are too OP or should be nerfed, then start a "what would we like to see nerfed next thread" and leave what was meant to be something fun alone.

It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.

There's nothing fun about the Space Wolves consistently being better than all other meqs. I'll let the Mutual Admiration Society have their thread back now. I guess I'm just the bad guy. LOL

Well I would like to apologies for keep getting sucked into the “Quit Nerfing Us”. I wanted this to be fun and open discussion.

I you see me sucked into it again, please tell me to stop it.

On the subject of the Long Fangs:

I personally think there is little wrong with them. A lot of people back in 5th jumped on the 3x Long Fang 5x Missile Launcher SPAM list and gave them a bad name. Especially when a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone and Storm Shield (I usually added MotW to mine), but after a few games I was finding the cost of the Terminator are a waist of points, the Cyclone was worth it but not the 2+/3++ Save that never got used due to cover saves.
In 6th they are not as good as they seemed to be (At least that is what keeps being said.) for some reason. Mostly I think the way Cover does not mean as much. I found myself paying for the ADL with a quad gun and a Wolf Guard manning the Gun,

I do have two Long Fang Packs:
>1st Long Fangs: 1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers.
>2nd Long Fangs: 5x Missile Launchers.
Now this is because when the 5th edition Codex came out I decided to rebuild my Long Fangs that I had cannibalized for other marine Armies. So I dived into my bits box and came out with 1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon and about 10 Missile Launchers.
So I threw the two together thinking the 5x Missile Launchers was going to be my “Go-To” Long Fangs. However after a few games I was finding the Mix-Matched Long Fang Pack was doing better over the long run. It was giving me a lot of flexibility. If I needed Anti-Tank, I had the 2 Las-Cannons and the 2x Missile Launchers, I could usually find something got the Heavy Bolter to fire at like Spore Mines or an Ork Mob. If I needed Anti-Infantry I could fire a pair of Frag Missiles and the Heavy Bolter, I could usually find something to shoot the Las-Cannons at. This was great flexibility, but not overwhelming.
However when 6th came out I added a Rune Priest with Divination to the mix and they become more deadly, but then again not “Game Braking”.

What I want and what I think they need are two different things.
>Want: Auspex (and if we get Grav Weapons: Grav-Guns and/or Grav-Cannons)
>Need: Flakk Missiles

Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.

They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.

 Anpu42 wrote:
On the subject of the Long Fangs:

I personally think there is little wrong with them. A lot of people back in 5th jumped on the 3x Long Fang 5x Missile Launcher SPAM list and gave them a bad name. Especially when a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone and Storm Shield (I usually added MotW to mine), but after a few games I was finding the cost of the Terminator are a waist of points, the Cyclone was worth it but not the 2+/3++ Save that never got used due to cover saves.

What is wrong with them is that they get access to an extra heavy weapon, plus a special weapon, plus the ability to split their fire that no other devastators get, even though ALL marines are just as long lived. On top of that they do it more cheaply than baseline devastators as well. That is why long fangs are looked at sideways. I find them a perfect example of how clueless GW is when it comes to building armies and including any kind of balance in the game. I've got no problems with Long fangs being "better". That is kind of neat, but I have long had a problem with them being "better" AND "cheaper". Sure make them uber-super-awesomesauce-devastators, but then also give them that uber-super-awesomesauce unit pricing as well. Instead they got they "regular devastators are better" pricing when long fangs are much better.

I love my wolf army and have long loved the space wolves in the background from back in the days when you could actually field an actual model of Leman Russ, but the current incarnation of the codex has a lot of similar BS lacking in balance. That is why there are plenty of voices in this thread complaining of such.

Skriker

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.

They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.

That is an intresting concept and would not mind it.
Or remove them from the FOC entirly and making them 1 per HQ, but they would have to change our double FOC or 1 per two HQ's.

Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.

I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)

Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.

I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.

They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.

I agree with the long fangs comments.

As for the blood claws, no thanks. Don't want to have to convert mine to carapace instead of power armor. I might, though, if those in scout armor took up less room in a land raider. Why yes I *did* cram 32 blood claws into my land raider crusader.

Skriker

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.

I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)

Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.

I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.

Heck you could leave them with thier CCW (The Chain Swords look to cool) but limit them to +1 Attack on the Assualt, added in with the True Grit, but that might get to comlpecated for GW

Yeah, Grey Hunters started off as basic Marines with +1 Ws (back when +1 Ws was a bigger deal than +1 Attack), then they got True Grit (as the developers tried to figure out a way to make GH better in CC than a marine without giving them a whole +1 attack), then they got the ability to carry a CCW/bolter/bolt pistol all at once.

I think True Grit was probably the better option there. It also actually gave you a reason to take Blood Claws (because GH weren't good on the charge).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.

I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)

Daemonhunter here...I miss True Grit too...Did you know that if you math-hammer out New Grey Knights versus Old Daemonhunter Grey Knights, the old ones win? Even when assaulted? True Grit was the bomb.

 Skriker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.

They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.

I agree with the long fangs comments.

As for the blood claws, no thanks. Don't want to have to convert mine to carapace instead of power armor. I might, though, if those in scout armor took up less room in a land raider. Why yes I *did* cram 32 blood claws into my land raider crusader.

Skriker

Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.

Remember Grey Hunters Do cost more the Norma Space Marines, by 1 point.

This is why ther Space Marines +1

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.

Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.

Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.

Skriker

You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.

Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.

Skriker

You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.

Can't skyrocket something already at max.

I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I do all of the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I do all of the time.

That's great, but doesn't change the fact that they are significantly worse than GH.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I do all of the time.

That's great, but doesn't change the fact that they are significantly worse than GH.

I have never claimed them to be better than Grey Hunters.

I realize that, but that why *I* never see them used. Because everyone knows not to take them.

I truly don't care what special snowflake powers the SW get *as long as they pay for them*. You know, like how the Elder don't pay enough for Wave Serpents, which makes it an OP unit?

But going forward, all codices need undercosted units to compete with Taudar, so that puts us back to square one.

Martel732 wrote:
I realize that, but that why *I* never see them used. Because everyone knows not to take them.

I truly don't care what special snowflake powers the SW get *as long as they pay for them*. You know, like how the Elder don't pay enough for Wave Serpents, which makes it an OP unit?

But going forward, all codices need undercosted units to compete with Taudar, so that puts us back to square one.

But we are paying for for our "Special Powers"
+1 Point for the 2nd CCW
Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics
The Wolf Standard Cost Points
The MotW Cost Points
The only thing we get for free is the 2nd Special Weapon and then if you don't take both the same your Maxed out Pack looses all focus.

"+1 Point for the 2nd CCW "

I don't know how to point this, because this is too cheap against non-Xeno shooting and useless against Xeno shooting.

"Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics "

Same as above. This is completely OP for a chapter tactic when up against another list that might contemplate assault. Not so much against Xeno shooting.

GW has made even price pointing a GH very difficult. I think, though, that they were just too good for 17 pts in 5th. They should stay 17 pts compared to a tac marine with access to inferior chapter tactics in 6th. There are just too many "assault" units that can't even contemplate assaulting the basic GH squad. That property should come at a premium, not just 1 pt. This would put SW at a disadvantage against dedicated shooting lists, I realize, but they should have weaknesses compared to other marine chapters.

Martel732 wrote:
"+1 Point for the 2nd CCW "

I don't know how to point this, because this is too cheap against non-Xeno shooting and useless against Xeno shooting.

"Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics "

Same as above. This is completely OP for a chapter tactic when up against another list that might contemplate assault. Not so much against Xeno shooting.

GW has made even price pointing a GH very difficult. I think, though, that they were just too good for 17 pts in 5th. They should stay 17 pts compared to a tac marine with access to inferior chapter tactics in 6th. There are just too many "assault" units that can't even contemplate assaulting the basic GH squad. That property should come at a premium, not just 1 pt. This would put SW at a disadvantage against dedicated shooting lists, I realize, but they should have weaknesses compared to other marine chapters.

I don’t know what to say, I am done arguing with you for right now. You have show a unreasonable bias against Space Wolves so no discussion can be viable with you.

What in my above post was unreasonable? Was anything I stated untrue? How was it biased? I just don't think you like the truth of the situation. GH are way too good against other meqs.

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.

And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.

And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?

Skriker

Just saying that's why I never see them. In fact, I can't remember the last time I played a non-drop pod SW list. Playing against SW for me is an exercise in mitigating the alpha strike an then running away while shooting back at them.