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Martel732 wrote:
Just saying that's why I never see them. In fact, I can't remember the last time I played a non-drop pod SW list. Playing against SW for me is an exercise in mitigating the alpha strike an then running away while shooting back at them.

Yes you KEEP saying it and you've already said it plenty. I added the "Yep grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?" part to my posts so you specifically didn't have to say it again, but you did anyway. Time to get out and play elsewhere. Not every space wolf army in the world is drop pod obsessed. I have a single drop pod with my wolves solely because I found myself with one of the battle force boxes so decided to use it to drop my wolf guard on the enemy from time to time, as the only other marine army I have nowadays is Dark Angels and the pod doesn't fit there. Really depends on points level, though. It doesn't come out usually until 2000 points and a single drop pod with a squad of 7 wolf guard is hardly ruining an entire 2000 army on its own in super fast order, but it will give the opponent something to think about while I move other units into position.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.

And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?

Skriker

I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.

And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?

Skriker

I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.

You forgot Fun!

It's a lot like DC piling out of a LR. If you can use GH to clear out the expendable units, it's probably fatal. You are counting on the opponent not being able to pop the LR. This isn't a crazy thing to bank on, but Eldar and Daemons can both do it pretty easy.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a lot like DC piling out of a LR. If you can use GH to clear out the expendable units, it's probably fatal. You are counting on the opponent not being able to pop the LR. This isn't a crazy thing to bank on, but Eldar and Daemons can both do it pretty easy.

Risks come with the territory. Sometimes the redeemer hits the enemy line, flames things to cinders while my blood claws charge out and start ripping things apart and sometimes it doesn't happen that way. In my particular group your risks mean nothing for 2 very good reasons: I am the only daemon player so my daemons are not going to be popping my land raider any time soon unless I am playing against myself, and I used to have the only eldar army in the group too which has been long sold off before 6th edition came into being. So my chances for getting across the board with my redeemer against my regular opponents is actually pretty good.

Skriker

What's up with the skewed play groups? With no Daemons or Eldar, even BA begin to look playable.

Martel732 wrote:
What's up with the skewed play groups? With no Daemons or Eldar, even BA begin to look playable.

Well we do thing differently:
Eldar Players still play their Banshees
Imperial Guard Players still play their Ogryn
Tau players only bring one Riptide without Eldar Allies so they can bring out their Bobsleds.
Space Would Players pulls out there Björn, Blood Claws and Lone Wolves.
Space Marine Players pull out their MotF so they can take out 6 Dreadnaughts and not Use Iron Hands
Raven Guard Army Player pulls out his 10 Model Vanguard Vets with Paired Lighting Claws and Jump Packs to act as Shrike’s Body Guard.

Why do we do it? Mostly because we like the Models, Conversions and Units and always will no mater the rules. It is about just having fun.
What would be a normal 2 hour games take us 3-4 hours because we are having to much fun, it is the 40k that is the excuse to get to gather, show off our models and blow the Holy out of each other.
Even our house rules are about making Fluffy Armies, Salamanders being able to take Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads instead of a Heavy Bolter. Leaving Lumbering Behemoth as it is writing in the book and ignoring the FAQ so The Imperial Guard player can still play his Leman Russ Demolisher and able to fire his 3 Heavy Flamers for his Conscript Army.
We have never deeded to Restrict Heldrake’s, because there is only one and it’s my Terminator 2 HK as a Proxy. I usually take the Reaper Cannon version, at least until I just got my Dragon Riders of Berk Toothless toy. Why am I going to take the Bale-Flamer, because he is a Dragon I am shoving on a flight base. If I can get my hands on the right model he is going to have a rider.

I used to play in the “Competitive Environment” for 2 Decades and then one day I looked up as two guys almost got into a fight over some rule. My response was this I never want to do this again. I was not having fun; in fact I don’t think anyone was having fun. So I got some others that wanted a change and started playing away from the “Competitive Environment”. We have had a few new guys show up and quit our group because we did not take the game serious enough. I don’t even want to think about there reaction to one of guys making a Ravenwing Army using MLP: FIM Grab Bag Figures.
I once got a 1st round Forfeit Win in 2nd Edition because my Space Wolves were Primer Grey not Space Wolf Grey. I have had people who refuse to play my Imperial Guard because maybe 20% of was GW Models in a Pick-Up-Game even though everything was Painted and WYSIWYG, though his Army was only half primered and a lot was missing arms and heads.

This is why I don’t play in a “Competitive Environment”.

Welcome to real life where non competitive choices actually work very well because the one hard counter is missing. Unless your gaming store is increadibly crowded there are probably only 8-10 regulars in any one gaming group, Its very possible that not all armies are represented. And if its a fun over WAAC group, you may never see a net list on the table,

As for blood claws, everyone thinks they are a non-competitve choice until they show up on your table flank, 17 models strong and fearless. Suddenly the entire rest of the SW army doesn't seem all that important and that usually leads to a major mistake.

Martel's just one of those people who doesn't have fun and apparently believes that no one else should either.

I feel like stating up a thread for us Fluffy, layed back Players, but it will just be a magnet for "Ultra-Competative-Players"

Anpu42 wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.

Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.

Skriker

You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.

Why? Give them a plastic boxed set, make them Ld7, Ws4, 4+ save and maybe, ohhh, I dunno, 10 or 11pts each, unit size 10-20.

Sure, if you gave them scout armour and made them the same cost and stats they are now, they wouldn't be popular, make them cheaper and they become a viable option

DOOMONYOU wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.

I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.

And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?

Skriker

I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.

But that's really the only reason to take them... Land Raider suicide squad Personally I've never liked that usage for Blood Claws because it seems odd to me that you'd use a Land Raider, one of the most valuable vehicles in your force, for the purpose of transporting the youngest, least well trained and most suicidal troops.

I'd much rather see Blood Claws becoming a viable foot slogging option. I'd actually be happy to see Blood Claws become max unit size of 10 again like they were in 2nd edition, as it seems kind of stupid for such a dynamic fighting force of Spehss Mareenz to put more members in a squad than can actually physically fit in any vehicle but the most valuable tank.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Said Stuff

Well the other way is to give them a model with Saga of the Hunter and Outflank

This a sample of one of the more “High Risk-High Gain” List

2250 Space Wolf Land Raider List:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I feel like stating up a thread for us Fluffy, laid back Players, but it will just be a magnet for "Ultra-Competative-Players"

Forgive me but what would the point of such a thing be? When mentioning what you want in Space Wolves 6th edition, you are begging for everybody to come in. For my personal opinion, nerf the 4+ deny everything, its silly, make njal ml3 and leave him with the ability to use his weather spells (perhaps he can chose that or normal spells. Perhaps also give him a 5+ to deny spells not aimed at him still... maybe). Remove the daemonbane bit. Removing the psyker table that the SW get, make the psykers cheaper. Then buff like every other HQ so all of them are on an equal playing field. GH are arguably too good, I'd love to see them regain ultra grit. Blood cheaper? I'm a bit more scratch my chin on this one on how to best make them more appealing. Still, they shouldn't cost as much as a GH. Long Fangs, make them pricier, although they suck, give them flak, and maybe MAYBE give them a bs5. Honestly I'm okay with them having split fire.

Please no stupid MC GW please. Also no more totally-not-obliterators. I do say give them a flier. You can use the dataslate to slide them in but I'd rather it be in the book right there. Not really for giving them a leman russ. Another variant of the rhino. Perhaps one built more for assaults? Not quite sure honestly. Less wolfy wolf also. If you want that bring out the other animals besides just wolves more frequently.


PLEEEEEASE: 13th Company. The ____ company of IH? The ____ company of another chapter? No don't do that. Go for something unique. 13th company is not only already in the fluff but would be an intriguing return especially as it would promote mixing models together. If you really want to I suppose they could have the 13th company as some elite or something units in the main codex that become troops with the 13th Company book.

Anyways, sorry for rambling. I just didn't see the point of going all fluffy I ultra-competitive. It really isn't just that, there isn't this simple easy divide and many will mesh over it in some cases. ALthough it would kinda be fun to have a SW page for things that aren't as effective (some of the ideas tossed in here) and how to make them effective . That'd be fun for a lot of armies.

Njal: To be honest I am up in the air about the 24” 4+. This mostly has to do with other than Nids I really have pulled him out against a real Psyker Army. I would be fine with a 12” 4+ or a 24” 5+. As for his Rune Priest Powers, I posted early on what I think would be good. Level-3 Psyker I would be good with.
Rune Priest: One of the ones my group has discussed was making it a 12” 5+ and a 6” or 12” around the Chooser of the Slain, but that came about after a 4e DnD game with a Shaman in it. As for cheaper, yes I would like my Master of Runes to be 25 points not 50.
The daemon Bane thing with the Rune Weapons I like, but then I have not fought them often enough to see a real problem. If we loose it, we loose it.

I will admit I don’t see why Grey Hunters are so powerful compared to normal Marines, but I admit I may be Bias. We have two Special Rules that Space Marines do not have access two and one piece of equipment.
>Combat Knife: +1 Attack and we cost more
>Counter-Attack: To me looks like any other Combat Tactics in power Level.
>Acute Senses: Useless 90% of the Time

The problem with the Data-Slate is it is at minimum 420 points as I have read it, I could be wrong. I have only seen it once and do not own a copy of it. For half that I could get a Storm Eagle though.

I am old school when if come to the Leman Russ Exterminator and would love to field mine again without taking Guard Allies.

Large Monstrous Creature: Unless it a Woolly Mammoth with a Howdah, not interested. Mostly this would be for modeling purposes. I still might build one anyways.

13th Company: YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! Oh and YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! Though it will probably be a Data-Slate

That’s ok I ramble too.

Oh trust me I get your plight there. Oh the days that I miss basilisks (even if they aren't the best thing in the world) manned by the forces of chaos!

No no wait. Large Monsterous Creatures. We have forgotten the most glorious of them all. Space Wolf! RIDE THE KRACKENS! ONWARDS!

Bah 13th company being a data-slate *grumbles* if they are going to have a supplement it is literally the best possible choice to make one. Already fluffy, a very unique and different playstyle, bam!

Its rather odd. The Combat Knife and Counter-attacks are arguably most optimal for counter-assaulting. The problem is, in the current meta these things don't mean nearly as much as it used to. I guess its best to compare to Salamanders cause I like Salamanders. The re-roll against flamer wounds really isn't all that great, the re-rolling to wounds is okay although it forces you to heavily theme your lists, the master-craft is probably the most intriguing part but it is more of a little bonus for classyness but mostly you won't have many that are influenced by it. The combat knife is obviously worth one point, so in the end counter-attack and acute senses are the invisible "chapter tactics". I think really what just makes SW edge it out is the double special rules. It really is an amazing benefit especially in comparison to tacticals that struggle with trying to be super flexible. Then again I'm just jealous of all you marines

Grrrr all of you flipping marines. 1 point. That's the only difference and you get combat squads, and they shall know no fear, and chapter tactics. Really 1 point? That is all just one point?

 Anpu42 wrote:
I will admit I don’t see why Grey Hunters are so powerful compared to normal Marines, but I admit I may be Bias. We have two Special Rules that Space Marines do not have access two and one piece of equipment.
>Combat Knife: +1 Attack and we cost more
>Counter-Attack: To me looks like any other Combat Tactics in power Level.
>Acute Senses: Useless 90% of the Time

That's a pretty big difference. 3 attacks vs 1 attack when you get charged, I think if any SM player were given that option for only 1pt, they'd take it in a heartbeat.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Oh trust me I get your plight there. Oh the days that I miss basilisks (even if they aren't the best thing in the world) manned by the forces of chaos!

No no wait. Large Monsterous Creatures. We have forgotten the most glorious of them all. Space Wolf! RIDE THE KRACKENS! ONWARDS!

Bah 13th company being a data-slate *grumbles* if they are going to have a supplement it is literally the best possible choice to make one. Already fluffy, a very unique and different playstyle, bam!

Its rather odd. The Combat Knife and Counter-attacks are arguably most optimal for counter-assaulting. The problem is, in the current meta these things don't mean nearly as much as it used to. I guess its best to compare to Salamanders cause I like Salamanders. The re-roll against flamer wounds really isn't all that great, the re-rolling to wounds is okay although it forces you to heavily theme your lists, the master-craft is probably the most intriguing part but it is more of a little bonus for classyness but mostly you won't have many that are influenced by it. The combat knife is obviously worth one point, so in the end counter-attack and acute senses are the invisible "chapter tactics". I think really what just makes SW edge it out is the double special rules. It really is an amazing benefit especially in comparison to tacticals that struggle with trying to be super flexible. Then again I'm just jealous of all you marines

Grrrr all of you flipping marines. 1 point. That's the only difference and you get combat squads, and they shall know no fear, and chapter tactics. Really 1 point? That is all just one point?

Well I also play 1,000 Suns, so I feel that pain.

Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?

Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?

Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.

Bring back something like True Grit for Grey Hunters (so they don't get +1 attack on the charge). Make Blood Claws Ws4 but Ld7 so that the extra attacks are actually more likely to to be effective in the first place.

That will make BC more desirable if your goal is to get in to assault, they'll equal GH in a drawn out fight (at the moment they're actually worse than GH in any assault they didn't charge) and better than GH on the charge (at the moment they are actually equal to GH on the charge against Ws3 opponents and only slightly better against Ws4+ enemies).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?

Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.

Bring back something like True Grit for Grey Hunters (so they don't get +1 attack on the charge). Make Blood Claws Ws4 but Ld7 so that the extra attacks are actually more likely to to be effective in the first place.

That will make BC more desirable if your goal is to get in to assault, they'll equal GH in a drawn out fight (at the moment they're actually worse than GH in any assault they didn't charge) and better than GH on the charge (at the moment they are actually equal to GH on the charge against Ws3 opponents and only slightly better against Ws4+ enemies).

Problem is that BC are supposed to be worse..But Cheaper, that's why kellys mistake is more glaring.

BC used to be 15 points, and GH 17. The lowering of price and increase of power of GH at the same time just made BC so completely worthless.

Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.

This post begin promesing, then the haters enter and become the treat into a hate and whining post, then the trolls, seriously Anpu, why you keep it feeding the troll and no, i not attacking you, instead you make some good statement aboput the wolves.
I love my space hairy pupies, love my rune priest, my wolf priest who is on every list i make, altough the internet said it is a bad unit ,he killed a black mace deamon prince, here is a grapich representation of the moment, truly epic:


I love to play arjack, to play my wolf scouts, my lone wolve (a single blood claw using a ss and thunder hammer to avenge the dead of his pack mates), i was wanting to read some great ideas, but instead everyone was whining about the rune priest and grey hunters, just because thier broken units fail againts them cough eldar cough , well, the riptide lol over the rune weapons 24" dispel, or even the noob bikers give a about the grey hunters and their counter attack and cc weapons (of couerse, on their orkysh way )

So what i want? keep the rune weapon, may instead of 4+ , got a 5+ dispell (only for the whining) , cheap units and something with wings or something to take down things with wings , everything else is just an extra plues, becuase the codex is good and sturdy right now, well maybe a new raganar model jejeje

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.

Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?

I love to play arjack, to play my wolf scouts, my lone wolve (a single blood claw using a ss and thunder hammer to avenge the dead of his pack mates), i was wanting to read some great ideas, but instead everyone was whining about the rune priest and grey hunters, just because thier broken units fail againts them cough eldar cough , well, the riptide lol over the rune weapons 24" dispel, or even the noob bikers give a about the grey hunters and their counter attack and cc weapons (of couerse, on their orkysh way )

...What?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.

Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?

Equally effective in combat, yeah. Back in 2nd edition, Blood Claws were equal to GH in combat (both were Ws5, one higher than your average SM), so it's not without precedence. Maybe it's because I started collecting SW in 2nd edition that I feel it's fine for BC to have the same Ws as a GH but they should have lower Bs and Ld to show they aren't masters of the bolter yet and they aren't hardened by centuries of war.

GH are the better rounded warriors, good in combat, good at shooting and stalwart warriors (hence Ld 8). They might be slightly more skilled in combat than a BC, but not enough to warrant a 1 pt difference in Ws IMO.

From a fluff perspective, Space Wolves recruit from the tribes of Fenris, the sort of people who are already going to be proficient with an axe, shield and sword.

BC are stats wise fine at the moment. Rules and points wise they could be changed. Points definetly reduced to around 12 ppm. The headstrong rule is fine, rather fluffy i find. Bu the beserk charge rule is the same as rage. Either give them rage, or make it they get +2 on the charge no matter what, like even if the opponent has defensive grenades.

Back in the day, taking GH as a baseline, Blood Claws were -1Bs, -1Ld and Long Fangs were +1Bs, +1Ini, +1Ld.

I'd be happy to see those stats return, I think it better emphasizes the differences between different troop types beyond "Long Fangs are the ones with the big guns, Grey Hunters are the ones with Bolters and Blood Claws are the ones with pistols".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.

Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?

Equally effective in combat, yeah. Back in 2nd edition, Blood Claws were equal to GH in combat (both were Ws5, one higher than your average SM), so it's not without precedence. Maybe it's because I started collecting SW in 2nd edition that I feel it's fine for BC to have the same Ws as a GH but they should have lower Bs and Ld to show they aren't masters of the bolter yet and they aren't hardened by centuries of war.

GH are the better rounded warriors, good in combat, good at shooting and stalwart warriors (hence Ld 8). They might be slightly more skilled in combat than a BC, but not enough to warrant a 1 pt difference in Ws IMO.

From a fluff perspective, Space Wolves recruit from the tribes of Fenris, the sort of people who are already going to be proficient with an axe, shield and sword.

Yes, and the best of the best normal human standard is around WS3, Space Marine and up to worthy is WS4, and that doesn't make sense considering that many Space Marines recruit from Feral Worlders and Death Worlders as well who would also be proficient in combat as well.

As for 2nd Edition, WS had a far different role when it came to combat, and it's better to look at 3rd edition fluff and stats to get a better baseline (Unless you really want to see the return of Eldar's truly powerful Shurikens..) considering this is what set the baseline for most things throughout the current editions.

Well, the best of the best normal humans would be IG, I'd imagine their training would still be pretty heavily focused on shooting, as even Storm Troopers and Veterans are still primarily shooty troops. IG Bodyguards are Ws4, they're probably the only non-character Guardsmen that have a heavy emphasis on close combat in their training.

But either way, I would be happy to see Blood Claws with Ws4. Even if GH are better fighters, I think the difference could be small enough to warrant both being Ws4. Sometimes the gradation that we have for stats isn't fine enough to set apart one unit from the next. I'd rather see the inexperience shown on the Ld side.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, the best of the best normal humans would be IG, I'd imagine their training would still be pretty heavily focused on shooting, as even Storm Troopers and Veterans are still primarily shooty troops. IG Bodyguards are Ws4, they're probably the only non-character Guardsmen that have a heavy emphasis on close combat in their training.

But either way, I would be happy to see Blood Claws with Ws4. Even if GH are better fighters, I think the difference could be small enough to warrant both being Ws4. Sometimes the gradation that we have for stats isn't fine enough to set apart one unit from the next. I'd rather see the inexperience shown on the Ld side.

Problem is that would just mean someone would plop down a wolf guard into the squad and easily fix that issue right up, considering that since it takes 15 models to get a second ranged weapon it'd just prioritize having a WG in it. Thus meaning the leadership issue isn't a problem, and the squad itself gets a strong buff as a result, since the WG would simply beat the penalty, keep headstrong under control and generally just be a better choice.

I'd still prefer a lower cost to a WS upgrade.

Njtrent59 wrote:I think every space wolves player understands that grey hunters, long fangs, and rune priests are generally better than their counterparts. But when you look at the rest of the codex, it is nearly impossible to justify taking any other choices. All of the hqs are terribly expensive. In terms of troops, blood claws cost the same as grey hunters but are significantly worse. Those are the only two options. I don't know about other space wolves players, but I personally don't like the fact that I am limited to a single troop choice every game.

That's my main problem with the current codex. I HATE the fact that the global 40K community has decided on the only 3-4 entries worth taking from the entire book / model range!
I should be able to select ANY unit entry I like, and have it be a viable choice without attracting the hate of all these other players whose army is poor, because mine is "OP" compared to theirs.
We pay a F@#*ING LOT of money to play this game... so GW needs to pull their finger out and start matching the quality of their product to the price premium they charge.
It's terrible how bad they are at balancing armies against one another, but when they can't even balance units within the same book... well that's criminal.

Blacksails wrote:My suggestion would be to roll them into the standard codex. Along with DA and BA.

Thank God no one listens to you

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.

I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)

Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.

I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.

I am soooooo sick of having to remodel my armies because of a stupid rule change. If Grey Hunters loose their extra CCW, I will find the person responsible and kill them.
To Death!


If Grey Hunters *really* need a nerf, I'd accept a return to the "True Grit" days... but that's not the "original codex" or what they "originally had". You're talking about 3rd edition.... nothing original about that. We hated it and burnt the books to make sure they were dead.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Yeah, Grey Hunters started off as basic Marines with +1 Ws (back when +1 Ws was a bigger deal than +1 Attack), then they got True Grit (as the developers tried to figure out a way to make GH better in CC than a marine without giving them a whole +1 attack), then they got the ability to carry a CCW/bolter/bolt pistol all at once.

I think True Grit was probably the better option there. It also actually gave you a reason to take Blood Claws (because GH weren't good on the charge).

That's a fair assessment

Wilytank wrote:Martel's just one of those people who doesn't have fun and apparently believes that no one else should either.

AKA "competitive players"

(getting in before you all scream and cry to say there's a difference between 'trying to win' or even playing in a tournament, as opposed to the fun-wreckers who identify themselves very loudly as 'competitive players')

Anpu42 wrote:I feel like stating up a thread for us Fluffy, layed back Players, but it will just be a magnet for "Ultra-Competative-Players"

I'd *love* to have a conversation with players who play Space Wolves for *fun*, and talk about doing *crazy* things - like actually using Skyclaws !!!! (Which I do every single battle). We should try it, and just not respond to the haters when they inevitably come and try to rain on our fun.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Back in the day, taking GH as a baseline, Blood Claws were -1Bs, -1Ld and Long Fangs were +1Bs, +1Ini, +1Ld.

I'd be happy to see those stats return, I think it better emphasizes the differences between different troop types beyond "Long Fangs are the ones with the big guns, Grey Hunters are the ones with Bolters and Blood Claws are the ones with pistols".

The problem is, they've levelled the stats too much in Edition 3+. Wolf Lord is now the only unit with better than WS5, even including HQs. Add to that, GW's abolition of any dice besides D6, plus the massive over-all dumbing down of all the rules (WTF would they remove to-hit / save modifiers ?!?!).... there's just no scope to give them better WS

It's why our gaming group is working on updating 2nd Ed rules to include new models, and fix the 'broken rules' (rather than just abandon a great system like GW did when they introduced the hateful POS that was 3rd Ed)

Also, in the interest of balance, -1 Ld isn't worth much of a points drop since you'd never field Blood Claws without a champ/hero anyway, to prevent reckless
-1 WS just means they take more wounds... doesn't do too much to realistically reduce their damage output as they'd probably be hitting on 4+ anyway.
If GH are +1 pt from normal marines, BC should be -1. Maybe GH should be +2 and BC -1 (GH *are* pretty good)

And like I said before - I don't really care too much if you nerf Rune Priests because I run fluffy lists and don't take 4xRP anyway. I usually take 1 Wolf Lord, 1 Rune Priest and 1 or 2 Wolf Priests to lead my Sky claws / Swift claws