Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have started to warm up to the idea of Space Wolf Centurions. I was playing around with a Space Wolf/Space Marine list and Took Logan and some Assault Centurions and came up with a way to mitigate the Slow and Purposeful weakness, Logan gives them Relentless, problem Solved.

As far as what to do with the “Long Fang” Centurions:
>Replace the Grav-Cannon with a pair of Assault Cannons or a Plasma Cannon with some sort of “Plasma-Pump” that lets you Re-Roll the Gets Hot.

I doubt centurions would be added to the wolves, seeing as they were discovered in the age of apostasy Russ would not have used them. And if Russ didn't use them, the wolves wont.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
I doubt centurions would be added to the wolves, seeing as they were discovered in the age of apostasy Russ would not have used them. And if Russ didn't use them, the wolves wont.

Yes, but we are talking about GW.

I like to think of SW as the Russians, you don't challenge them to a ground war. I want them to stay like that. We have bar none the best troops in the game. We also have the best psyker defense in the game, however that will be changed without a doubt. Most likely to something like, "Any psyker within 24" or a rune priest is -2 to leadership for casting powers" or something. (Watch we get old school nids shadow in the warp and all hell breaks lose)

I like the thought of SW not really needing to bring a bunch of war machines to do their dirty work. Let long fangs get skyfire and solve that issue in one fell swoop.

I really, REALLY don't want to lose the SW psychic powers. I like all of them quite a bit. Though I am sure Jaws will be re-worked. 6th has been removing a lot of all or nothing abilities and defenses. Less EW, instant death and removed from play all around. I would like to see murderous hurricane affect fliers in one way or another, albeit in a very small chance to do something. Like can cause a glancing hit to fliers on a +5. I would love to see living lightning have something similar, but I know those are both a bit of a stretch.

Every unit with Claws in the name gets a point drop, and TDA becomes a little more affordable. A buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee. I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)

I think TWC are in a good place, and I don't really have an opinion on getting more units from the marine dex like centurions. I would love to see Wulfen return, but I think MotW does a good job of satisfying my wulfen needs. Maybe we get relics like it seems all the other books are getting, one of which is "Master of the wulfen" allows you to upgrade 1 unit to wulfen, unit must be accompanied by the lord who holds the "master of the wulfen" relic.


I know, lots of wishlisting

 gwarsh41 wrote:
buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee.

You have a Chapter Master, his name is Logan Grimnar.

I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)

Seriously. You already have a ton of things to yourself, no need to steal more of CSM's thunder.

A lot of people here have been saying stuff about Wulfen, but I'm skeptical. Would such a unit even be good enough to take in an edition where a lot of people say that assault is weak?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)

Seriously. You already have a ton of things to yourself, no need to steal more of CSM's thunder.

And people wonder why some of us are a bit hostile to Space Wolf players...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee.

You have a Chapter Master, his name is Logan Grimnar.

Sure, fluff-wise. Tabletop wise, Wolf Lords cost more for less damage output and survivability.
Also, to be fair, in the fluff a Wolf Lord manages as many men as most Chapter Masters. Plus, Logan is pretty crappy for his cost.

EDIT: After checking, turns out I had my fluff wrong. Wolf Lords lead about 200 men, or so..Still better than most captains, but not up to Chapter Master levels.

Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.

As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.

As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop

Heck, if you count second founding and after chapters, you'd find many that would support their host legions in numbers far beyond SW could provide.

Especially if you consider DA and how they technically are one.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.

As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop

Ditto. Rune Priests aren't just our best HQ choice because of Jaws and Divination and Runic Weapons. They're also the only HQ we've got that will ever be efficient. Arguments can be made for getting Outflank from a Wolf Priest (Not terrible with acute senses) and Thunderwolf Lords can be useful, but all our named characters are about 25% too expensive to be useful, WGBL are just awful, and the aforementioned options stillonly have limited uses that are outdone easily by Rune Priests or other codex options.

 Wilytank wrote:
A lot of people here have been saying stuff about Wulfen, but I'm skeptical. Would such a unit even be good enough to take in an edition where a lot of people say that assault is weak?

They are still an interesting edition. If you made an army made up entirely of wulfen then yes it would be lousy just like any other single faceted army. Heck an army made up of khorne berserkers was pretty weak in the last edition and assault wasn't too bad then. The key is tactical balance. If you have no long range ability then you are limiting your army. If your units are all wulfen then you would have NO shooting making your army REALLY limited. Wolves have a lot of melee punch. Adding wulfen just augments that somewhat and as long as they are well supported they can do some work.

Skriker

What I don’t want:

>Go overboard with the Rune Priest and give them a Giant NERF: Yes we are one of the best at Countering Psychic Powers, so what is so horrible about that. The only current truly broken thing about Rune Priest is the people taken them just for JotWW.
>Go overboard with the Long Fangs and give them a Giant NERF: Yes Long Fangs are one of the best Foot Based Heavy Weapon Units out there. The only current truly broken thing about Long Fangs is the people taken them just for “Split Fire”. I have not seen a lot of that recently, but the moment they can take Flakk Missiles we may see the re-emergent of them as Allies.
>They don’t make the Lone Wolves go away: I like them and they are fun to play. Moving them within the FOC would be ok, but I want them to stay.
>Chang the Wolf Scouts: While it would be nice to have them a as a Troop Choice making them like the other Scouts would just ruin them.

Rune priests need to be brought down to librarian efficacy. Sorry, they do. No more special snowflake psykers. Yes, I'm bitter.

Nothing wrong with Long Fangs, because they aren't that good anyway.

I would say nerf the bejeesus out of Grey Hunters, but their brokenness doesn't even matter anymore. What a joke.

Martel732 wrote:
Rune priests need to be brought down to librarian efficacy. Sorry, they do. No more special snowflake psykers. Yes, I'm bitter.

But you have much Cooler Powers!
You have the ability to have a flying Dreadnaught wielding a “Light Saber” leaping from Storm Ravens like a giant Yoda!

Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.

Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.

Martel732 wrote:
Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.

Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.

Yes you have shown your bias. If it as Unit for any Space Marine army other than Space Wolves they Suck and Space Wolves are Over Powered.

They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW.

And just for your information if they did do that to us, there is a lot of us out there that would b*tch and whine some, but we would still play them and not go around to the Blood Angel Threads and constantly put them down.

I'm not putting down SW. I'm exalting their uber special snowflakeness. I'm admitting that I pretty much can't beat them as they currently exist.

"They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW. "

No, that would be obviously giving them the shaft. Did such a dramatic change have to happen to BA to make them virtually unplayable? No. You don't understand how much better SW are than typical meqs because it's so subtle. The advantages snowball over many turns and many games, making them unfair. I'm not biased so much as I can do math.

What BA threads, lol?

There ws a Blood Angels Thread similar to the that went up within a couple of days of mine. I stayed away from becouse I do not know enough about them to feel like contribute to it one way or another.

anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off

We know what he is saying, we have heard throughout most of this thread... Please let him be in his own anti-space wolf bubble.... Who knows he might eventually get bored and bother someone elses thread

martel732 We understand your frustrations, that the Allfather & Russ (or in the real world GW) has blessed our little plastic, resin and metal soldiers with cool powers and a nice almost balanced ruleset which has managed to cross from 5th to 6th quite well. We understand that our wolves have in your eyes not been beaten with the nerf-bat as much as you would like... Please stop sounding like an irritating scratched record and go bug someone else's thread, because we know that unless all space wolves cost a bajillion points each and have no psychic defence/attack and a ws & bs of 0.. you will never be happy. We are sorry that certain rules and models have made you so bitter, but I think we have heard enough of your negativity for one thread.

I was being sarcastic. There's not much to talk about with BA. There was a wishlist thread, and I can't even conceive of something that GW would actually give them to make them even average in the current meta.

So for SW, it's all about making them fair vis a vis meqs or making them competitive with Taudar. Right now, they are in an annoying no man's land.

At least when I lose to Taudar, I can say I lost to the best. When I lose to SW, it's because GW made them special snowflake marines with inexplicable advantages over other meqs. I can't outshoot the SW, and I can't HTH the SW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dantay_xv wrote:
anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off

We know what he is saying, we have heard throughout most of this thread... Please let him be in his own anti-space wolf bubble.... Who knows he might eventually get bored and bother someone elses thread

martel732 We understand your frustrations, that the Allfather & Russ (or in the real world GW) has blessed our little plastic, resin and metal soldiers with cool powers and a nice almost balanced ruleset which has managed to cross from 5th to 6th quite well. We understand that our wolves have in your eyes not been beaten with the nerf-bat as much as you would like... Please stop sounding like an irritating scratched record and go bug someone else's thread, because we know that unless all space wolves cost a bajillion points each and have no psychic defence/attack and a ws & bs of 0.. you will never be happy. We are sorry that certain rules and models have made you so bitter, but I think we have heard enough of your negativity for one thread.

I'll accept your retort if you can answer me one thing: how do I realistically approach fighting SW with another meq list? The fact that you think SW are balanced amuses me.

 dantay_xv wrote:
anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off

TBH you're not going to win this particular argument with Martel because he's right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off

TBH you're not going to win this particular argument with Martel because he's right.

Well thank both of you for poking me, I got sucked in again.

As for the Ignor Button, I realy don't like to use it personaly, but I have condcidered it recently.

I don't understand why you can't look at this objectively and see where someone with the crap that is now the psychic hood might be a little annoyed with the existence of the rune priest.

Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.

Yes, but even if/when we agree with him on something something like the rune priests needs to be dialled down, we get the same lines about grey hunters or whatever, that people arent even talking about, trotted out over and over its like perpetual motion... And in fairness it is pointless repetition lather rinse repeat etc..... That if he said something different or worthwhile, we probably wouldnt notice.... Anyway, I am not going to repeat myself over and over.... Keep grey hunters roughly the same, maybe tweak them a bit. Drop the points on bloodclaws and make them bettr in attack, grey hunters hold objectives (defence), bloodclaws take objectives (offence)
Long Fangs stay pretty much the same, as they are the grizzled ancient veterans... dial back the rune priests, make wolf priests more in line with apothecary and chaplain mix as they are supposed to be both, so a wee buff there.
Drop the poits on the characters and give some of the old time models a freshen up with new sculpts and get Someone back on the project to make the 2 Bran Redmaw models.... Oh and scouts as troops choice so they arent competing in an already competitive slot.

I am done,

Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status.

Yes, I realize Taudar ignore this particular benefit of SW. But they ignore lots of stuff. For lists like Tyranids and BA and Orks, the SW are just stupid to have to deal with. Can't assault them, can't out shoot them.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.

Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.

Yes you have shown your bias. If it as Unit for any Space Marine army other than Space Wolves they Suck and Space Wolves are Over Powered.

They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW.

And just for your information if they did do that to us, there is a lot of us out there that would b*tch and whine some, but we would still play them and not go around to the Blood Angel Threads and constantly put them down.

Actually considering how many people bandwagoned all the way to SW when it was revealed how much more powerful then anything else they were. There would likely be gnashing of teeth and anger all around. I mean it'd be the first time SW hasn't been SM + 1 and all.

Maybe I am a bad player but my friend regularly kicks my ass with almost all his armies when I use my wolves, nids can chew through them, Guard can out tank and gun them, hellturkeys can toast them with impunity, tau blow me away with their gunnery and manouvrability, assault marines fly in with hammer of wrath to land a few blows first and chaplains in terminator armour can give the reroll options to marine troops if they are attached... it can be fairly even, I have yet to face off against blood angels, Deathwing with their teleporting in are brutal, ravenwing are small but bloody hell can they get around an all that plasma can put a crimp in anyones day. Necrons wear you down by getting back up and tarpitting you, tesla and wraithstars... daemons have a hard time but when their pwers do go off the horrors can really shoot stuff up and Khorne can be a bad ass... Eldar just piss me off with the holofield and dacing around Dark Eldar are brittle but with speed can put you in a world of hurt, the new SM codex gives nice traits, IH players get it nice, white sars with hit and run I think. And fliers for SM armies. Most wolves players dont use them and have no way to combat them, because we dont all go onlineand find a dataslate that may or may not allow us to use them. Isnt descent of Angels a nice rule to have? Just asking as I dont play blood angels

I dont drop pod my whole army, so I dont alpha or beta strike, maybe thast what I do wrong?
Or maybe you play against uber competitive players who are sucking the fun out of it for you, so I suggest find new opponents, whatever... you need to take it far less seriously.

Either that, if you cant beet them, then join hem

Descent of Angels, unfortunately, has never been good. BA were a 90% gimmick army in 5th, which I hated, but used the gimmicks away because I had to.

I understand completely that SW have meq-esque issues against Xeno lists. Low model count, not enough throw weight, etc. That is not my complaint.

Purely compared SW to other meqs, I don't understand the justifications of the SW. They have ATSKNF over CSM, and superior HTH over all other meqs. And since meq vs meq often degenerates into HTH, this is an INCREDIBLE advantage. INCREDIBLE. Yes, Tau don't care. I get it.

Since I am more than willing to talk in good faith, I'll address your match ups.

Tyranids: Little nids should all die to GH. Even genestealers can't match up against GH. Use your long fangs against the big bugs (who don't rock more than 3+ now) and profit. This matchup should be almost trivial in my experience.

BA: We have nothing on you. You should win easily with few losses as BA have lost all mojo. Note that it's easier for me to beat the new C:SM codex with BA than SW. Absurd.

Deathwing: Use terrain and unit spacing to force them to teleport into kill zones. Against these guys, though, your ML long fangs just became T-totally garbage. You'll need lots of plasma, but you get double specials in your squads plus combi on the wolf guard. If they assault you, you'l get a bizillion attacks before their power fists and thunder hammers go. They'll lose due to the overcostedness of terminators.

Ravenwing: If any rune priests can roll perfect timing, you half win right there. Attach them to long fangs and cripple one bike squad a turn. Focus down the banner of devastation and suddenly their firepower becomes very pedestrian. Against bikers in general, spamming poor quality wounds is the way to go, since it cheats them out of their jink save. Just go through the power armor. That's not that many of them. They they assault you, you win. Again.

Necrons: Finally a real problem. Necrons have all kinds of tricksy stuff that makes meq's life hard. Necrons wont' be assaulting meqs, so this is the first list on here where the magic GH countercharge isn't game changing. If they are playing heavy fliers, you have a real problem. But meqs in general can't handle that build, even with ravens and talons.

Daemons: SW are far and away better against them than any other meqs because of magical rune priest rules. Yes, still at a disadvantage, but still better off. FMC circus is just a nasty build and the screamer star speaks for itself.

Eldar: I think we all know the score here. They don't care about your SW tricks. They can snipe all your long fangs with WS firepower, and the whole game is down hill. Even if you drop on top of them, they just drive away, or jump out and shuriken you to death.

New SM: Yeah, they have grav. That's a thing. Yeah, they're a bit cheaper, but still can't really out shoot you and they have no chance in HTH. I've beaten these guys with BA because their tech just isn't that good, and so you should have an even easier time. Basically, it's another case of you owning them in HTH, and they don't have the firepower to stop you.