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Martel732 wrote:
So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.

No I haven't. Sorry that my own tactical playing style and experience doesn't jibe with your apparently rather narrow view on the subject. Back in the previous edition my chaos marine squads were better on the special weapon loadouts than grey hunters because I could have 2 special weapons without needing to have 10 models in my unit. Now my chaos marines are the same with that 10 model requirement. So no real power imbalance there for me. I've been playing this game practically from the beginning and there is ALWAYS some unbeatable army that someone or multiple someones are complaining about that other players are successfully beating at the same time. So your complaints against the wolves are hardly unique in their presence, nor are they they ONLY side of the situation either. In one of your own posts you say you *know* how to deal with grey hunters and if that is they case why are you belaboring this argument? Also why, if you know how to deal with them, are you not sure what to say when someone else tells you that they've not found wolves to be anymore crazy to deal with than any other opposing force out there?

Skriker

List-Tailoring, here it is for us. As I have stated before, we don tailor for Billy Bob’s Anti-Tank Space Marines List. It is more like this.

Anpu42: “So Billy Bob are you bringing your Space Marines today?”
Billy Bob: “Yes and I though I would bring a flyer today, you going to bring anything special?”
Anpu42: “Well newly built ADL with a Quad Gun now, beyond that just my Space Puppies.”
Billy Bob: “Cool!”
Anpu42: “Are we going to use mysteries objectives or random terrain today.”
Billy Bob: “How about just some random terrain and a random mission?”
Anpu42: “Sounds good to me.”
[And we both put our list together then]

Here would be my list for that.

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

 Anpu42 wrote:
List-Tailoring, here it is for us. As I have stated before, we don tailor for Billy Bob’s Anti-Tank Space Marines List. It is more like this.

Anpu42: “So Billy Bob are you bringing your Space Marines today?”
Billy Bob: “Yes and I though I would bring a flyer today, you going to bring anything special?”
Anpu42: “Well newly built ADL with a Quad Gun now, beyond that just my Space Puppies.”
Billy Bob: “Cool!”
Anpu42: “Are we going to use mysteries objectives or random terrain today.”
Billy Bob: “How about just some random terrain and a random mission?”
Anpu42: “Sounds good to me.”
[And we both put our list together then]

Here would be my list for that.

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

Spoiler:

Rune Priest in Power Armour, 200 pts (Chooser of the Slain; Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Bolt Pistol; Runic Weapon; Master of Runes; Psyker (Mastery Level 2); Warlord; 6E Psychic Disciplines: Biomancy; Divination; Telekinesis)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Power Armour, 175 pts (Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Combi-Meltagun x1; Wolf Claw x1; Saga of the Wolfkin)
2x Fenrisian Wolf
Long Fangs Pack, 165 pts (Close Combat Weapon x5; Heavy Bolter x1; Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2)
1x Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
Aegis Defence Lines, 100 pts
1x Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)

Wolf Scouts Pack, 210 pts (Pistol x8; Plasma Pistol x2; Boltgun x8; Plasma Gun)
1x Wolf Scout w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)

Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)

Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)

Grey Hunters Pack, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)

Grey Hunters Pack, 210 pts (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x8; Boltgun x7; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol; Power Maul)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)


Land Speeder Squadron, 270 pts (Land Speeder x3; Heavy Bolter x3; Typhoon Missile Launcher x3)

So do you understand where I might have a problem in a non-tailoring environment. I have no idea what list I'm facing. No clue about number of fliers. It could be Eldar. It could be Tau. I could be Sisters. The SW are a pretty big spoiler in this set up. At least for my list building. Just curious: how would you build for an unknown opponent?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.

No I haven't. Sorry that my own tactical playing style and experience doesn't jibe with your apparently rather narrow view on the subject. Back in the previous edition my chaos marine squads were better on the special weapon loadouts than grey hunters because I could have 2 special weapons without needing to have 10 models in my unit. Now my chaos marines are the same with that 10 model requirement. So no real power imbalance there for me. I've been playing this game practically from the beginning and there is ALWAYS some unbeatable army that someone or multiple someones are complaining about that other players are successfully beating at the same time. So your complaints against the wolves are hardly unique in their presence, nor are they they ONLY side of the situation either. In one of your own posts you say you *know* how to deal with grey hunters and if that is they case why are you belaboring this argument? Also why, if you know how to deal with them, are you not sure what to say when someone else tells you that they've not found wolves to be anymore crazy to deal with than any other opposing force out there?

Skriker

I just because I *know* what to do doesn't mean I can do it with any given list. Again, I'm not able to tailor for SW and this changes things a lot, when they just randomly show up as my opponent. My argument is that I have to play them completely differently than every other meq list because assault it not even an option.

I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ. That's what they do, they fight better in assault. You don't go trying to assault a Tyranid army either. You have to make your list dynamic enough to shoot the armies that are better than you at assaulting and assault the armies that are better than you at shooting.

If you want the option to ALWAYS be able to assault regardless of who you play against and not get stomped by many opponents, you have take the army that is THE best at assaulting, which is not vanilla marines nor is it Space Wolves.

Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be.

But if you get stomped by SW just as well as you get stomped by Tyranids, that simply means you're failing at building a TAC list because your TAC list can't deal with armies that can assault better than you.

"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

Martel732 wrote:
So do you understand where I might have a problem in a non-tailoring environment. I have no idea what list I'm facing. No clue about number of fliers. It could be Eldar. It could be Tau. I could be Sisters. The SW are a pretty big spoiler in this set up. At least for my list building.

Actually I don’t see the issue.
>What I know: He is bringing a Flyer of some sort, it could even be the Data-Slate with the three Fighters, it could be Imperial Guard Allies with 3 Vendettas or even Chaos Marines with a Heldrake. I just know he is bringing Flyers.
>My only response: An ADL with Quad Gun, that is one of my option other Allies for Air Defense. [Sarcasm/On] Yes this will guarantee my win. [Sarcasm/Off]

I take it you do not play in an environment with this level of Player Cooperation?

Yes and you also know what is amazing!! If you place your troops right, thenbetween them and the scenery you deny me any decent places to put my drop pods negating 1 advantage and once the dust settles and I have jumped out, I am standing in front of your whole army with less than half of mine waiting to be gunned down.

Kill them fast with firepower and watch as the other pods come in randomly and kill those off piecemeal.

Make the most of the terrain in your deployment zone and (please dont say you dont have much terrain, because its not hard to build or buy) and watch the wolves drop down but where you want them.

Doesnt atleast 1 unit have to start the game on the table? If you get first turn and the whole army bar 1 is in a drop pod, do all in your power to nail that 1 unit to table him!

Each army has a play style. If I am not aggressive with my Space Wolves I will get kicked in the crotch repeatedly till I puke up my own testes!! They are designed to be aggressive. To give everyone else super space wedgies.

Maybe your play style doesnt suit the Blood Angels and would be better served with an army more suited to the way you want to play.

Either that or take Wolves as allies and have fun.

I'd love to use Death company as allies and call them 13th company wulfen, with Lemartes as the Wolf Priest trying to guide them .

Anyway we all know that blood angels are just poncy pretty boys who like to be artsy-fartsy and look good all day while drinking claret. The crazy ones are the good guys really

As for drop pods, 1 is a waste unless it has a sacrificial unit in it, as you are giving up 1 vp for the weak ass pod itself and potentially 1 for the troops because you are throwing them out there unsupported... I often use the drop pod in this way if I choose to use it because the opponent either has to divert part of their army to deal with them or ignores them and they can bumble around doing as they wish

Cooperation? Basically, I show up on a game day, and names go in a kitty and I get a random opponent. In your case, you know the codex your opponent is building out of. That's huge, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
Cooperation? Basically, I show up on a game day, and names go in a kitty and I get a random opponent. In your case, you know the codex your opponent is building out of. That's huge, imo.

So you are stuck with the ONE list you bring that day?
You can't have a Necron List, Eldar List, Ork List ect with you?

No. I make a list and show up with that list. I have ONE list. I don't get to change it. NOW do you see what the SW are bad news for me?

Martel732 wrote:
No. I make a list and show up with that list. I have ONE list. I don't get to change it. NOW do you see what the SW are bad news for me?

Is that your choice or where you play?

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.

But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?

I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No. I make a list and show up with that list. I have ONE list. I don't get to change it. NOW do you see what the SW are bad news for me?

Is that your choice or where you play?

That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.

But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?

I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.

That's way too much effort to kill TROOPS, imo, and that's my exact problem with the SW. Of course, I guess GW's way to "balance" that is to make GK, Necrons, Tau, and Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.

It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.

Martel732 wrote:
That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?

Sorry to hear and once more I am glad I don’t play there, nor would I for long.

Here are my suggestions:
1] See if there are others there who don’t want to play in an Constant Tournament Environment and Play with them
2] Go on the internet and see if there is anyone else out that plays Warhammer 40k in your are and play with them.
3] QUIT Derailing every thread that does not agree with you. This is like the 5th or 6th one thread that YOU will not allow to stay on subject. Todays subject was supposed to be about what we wanted to have done with Space Wolf Dreadnaughts.

And theein lies the crux of the argument, you are comparing 2 different types of troops and expecting the same outcome.

Each type of army has a codex because each type of army plays in a different manner.

Blood Angels are fast, Deathwing are small elite hard nuts, ravenwing are fast and good heavy infantry killers. Tau are gun fanatics, tyranids assault. orks mob up and hit hard, guard blob up and shoot to death in many and varied ways, necrons are super durable and chaos is well..... Chaotic.

Your argument is boiling down to everything should be the same, and if it was it would be boring as hell, the fun part of the game is the variety it brings.

A grey hunter is never supposed to be a tactical marine, his game mechanics were not designed for it, he is amid-close range bruiser.

He isnt better than everyone else, he is just different, like a fire warrior is to guardsman or an eldar.

Oh btw if they are overwtching with boltguns, then they lose the +1 attack for the cc weapon because they cant swap weapons in the middle of an assault, same as they cant rapid fire you to deaththen charge you courtesy of the BP & CCW,so watch out for those dishonourable wolf lords who try to pull this stunt on you.

Also never let them roll dice individually, cos you an learn how to throw for what you want Just sayin'

Martel732 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.

It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.

So?

"Spite" is not a good reason to nerf something. Wouldn't you rather your BA be given a half decent codex instead of just nerfing SW?

I don't want SW to be better than every other marine army, but I want them to remain one of the tougher armies for assault armies to face. That's how they've been since 2nd edition.

The subject of SW balance is directly related to their wish listing. I know you don't play against them, but if Eldar players made a wishlist thread to make their stuff *even better*, there would be ojections.

So basically, your solution is to only play with people that let you list-tailor, so you don't have to consider all operational possibilities when you make your list. Stomp off and take your ball.

I don't mind the one list thing. I mind that GW has made it impossible to game for the SW, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, and GK simutaneously.

And like Anpu said, you seem to have a harsh gaming crowd, I suggest you find other folks to play to freshen things up for you.

MOst of us play for fun and if it isnt fun we play someone else. Fun isnt always winning.

My army gets beaten with a beatstick plenty but its the company as much as the game which makes it enjoyable

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.

BA suffer from a relatively old codex stuff with useless and overpriced units. Generally speaking, as with any army in this edition, there's a specific build you can take that remains semi-competitive, and even then these BA lists have nothing on the Tau, Eldar, or Necron lists that are being used now. There are arguments for a shooty BA army, mass Fragioso's, cheap Devastators, and Baal Predators but Codex: SM does that significantly better for roughly the same points cost. Even the thing that BA is supposed to do well, assault, has taken such a hit with what 6th edition did with random assault distances and the nerfing of furious charge (albeit i4 is still pretty nifty) and now the change to feel no pain.

I love my BA honestly, nerfdom and all. They're certainly not as good as they were, but they can give most armies a run for their money if you play'em right. Of course you won't see any in the top 5, at least until they get a new codex to reflect point changes and such.

And I agree with AllSeeingSkink, as much as I dislike how SW are designed, I'd rather a better 'dex for my BA than hope for a nerf of another army.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"

Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?

A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.

"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "

This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.

I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.

I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.

It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.

So?

"Spite" is not a good reason to nerf something. Wouldn't you rather your BA be given a half decent codex instead of just nerfing SW?

I don't want SW to be better than every other marine army, but I want them to remain one of the tougher armies for assault armies to face. That's how they've been since 2nd edition.

Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?

Sorry to hear and once more I am glad I don’t play there, nor would I for long.

FWIW, most places I've played are like that. If you want to play a game with tailored lists, it would be outside the normal structure of the group. I used to tailor lists against my mates (outside of the gaming groups and FLGS's), but that was open tailoring like...

"I'm going to take this troop"
"Oh ok, well if you're taking that I'll take this and that, sound fair?"
"Sure, but then I'll also take that and this, cool?"
"Sounds good"

So not tailoring as in...
"I'm fighting X army, I better take flamers instead of plasma guns"

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.

Actually that is not what you did at all. My quote came from a post where you did your best to invalidate the forces that were used to wipe out someone's space wolves because they wouldn't be good in a tournement environment. Yeah comparing fire power from a xenos list to a marine list the xenos win all the time, but who cares about that when the discussion was actually about marine lists vs. marine lists? It makes you look petty if you get shown how meq lists can succeed against wolves and then you bring xenos into the discussion as if that has a bearing. This discussion has been about other marines forces dealing with space wolves, not about other marine lists somehow dealing with space wolves AND magically being comparable to shooting from the current top xenos offenders when even without dealing with space wolves marine forces would have a hard time doing that.

The key is to have SOME firepower and if you have a unit that will suck to assault you shoot the heck out of it with your firepower. Doesn't mean your TAC marine list will have as much shooty as a Tau or Eldar list.

Skriker

They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.

I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.

 dantay_xv wrote:
And like Anpu said, you seem to have a harsh gaming crowd, I suggest you find other folks to play to freshen things up for you.

MOst of us play for fun and if it isnt fun we play someone else. Fun isnt always winning.

My army gets beaten with a beatstick plenty but its the company as much as the game which makes it enjoyable

It's harsh to now allow list-tailoring? How would list-tailoring even help me via SW? Any SW opponent could tailor right back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.

Actually that is not what you did at all. My quote came from a post where you did your best to invalidate the forces that were used to wipe out someone's space wolves because they wouldn't be good in a tournement environment. Yeah comparing fire power from a xenos list to a marine list the xenos win all the time, but who cares about that when the discussion was actually about marine lists vs. marine lists? It makes you look petty if you get shown how meq lists can succeed against wolves and then you bring xenos into the discussion as if that has a bearing. This discussion has been about other marines forces dealing with space wolves, not about other marine lists somehow dealing with space wolves AND magically being comparable to shooting from the current top xenos offenders when even without dealing with space wolves marine forces would have a hard time doing that.

The key is to have SOME firepower and if you have a unit that will suck to assault you shoot the heck out of it with your firepower. Doesn't mean your TAC marine list will have as much shooty as a Tau or Eldar list.

Skriker

I guess my point is that every SW unit sucks to assault, and marine lists don't have the firepower to cut down enough SW before they murder them. But I haven't tried grav bikers and grav cents yet. These units have to get within special weapon range of SW, and I feel that that's going to be a problem. I shouldn't have brought Xenos into it. But I'm trying to game against them as well, and I usually don't have to worry about losing to them in assault against their TROOPS.

Martel732 wrote:
Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.

You are probably right, but you keep bashing us.
>It is not our fault we still have a good Codex that is still viable.
>It is not our fault that the Tau and Eldar are on the Top.

We want what for our Space Wolf Codex is what you want from your Blood Angels Codex, Something that is fair and balance.

So can you back of on the Hate for our good luck.

 dantay_xv wrote:
They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.

I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.

I stopped using DC a while ago. They're terrible.


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 dantay_xv wrote:
They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.

I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.

I quit going all jumpers because not shooting at all in 6th is suicide. Besides, Chaos Demons and SW laugh at BA jumper lists.


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 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.

You are probably right, but you keep bashing us.
>It is not our fault we still have a good Codex that is still viable.
>It is not our fault that the Tau and Eldar are on the Top.

We want what for our Space Wolf Codex is what you want from your Blood Angels Codex, Something that is fair and balance.

So can you back of on the Hate for our good luck.

Maybe I've just played this too long. The SW are like the Yankees: been too good for too long, and that brings the hate.

Martel732 wrote:
I just because I *know* what to do doesn't mean I can do it with any given list. Again, I'm not able to tailor for SW and this changes things a lot, when they just randomly show up as my opponent. My argument is that I have to play them completely differently than every other meq list because assault it not even an option.

So you adapt. The thing is that the same reasons you are having issues with SW will give you fits against other lists too, but only the SW seem to be the burr under your saddle. Why are SW so much more heinous as opponents than playing against Taudar where you can say "Oh I lost to the best"? Why is it is such a travesty to lose a game to space wolves, but not a travesty to lose to the cheesiest netlist infected combo out there, Taudar? Would Space wolves be "the best" of the marines in this case?

You seem to be implying in your commentary about your local meta that you can come up with a list that is effective against other marine chapters AND xenos and other forces, but is complete and utter crap against space wolves just because grey hunters are so good in assault. Is that really the point you are getting to here? If so that is one army out of 16 currently available full army codecies that is giving you a hard time. I consider that a pretty good record for a single army build. If that is not what you are saying, what exactly is your point because your position really doesn't make much of any sense anymore?

Skriker

Yeah, it's probably the case that by now I'm conditioned to lose to Taudar, but SW are the final insult. Taudar are a completely different animal than BA or C:SM, so it's harder to compare. Also, if I tried real hard and played well in 5th, I could beat SW with BA, and now that is taken away as well.

But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.

Sure, I know that SW are no better off against Screamerstars or Seer Councils, because 30 attacks that do nothing are no better than 10 attacks that do nothing. But it makes a huge difference against other lists that actually might want to assault once in a while.

Oh no. I'm not implying that I can be effective against Xenos and marines. Not at all. What is true is that my lists that do pretty well against other marines lose magnificently against SW because SW rule out assault so completely. It's much harder to compare against Xenos. I never meant to imply that.


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