Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.

You should also be comparing Blood Angel Assault Marines to Grey Hunters if you are talking Assaults, because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault.
Yes Grey Hunters get more attacks than Tactical Marines when Receiving a Charge, but Blood Angels Assault Marines get the same number on the Charge. You can also pull off 3-4 Flamer Templates on both the offence. Your Veteran Sergeant with his Power Sword can also take down up to 4 Grey Hunters and not be Challenged Block.
On the Defense you can still pull off the 3-4 Flamer Templates and 3 Power Weapon Attacks. Also unless thing go wrong you should never be in the position to be assaulted.

I can't use power swords anymore. I have to use axes to game for 2+ armor.

So I cross the battlefield with ASM and assault you and take overwatch just to be equally matched by your FOOT TROOPS? Do you not see where this is an issue? GH also have 24" guns, and ASM do not. GH own BA ASM.

"because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault. "

That's funny, because GW still charges for grenades, WS 4 and S 4 on them.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's probably the case that by now I'm conditioned to lose to Taudar, but SW are the final insult. Taudar are a completely different animal than BA or C:SM, so it's harder to compare. Also, if I tried real hard and played well in 5th, I could beat SW with BA, and now that is taken away as well.

But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.

Sure, I know that SW are no better off against Screamerstars or Seer Councils, because 30 attacks that do nothing are no better than 10 attacks that do nothing. But it makes a huge difference against other lists that actually might want to assault once in a while.

Oh no. I'm not implying that I can be effective against Xenos and marines. Not at all. What is true is that my lists that do pretty well against other marines lose magnificently against SW because SW rule out assault so completely. It's much harder to compare against Xenos. I never meant to imply that. ]

Honestly thanks for the clarificaiton. That is why I asked. It does still come back to: my assault army doesn't to well assaulting a unit that is better in melee. That falls into the category of "excrement happens". Yeah grey hunters are good for their cost, but they aren't a dozen pages of complaints good. They get just as beat up by the other forces that beat up on your force too. The problem is that your anger is directed at the wrong place. You touched on it a bit when you mentioned previously that GW has only left you with spite when dealing with certain armies. Space wolves haven't changed at all. Blood Angels got their "web codex" and got shafted, yet again. On top of that the changes to assault have made an army that focuses on assault even weaker. Those are faults of the new BA book and the new rules and have nothing specificlaly to do with the Space wolves. The only place there is a difference betweeen BA, C:SM and Taudar is in your head. All space wolves are is another army that you can't beat well with the army you like to play. Just because they are marines doesn't mean you should be equal footing with them. If blood angels and wolves were the same they wouldn't have separate books.

Blood angels are one of the worst lists right now and you should be happy about those forces that you CAN beat consistently since the way GW has been going you could be losing to everyone at this stage.

Skriker

Martel732 wrote:
I can't use power swords anymore. I have to use axes to game for 2+ armor.

So I cross the battlefield with ASM and assault you and take overwatch just to be equally matched by your FOOT TROOPS? Do you not see where this is an issue? GH also have 24" guns, and ASM do not. GH own BA ASM.

"because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault. "

That's funny, because GW still charges for grenades, WS 4 and S 4 on them.

That is what Blood Angels do! They are an Assault Army! You have a 1 in 6 chance of Even your Tactical Squads being able to pull of a decent assault and you can make that a 50/50 chance with a Special Character.

You say you stopped using Death Company. I just looked at Death Company.
Cons:
>Cost: They Cost more than Most MEQs
>Limited #: Witch can be offset by a Character
>Non-Scoring:

Pros:
>Rage: +2 Attacks on the Assault. That is 5 Attacks on the Assault.
>Furious Charge: +1 Strength on the Assault
>Fearless: No need for Moral Checks
>Relentless: Assault 2 at 12” Bolt Guns at the cost of one Attack.
>Feel No Pain: A second 5+ Save.

One unit of 10 in a Rhino with 2 Hand Flamers and 2 Power Weapon is around 300 points, 400 with Jump Packs. Yes that is a lot of points, but unless you are getting pounded by S8 Weapons they should be relatively resilient.

No, they die to any strength weapon just fine. Been there, done that. DC are horrible because they don't score and are vulnerable to spoiling attacks. They lose all their goodies if they get assaulted, which is the exact opposite of the GH!

With the lists I play against, DC would be shot off the table immediately. Or really any list. What list wouldn't just shoot them first? They are so expensive that even MLs are efficient against them.

I have basically stopped using BA as an assault army, which is why I'm running them more as "counts as" C:SM.

Yeah DC look horrible... but they need to be fixed in the BA codex, not the SW codex, sooo....

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah DC look horrible... but they need to be fixed in the BA codex, not the SW codex, sooo....

Right. So this goes back to the empasse of what exactly to put into the SW codex. I don't think they should be better than C:SM AGAIN, but somehow I think that they will be. At the very least, rune priests need to be brought back to Earth. But just as Eldar lost the obnoxious runes of warding and gained so much more, I bet that's what happens with SW. Again.

GH really need to be only two attacks when assaulted, I don't care how they implement it. Take the units no one uses in the SW codex (because why take anything other than GH, right?) and buff them to compete with GH. The current SW codex is actually not very good from an internal balance standpoint, because the answer is almost always, "Take more GH!"

Ok I just started this to keep the Blood Angles Discussion going without cluttering up the Space Wolves Thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581668.page

Martel732 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah DC look horrible... but they need to be fixed in the BA codex, not the SW codex, sooo....

...At the very least, rune priests need to be brought back to Earth...

GH really need to be only two attacks when assaulted, I don't care how they implement it. Take the units no one uses in the SW codex (because why take anything other than GH, right?) and buff them to compete with GH. The current SW codex is actually not very good from an internal balance standpoint, because the answer is almost always, "Take more GH!"

For all the noise... that's basically what's been stated by many people already. I think GH should only be 2 attacks if they get charged and be about 14 or 15pts (I think that's as good as most Chapter tactics). If they stay 3 attacks when they get charged, they need to be more like 16pts, maybe 17. The BC need to be cheaper, Long Fangs more expensive and the Fast Attack section needs some balancing.

I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.

By the way Martel, have you tried playing a Space Wolf List Yourself?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.

You should also be comparing Blood Angel Assault Marines to Grey Hunters if you are talking Assaults, because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault.
Yes Grey Hunters get more attacks than Tactical Marines when Receiving a Charge, but Blood Angels Assault Marines get the same number on the Charge. You can also pull off 3-4 Flamer Templates on both the offence. Your Veteran Sergeant with his Power Sword can also take down up to 4 Grey Hunters and not be Challenged Block.
On the Defense you can still pull off the 3-4 Flamer Templates and 3 Power Weapon Attacks. Also unless thing go wrong you should never be in the position to be assaulted.

As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.

You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.

Balance.

 Anpu42 wrote:
By the way Martel, have you tried playing a Space Wolf List Yourself?

Yes. Mainly in 5th to prove my point about them. I slaughtered 4 others, only losing to IG. Although the Eldar were tight even back then, because they just shot and shot and shot. The people who tried to fight me in HTH just died like slime. A much easier list to run than BA ever have been. I just stand and shoot and dare others to assault me. The Eldar were harder because they made me come get them. Eldraad was double fortuning war walkers in ruins. That was ugly man.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.
You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.

Well I do want something fair and balanced. I also think that this can be achieved by making other units better and more desirable rather than gutting the two “Must Take” Units, the Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.

Giving them C:SM pricing is essentially making them more expensive. At the moment you take heavy bolters or missile launchers to absorb some wounds, C:SM pricing would make both of those 5pts more expensive per model. Basically I want to see Predators being a more viable option compared to Long Fangs in the Heavy Support slot.

Actually, I don't mind HB being 5pts, I don't really think they're worth 10pts, but I like them at 5pts.

Non-fast predators are kind of a bummer, I'll warn you. It's hard to get all the weapons in arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.
You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.

Well I do want something fair and balanced. I also think that this can be achieved by making other units better and more desirable rather than gutting the two “Must Take” Units, the Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

Giving GH merely double the amount of attacks when charged instead of triple is not "gutting". Long Fangs are not what I have a problem with at all. In fact, I think MLs are pretty much crap.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.

Giving them C:SM pricing is essentially making them more expensive. At the moment you take heavy bolters or missile launchers to absorb some wounds, C:SM pricing would make both of those 5pts more expensive per model. Basically I want to see Predators being a more viable option compared to Long Fangs in the Heavy Support slot.

Actually, I don't mind HB being 5pts, I don't really think they're worth 10pts, but I like them at 5pts.

I like the were they are sitting, though I would like my Auto-Cannon Long Fangs back.

I would like to see a more competative Predator, maybe Auto Cannon Sponons?

GH are limited to 2 attacks if they are firing at 24"

If they are an assault TAC squad then 3 attacks
1+2cc weapons + Charge or
1 + 2 CC weapons + counter attack (which isnt a guaranteed thing)

Play WYSIWYG because that kills the shooting effectiveness or CC effectiveness of the army.

Either we get our 24" rapid fire gun lines and a couple of special weapons which means we cant assault and shoot at the same time unless given relentless by Grimnar
OR
We get 10 shots at 12" and additional attacks but we arent able to out shoot anything like that WS and BS is MEQ


Longfangs to Devastators, We can split fire between two options as long as the captain doesn't fire.

Devastators can up their BS to 5 if their captain doesnt fire

our assault marines do not gain multiple attacks (and their WS/BS is MEQ-1 for a few additional attacks that probably wont land (there is your statistical fact)


Look at what we have for troops MEQ-1 or MEQ+1 no in between and I am not sorry about that. I am sorry you cannot build a sufficient list or have a good enough grasp of battlefield awareness or tactics to fight against wolves


Edited for rule #1 - MT11

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
GH are limited to 2 attacks if they are firing at 24"

If they are an assault TAC squad then 3 attacks
1+2cc weapons + Charge or
1 + 2 CC weapons + counter attack (which isnt a guaranteed thing)

Play WYSIWYG because that kills the shooting effectiveness or CC effectiveness of the army.

You do realize that Grey Hunters have BP/CCW and a Bolter baseline, yes? WYSIWYG has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

Longfangs to Devastators, We can split fire between two options as long as the captain doesn't fire.

Devastators can up their BS to 5 if their captain doesnt fire

ONE Devastator can get BS5. Not all of them.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

our assault marines do not gain multiple attacks (and their WS/BS is MEQ-1 for a few additional attacks that probably wont land (there is your statistical fact)

WS3 is identical to WS4 for purposes of attacking stuff up until WS7, so I think you'll find that those additional attacks will hit the vast majority of targets just as easily as if they'd been WS4. It only matters against WS3, WS7 and WS8.

Edited for rule #1 MT11

I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)

I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness

I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW

but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)

I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness

I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW

but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.

You do relise that most of us Space Wolf Players have enough Chain Swords and Combat knife in tiier bits boxs to equip an Imperial Guard Regiment.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)

I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness

I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW

but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.

You do relise that most of us Space Wolf Players have enough Chain Swords and Combat knife in tiier bits boxs to equip an Imperial Guard Regiment.

Yup, and if you are gonna play in a WYSIWYG area, take the time to paint and put em on your marines.

as a SW player problem solved, if you play against em be sure to be vigilant on which models hve what.

We don't play WYSIWYG. And that's a lame end-around to the codex anyway.

Meh, I put the chainswords in a box and gave about 90% of them an axe instead waving bolters 1 handed or stuck the axe int the base as if its embeddedin the ground ready for them to pull out and hack someone... It works for me

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
GH are limited to 2 attacks if they are firing at 24"

If they are an assault TAC squad then 3 attacks
1+2cc weapons + Charge or
1 + 2 CC weapons + counter attack (which isnt a guaranteed thing)

Play WYSIWYG because that kills the shooting effectiveness or CC effectiveness of the army.

I don't like that, because all Marines have Bolt Pistols whether they're modeled or not and it would be odd if the model had Bolter + CCW modeled but then couldn't use the CCW because they had no Bolt Pistol or could not use the Bolter because they were carrying a CCW.

And no, I don't want to have to remodel my GH.

 Frankenberry wrote:


As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.

But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?

I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.

I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?

BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.

You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.

I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.

You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.

You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.

Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.

You have 3 turns of shooting with your Grey Hunters and you can tank with a Terminator Wolf Guard and the Wolf Banner.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:


As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.

But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?

I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.

I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?

BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.

You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.

I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.

You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.

You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.

Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.

I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...

If and when my SW force ever takes off fully, I'd like to field other units besides those required by the general meta. I'd like to see TWC, dreadnoughts, and more special characters being viable. The only unique character I've seen appear on the board has been Grimnar (lets face it, the guy is a beast), I want that to change.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:


As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.

But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?

I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.

I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?

BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.

You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.

I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.

You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.

You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.

Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.

Because you can't get a full ASM squad into combat against a good SW player. Descent of Angels is garbage and always has been. Non-drop pod deep striking is a horrible mechanic.

Grey Hunters have much better shooting in a shooting edition. You figure it out from there.