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 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:
As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.

On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!

On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.

As I said, if you want to make him better check out these links.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552301.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/552309.page#6051118
Both have rules in them, and various amendments to Dreadnoughts including some funky relics.

I have looked tham over, but I would have to talk to my group about using them.

 dantay_xv wrote:
Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?

The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.

Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.

At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.

So the drawback is that your guy that gives FnP, Hatred and Fearless can be killed just like anything else in the game? Yeah...

EDIT: The only ones who get to buy Apothecaries as standalone units are Blood Angels, and that's part of their schtick.

 dantay_xv wrote:
Cheers for that Anpu, I always thought litanies of war or whatever its called could be used in melee.

Actualy it is the Ranged Re-Rolls part that makles them good for Long Fangs.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:
As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.

On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!

On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.

As I said, if you want to make him better check out these links.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552301.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/552309.page#6051118
Both have rules in them, and various amendments to Dreadnoughts including some funky relics.

I have looked tham over, but I would have to talk to my group about using them.

Not saying you should use the army list as it's not even done, just some general improvements to the points costs of weapons and different ways to run a Dreadnought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?

The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.

Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.

At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.

So the drawback is that your guy that gives FnP, Hatred and Fearless can be killed just like anything else in the game? Yeah...

Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?
I agree with the above ^
You're also forgetting that Blood Angles are all about Apothecaries and Chaplains. That's like a Blood Angels player complaining that they don't get Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Its just a thought wally & as if GW would listen to me anyways I thought it would be fluffy. As they are the flesh weavers of the Aett as well as the spiritual leaders, but there is nothing to show their duality within the game mechanics..

But I could see how your head would explode if a wolfpriest with his uber badass grey hunters showed up in 1 unit

Hakuna matata!!

Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).

Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.

I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.

Dreadnaughts should get counter attack

DOOMONYOU wrote:

Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

Which is currently a BT thing.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:

Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

Which is currently a BT thing.

I love how everyone is talking about giving SWs Crusader and 6+ FNP etc.
Way to make Black Templars more useless than they already are..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?

Because it's been that way through 5 editions and 20 years of Space Wolves being around. Wolf Priests have always been the Apothecaries.

If I wanted Codex Marines, I'd collect Codex Marines.

I don't necessarily want a Wolf Priest (game wise) to be an Apoth + a Chaplain rolled in to one model, give the Wolf Priest it's own abilities, make it balanced and worth taking and I'm happy. I'm mostly happy with how the Wolf Priest is at the moment.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

I like that as a concept.

I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.

I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.

Dreadnaughts should get counter attack

Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?

Because it's been that way through 5 editions and 20 years of Space Wolves being around. Wolf Priests have always been the Apothecaries.

If I wanted Codex Marines, I'd collect Codex Marines.

I don't necessarily want a Wolf Priest (game wise) to be an Apoth + a Chaplain rolled in to one model, give the Wolf Priest it's own abilities, make it balanced and worth taking and I'm happy. I'm mostly happy with how the Wolf Priest is at the moment.

What people want is an Apoth+Chappy in one unit, which I think is ridiculous.
What you're asking for is called 'reasonable', something some people might want to learn on this forum.

Dreadnoughts having counterattack would be meaningless.

Chill BOB. Its not everyone, so far just me for fnp and 1 person mentioned thrallss... which I thionk would be meh, I always thought thralls as being defenders so they stayed in the Aett or on the ships to help heal or defend.
Wolf Priests would I believe generally oversee the Blood Claws as teyt are still coming through their training, so need the guidance and cool head.
I would consider ALLYING with Guard and using them as thralls, but again for fluff reasons, such as recreating the battle of the fang or say Armageddon troops from the 1st battle of Armageddon

 Anpu42 wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

I like that as a concept.

I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.

I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.

Dreadnaughts should get counter attack

Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.

'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.

It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.

 dantay_xv wrote:
It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.

You realize that your proposal is making your model count smaller and smaller.

 dantay_xv wrote:
It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.

You're getting more out of your slots, is what I'm making clear here.
Instead of taking a Sanguiniary Priest (Elites Slot) and a Chaplain (Elites Slot) or a High Chaplain guy (HQ Slot) you want to take a Wolf Priest that do both jobs in 1 HQ Slot.
There's also the fact that putting the points of something up doesn't make it fair to have in the Codex. I could put a Primarch in a Codex and say 'well the points cost is up to scratch, so that's okay right?'

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

I like that as a concept.

I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.

I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.

Dreadnaughts should get counter attack

Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.

'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.

I have no issue with them being better in the same way Wolf Guard Terminators are better than Space Marine Terminators.
In thier raw simple form they are Cheeper with a Multi-Melta and a Power Weapon, but Add in an Assualt Cannon and a Frost Weapon or Chain Fist they become much more expesive.

Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.

I like that as a concept.

I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.

I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.

Dreadnaughts should get counter attack

Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.

'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.

I have no issue with them being better in the same way Wolf Guard Terminators are better than Space Marine Terminators.
In thier raw simple form they are Cheeper with a Multi-Melta and a Power Weapon, but Add in an Assualt Cannon and a Frost Weapon or Chain Fist they become much more expesive.

See my above point.
Just putting the points cost up doesn't make it fair, and you're still packing more punch per slot than normal SMs.
All you're asking for here is far more customisability than normal SMs for every choice. You want more on your Dreads, different wargear on your HQs, better characters and all this.
And of course they're going to be more expensive with a Chain Fist. That's like saying.
Oh yes well my Space Marine may be cheaper than your Grey Hunter but when I give him this lascannon he gets way more expensive! That's fair, right? RIGHT GUYS??

It would be... Fun!!

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.

But you're not asking to be specialized, you're asking to be more customizable than normal marines.
To have Storm Shields and Frost Axes, Power Weapons etc. on your Dreadnoughts.
That's not being specialized, that's wanting the pick of everything. If you wanted to be specialized then you'd forgo ranged entirely and have pure combat options on your Dreadnoughts, and all that.
Even your main infantry is unspecialized, Grey Hunters have everything. Boltgun, Boltpistol, Combat Weapons, Grenades...

Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.

like being able to run dreadnaughts with IWND

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.

As opposed to every other Space Marine army, which is supposed to be what, exactly?

DOOMONYOU wrote:

Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.

like being able to run dreadnaughts with IWND

Exactly. Or having them with Storm Shields and Frost Axes.

I didnt ask for that Anpu did, I model them on anyway and just use them as regular stuff... because it gives the models more flavour.
And all those things you listed to go on the dreadnought are Assault not ranged weapons.
So yes fine, take all the guns away, you know what having a hardcore berserker dreadnought would be fun and fluffy.

And IWND would come via how? Wouldnt I need an Iron Priest or a n allie Forge father or something?

 dantay_xv wrote:
I didnt ask for that Anpu did, I model them on anyway and just use them as regular stuff... because it gives the models more flavour.
And all those things you listed to go on the dreadnought are Assault not ranged weapons.
So yes fine, take all the guns away, you know what having a hardcore berserker dreadnought would be fun and fluffy.

And IWND would come via how? Wouldnt I need an Iron Priest or a n allie Forge father or something?

You agreed with him when he said they should get Storm Shields and Frost Axes.
And, yes I know, your point is..?

Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.

Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.

Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.

Because I thought he was considering an all dreadnought army, like the lists you were linking?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Because I thought he was considering an all dreadnought army, like the lists you were linking?

Well I would love to do that, that does not feel compleatly right. Having someone like a MotF that allow you to take them as Elites or Heavys would be nice.