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 dantay_xv wrote:
100% agree about Logan Grimanr, I have a Legion Praetor waiting to be turned into the old wolf, I just need to figure out how to pleat his hair and beard.

Yeup

And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble

His price is one of the reasons I feel his 24” Bubble should stay.
>He cost almost as much as 3 Rune Priest and covers the area.
>One S8 Weapon Removes the Bubble
He still will not be justified fielding by many because of those two things.

 dantay_xv wrote:

And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble

To be honest, fluff-wise, what has Njal actually done? I mean, I know he's the ranking Librarian, but what has he actually done? Tigurius linked up with the hive mind, Mephiston did his thing, what has Njal done to put him on par with them?

That said, make the Rune Weapon a Psychic Hood and drop costs appropriately. Don't make Njal stronger, make him cheaper and actually worth taking.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:

And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble

To be honest, fluff-wise, what has Njal actually done? I mean, I know he's the ranking Librarian, but what has he actually done? Tigurius linked up with the hive mind, Mephiston did his thing, what has Njal done to put him on par with them?

That said, make the Rune Weapon a Psychic Hood and drop costs appropriately. Don't make Njal stronger, make him cheaper and actually worth taking.

I have found him worth taking right now. His Lord of Tempest Power have won many a game for me.
Murderous Hurricane and Storm Caller mixed with Lord of Tempest destroys the Maneuvering of enemy armies, it’s like getting 3 Psychic powers off a turn, one with out rolling a LD test for.

I do take him occasionally, but I can see why others dont, in order to unleash more psychic attacks.
And Iwouldnt make him much stronger, there is no need for the belt of russ as he already has a 2+ 4+, and I prefer the terminator version. Have GW stopped doing the PA Njal? Bring him up to 3 wounds to match Tiggy

I find the choosers excellentwith their denial of infiltration 24" bubble

Drager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not saying Swift Claws shouldn't have some better incentive to take them, but jink is not the answer.

All bikes have jink... do swiftclaws have a special rule taking it away or something?

Sorry was thinking Blood Claws.

 dantay_xv wrote:
I do take him occasionally, but I can see why others dont, in order to unleash more psychic attacks.
And Iwouldnt make him much stronger, there is no need for the belt of russ as he already has a 2+ 4+, and I prefer the terminator version. Have GW stopped doing the PA Njal? Bring him up to 3 wounds to match Tiggy

I find the choosers excellentwith their denial of infiltration 24" bubble

He shouldn't have the 24" denial bubble, it's absolutely ridiculous.
I agree with.. I forget. But give him a Psychic Hood instead and drop his points. Why should he have 3 wounds? Normal Librarians have 2 wounds. Lemartes has 2 wounds because he's a Chaplain etc.
Belt of Russ would be good on the non-Terminator version, and it would also make people think twice about taking the Terminator version because you waste your BoR. And no, he doesn't already have a 2+ 4++, he has that with Terminator Armour, not on foot. And no they haven't stopped doing the PA Njal, he just sucks.
Also, why even collect Space Wolves if you want your characters to be like the ones in the Vanilla SM Codex? Make him your own, don't "match Tiggy"

I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise

Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.

Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.

You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...

So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect

 dantay_xv wrote:
I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise

Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.

Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.

You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...

So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect

Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by

 Anpu42 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise

Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.

Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.

You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...

So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect

Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by

If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise

Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.

Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.

You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...

So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect

Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by

If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.

As for keeping alive, that double PotW is the only time I have lost him.
As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise

Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.

Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.

You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...

So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect

Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by

If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.

As for keeping alive, that double PotW is the only time I have lost him.
As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.

EW is for the best of the best.
You're not meant to just chuck it about..

 Anpu42 wrote:
Some HQ Thoughts:
Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.

I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.

Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good

Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Some HQ Thoughts:
Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.

I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.

Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good

Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.

Yes logan looks good untill he is placed next to other Wolf Guard, then he is a Dwarf

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Some HQ Thoughts:
Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.

I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.

Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good

Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.

Canis is the worst SW model. Look at my profile pic if you'd like to see why.

Martel732 wrote:
I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.

So because you personally don't use it that makes it a pointless ability? Yeah that makes sense. Not every game is against wave serpents and Riptides so splitting fire can be quite useful. It really is funny how vehmently angry you are at grey hunters because they make things tough for you and you are completely nonchalant about a quite potent capability like splitting fire. Splitting fire *should* be a free ability for every model in the game. Since not every model gets it, then there should be a cost for Long Fangs to be the only ones to have it. Just fair.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.

So because you personally don't use it that makes it a pointless ability? Yeah that makes sense. Not every game is against wave serpents and Riptides so splitting fire can be quite useful. It really is funny how vehmently angry you are at grey hunters because they make things tough for you and you are completely nonchalant about a quite potent capability like splitting fire. Splitting fire *should* be a free ability for every model in the game. Since not every model gets it, then there should be a cost for Long Fangs to be the only ones to have it. Just fair.

Skriker

Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.

Split fire isn't really about massing fire against multiple targets, it's about being able to take a couple of lascannons and a bunch of heavy bolters, using the heavy bolters to soak up wounds while still being useful (or missile launchers).

My typical Long Fang squad is 3 heavy bolters and 2 Lascannons. Heavy Bolters aren't great against MEQ, but they're good against basically every other army. Even against MEQ they'll often make their points back though (depending on how long they live!) and give the lascannons a better chance of surviving long enough to do some damage.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Split fire isn't really about massing fire against multiple targets, it's about being able to take a couple of lascannons and a bunch of heavy bolters, using the heavy bolters to soak up wounds while still being useful (or missile launchers).

My typical Long Fang squad is 3 heavy bolters and 2 Lascannons. Heavy Bolters aren't great against MEQ, but they're good against basically every other army. Even against MEQ they'll often make their points back though (depending on how long they live!) and give the lascannons a better chance of surviving long enough to do some damage.

Mine are done up similar
1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon and 2x Missile Launchers. Split fire lets me be flexable.

 Anpu42 wrote:
As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.

Please no, combat Wolf Lords need it to stop from getting killed by random TH/PF/MCs and stay a viable option in comparison to TWC Lords.

The sagas need to stay, they are all about making your lords unique. If anything more sagas need to be included.

Saga of the bear is limited to only 1 model in the whole army, if you get rid of that might as well get rid of the shield eternal next space marine codex release

I did not say I wanted Saga of the Bear to go, just that if it want away it would not upset me.

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.

And that is fine, but usefulness of abilities is not determined solely by your peronsal opinions on the matter, which was my point. The flexibility of splitting fire is exceptionally useful and it is silly that long fangs get the ability and no one else does and they should HAVE to pay for that ability. Right now despite that ability they cost less than regular devastators. 40k is one of the few games with this silly requirement that the entire unit must all shoot at the same target. This often leads to situations where shooting attacks are wasted because they can't affect the targe that part of the squad is shooting at. It is quite powerful to split the fire in a unit that can include AT and non-AT weapons.

I have a unit of devastators with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannon. They are being attacked by assaulting troops and a leman russ tank. They have to choose: Shoot at the tank, and lose heavy bolter shots, or shoot the troops and completely ignore the tank. If that unit is long fangs, they can take multiple AT shots at the tank AND open up on the assaulting troops with their heavy bolters. That can be a BIG difference in a game.

If I am shooting the heck out of grey hunters from across the table their "triple attacks when assaulted" have ZERO impact on me. So that ability is JUST the same as splitting fire. In some situations either can be really useful/powerful and in others they don't matter than much.

Justt because YOU don't consider splitting fire potent, doesn't change the fact that it actually is quite potent and just because you had the grey hunters when they are assaulted, doesn't mean that is total stymie for every opponent.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.

And that is fine, but usefulness of abilities is not determined solely by your peronsal opinions on the matter, which was my point. The flexibility of splitting fire is exceptionally useful and it is silly that long fangs get the ability and no one else does and they should HAVE to pay for that ability. Right now despite that ability they cost less than regular devastators. 40k is one of the few games with this silly requirement that the entire unit must all shoot at the same target. This often leads to situations where shooting attacks are wasted because they can't affect the targe that part of the squad is shooting at. It is quite powerful to split the fire in a unit that can include AT and non-AT weapons.

I have a unit of devastators with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannon. They are being attacked by assaulting troops and a leman russ tank. They have to choose: Shoot at the tank, and lose heavy bolter shots, or shoot the troops and completely ignore the tank. If that unit is long fangs, they can take multiple AT shots at the tank AND open up on the assaulting troops with their heavy bolters. That can be a BIG difference in a game.

If I am shooting the heck out of grey hunters from across the table their "triple attacks when assaulted" have ZERO impact on me. So that ability is JUST the same as splitting fire. In some situations either can be really useful/powerful and in others they don't matter than much.

Justt because YOU don't consider splitting fire potent, doesn't change the fact that it actually is quite potent and just because you had the grey hunters when they are assaulted, doesn't mean that is total stymie for every opponent.

Skriker

Actually I think we do pay for the Split Fire.
>We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do.
>We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be.

As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack.

I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?

I suppose that Long Fangs being able to do something that no others can do should cost them something, even its something I've learned to live without for a long time. I don't feel that lack of split fire has ever cost me a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do. "

This is an advantage. Meat shields for devs are bad, because they are dead weight. You could be bringing more models that DO something.

"We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be. "

No, it's not a big deal at all. So your long fangs haven't paid a thing.

"As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack."

Great for Tau, a disaster for meq lists that can't out shoot the SW. Can't out shoot, can't assault. What are they to do?

Martel732 wrote:
I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?

I suppose that Long Fangs being able to do something that no others can do should cost them something, even its something I've learned to live without for a long time. I don't feel that lack of split fire has ever cost me a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do. "

This is an advantage. Meat shields for Devs are bad, because they are dead weight. You could be bringing more models that DO something.

They are Bolter Armed Marines, which you feel are worthless no mater what, but they are still 5 more Bolt Guns to though out fire. In the Big Guns Missions you can also Combat Squad and have another Scoring unit.

"We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be. "
No, it's not a big deal at all. So your long fangs haven't paid a thing.

Neither have Devastators paid for the BS5

"As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack."
Great for Tau, a disaster for meq lists that can't out shoot the SW. Can't out shoot, can't assault. What are they to do?

How can you not outshoot me, we are armed basically the same, Shooting is equal. Unless you are talking Blood Angel Assault Squads who can easily arrange for 5 Attacks on the Assault.

"They are Bolter Armed Marines, which you feel are worthless no mater what, but they are still 5 more Bolt Guns to though out fire. In the Big Guns Missions you can also Combat Squad and have another Scoring unit. "

Bolter armed marines are basically worthless. Instead of meat shields for devs, I could have any number of other more killy units that will draw fire off the Long Fangs.

"Neither have Devastators paid for the BS5 "

But then why do Long Fangs still end up cheaper? What's the justification?

"How can you not outshoot me, we are armed basically the same, Shooting is equal. Unless you are talking Blood Angel Assault Squads who can easily arrange for 5 Attacks on the Assault. "

Double special weapons, cheap Long Fangs, and not having to include anti-horde tech into your list might have something to do with it. You GH just existing are anti-horde. If you don't understand how much of an advantage this is, you need to play Astartes marines some more until you figure it out.

BA ASM can't get 5 attacks on the assault. They get 3. You knowledge of C:BA is not inspiring confidence in your ability to assess the situation.

The Codex: Blood Angels are an Edition behind and have not received their points adjustment. This is why we are cheeper right NOW.
Tactical Marines:
>Codex: Blood Angles: 16ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 14ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Grey Hunters: 15ppm
Assault Squads with Jump Packs:
>Codex: Blood Angles: 18ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 17ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Skyclaws: 18ppm
Devastators:
>Codex: Blood Angles: 16ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 14ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Long Fongs: 15ppm

This is why we are cheaper that Blood Angles

Don't forget the Skyclaws are BS/WS 3 and can't ditch their jump packs for a free transport and don't get a Ld up from a built in Sgt.

The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.

I don't have the book in front of me, but aren't Long Fangs with MLs cheaper than C:SM devs with MLs?

And where were you getting 5 attacks?

And you didn't address the built-in anti-horde capability. You can afford to load up on plasma, because gaunts and Orks can beat you even if they assault.

Jefffar wrote:
The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.

That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).