What do you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?

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**Martel732**

Skriker wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?

Because a lot of the time it is about taking on all comers, so you can't just load up on all lascannons because it will screw you if you end up in a game against an opponent with an army made up of 200 slugga and shoota boyz. Just like arming them all with heavy bolters makes them a bit useless when faced with an army like a 'nidzilla full of lots of hard targets instead. My khorne chaos havocs I equip with 1 lascannon, 1 auto-cannon and 2 missile launchers each. That gives them the flexibility to deal with a variety of different target types out there. Auto cannon and frag missile shots for the troops and las cannon and krak missiles for the hard targets. Add in some flakk missiles and they can cover flying targets as well, though I do have a chaos Hell blade in my khorne army for air cover. The havocs in all 3 of my other chaos marine armies also carry a variety of weapons, though I don't remember them exactly the same since I haven't been playing them since the dawn of time like my khorne marines.

Skriker

You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.

**Anpu42**

Martel732 wrote:
">I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose. "

Looking at your analysis again, I just don't think you appreciate your situation. Your GH are being assaulted by dedicated CC troops. Not only do they get overwatch, they will almost certainly straight up win if you roll "8" or less on two dice.

Other marines assaulted by dedicated assault troops don't get to roll at all. They just die. Can you see where this worth substantial points? Remember that marines, unlike Tau or Eldar, generally don't have the firepower to keep other lists out of assault.

Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines.

Grey Hunters have to tow the line for the whole Army. Grey Hunters have to more than Tactical Squads
>Assault Squads: Ours Suck
>Tactical Squads: This is one of out jobs.
>In some cases Scouts: This does require a Character, but sometime they are called to do that job.
In a realistic enrolment I only have one choice to do everything, Grey Hunters.

So they need to be Space Marines +1.
Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability. And should always be they that way. I don’t mind paying a premium for this.

The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault.

**Martel732**

"Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "

Because you aren't paying enough for your +1. And your +1 is more like +3.

">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "

Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?

"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."

This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.

"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "

Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.

**Skriker**

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

Sorry but "I can complain about this as much as I want because it's true!" is not an effective argument and is just, in fact, MORE whining about the subject. The whining aspect has nothing to do with the *validity* of the argument, but the incessant and constant restating and complaining about it dozens of times over and over again in this thread and others like it.

Skriker

**Martel732**

So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

**Anpu42**

Martel732 wrote:
"Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "

Becouse they are not Normal Villila Space Marines.

Because you aren't paying enough for your +1.

>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine.
>We have no Long Range Capability
>To get a “Sergeant” is cost us an Elite Slot and most likely a Special Weapon.
>We are paying for a Useless USR [Acute Senses]

">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "

Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?

>I was told that and Immediately admitted to my mistake.
>They are over cost [Just like Blood Angels Assault Squad]
>WS3
>Can Not take Sargents

"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."

This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.

No it is not unfair if I am paying for it and we are.

"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "

Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.

You are also a Codex behind right now.

**Skriker**

Martel732 wrote:
[You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.

Wow Really?? All this time I've been doing it wrong. Thanks for helping me see the light Martel...

Yeah right...if the way things are didn't work for me I wouldn't do it. So you build armies the way you want and I'll build armies the way I want. I've been playing this game for a LONG time and do things the way I do because they are quite effective and have been for years. I didn't post up my examples for you to critique them and tell me I am doing it wrong. I put them up specifically to answer your statement that you saw no reason why any non-long fangs would ever choose different weapons. I gave you examples and explained why. Just because it is not the way you do it doesn't make it an invalid approach and given I have plenty of experience in this game, I will happily stick with what works for me.

Skriker

**Anpu42**

Skriker wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
[You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.

Wow Really?? All this time I've been doing it wrong. Thanks for helping me see the light Martel...

Yeah right...if the way things are didn't work for me I wouldn't do it. So you build armies the way you want and I'll build armies the way I want. I've been playing this game for a LONG time and do things the way I do because they are quite effective and have been for years. I didn't post up my examples for you to critique them and tell me I am doing it wrong. I put them up specifically to answer your statement that you saw no reason why any non-long fangs would ever choose different weapons. I gave you examples and explained why. Just because it is not the way you do it doesn't make it an invalid approach and given I have plenty of experience in this game, I will happily stick with what works for me.

Skriker

The only reason to take difrent Weapons is you are planing Combat Squading.
My two Devistaor Squads I do is 4x Plasma Cannons for my TAC list. The other is 4x Heavy Bolters, but that one might broken up for Tactical Squads to make a Second 4x Plasma Cannon Squad.

**Martel732**

"You are also a Codex behind right now. "

No, both BA and SW are on 5th ed codices. In fact, in a cruel joke, the BA codex is more RECENT than the SW one.But SW wipes up BA every time and twice on Fridays.

**Anpu42**

Martel732 wrote:
"You are also a Codex behind right now. "

No, both BA and SW are on 5th ed codices. In fact, in a cruel joke, the BA codex is more RECENT than the SW one.But SW wipes up BA every time and twice on Fridays.

Yes so we are both do for an update. Thats why I created both Threads. There will be lots of changes including Price Changes everywhere.
Odds Are all of the Blood Angels will go down to be in line with Codex: Space Marines.
We are not a Codex: Space Marine Coppy Paste Codex, like a lot of the Codex: Blood Angels will be. You can look ar both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines and have a bsic concept of what you are going to get.
I have no Idea what we will get. That is part of the reason why I just want the Grey Hunters to stay the way they are. It will moke them more expesive than every other Space Marines Troop Choice other than Grey Knights.

**Martel732**

I'll admit that's probably the best I can hope for.

**Skriker**

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

Sorry, but you completely missed the point of my post. Go back and re-read it. I am not talking about the validity of the base argument at all, but the way the argument is presented. THAT is what people are refering to about whining. Trying to use the validity of the base argument to excuse the whining is what I say is invalid.

You've made your point, dozens of times at least in this thread alone. No one is denying the validity of your argument that grey hunters are crazy on the assault, but you KEEP making the same point over and over and over and over and over in response to everything. You even used it as a reason why long fangs split fire isn't important. That is how it becomes a whine.

Skriker

**AllSeeingSkink**

Anpu42 wrote:
I have no Idea what we will get. That is part of the reason why I just want the Grey Hunters to stay the way they are. It will moke them more expesive than every other Space Marines Troop Choice other than Grey Knights.

The reason I want them to change is because if they stay the same and get a price adjustment, they'll still be massively awesome against assault armies and even worse against shooting armies. I'm not a fan of big swings in balance.

**Anpu42**

Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines

This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run

All of them seem reasonably good.

**ZebioLizard2**

Anpu42 wrote:
Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines

This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run

All of them seem reasonably good.

Ability to take secondary special weapon.

Though this still shows how poor CSM is if it can't even compare to this.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Anpu42 wrote:

>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will

The fact that you think Crusader and Adamantine Will is equal to Counterattack and an extra CCW is rather depressing TBH. One is amazing, one is silly.

**Jefffar**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.
That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).

Yes, but they aren't as cheap as a normal marine sgt and I prefer to pod.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Jefffar wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.
That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).

Yes, but they aren't as cheap as a normal marine sgt and I prefer to pod.

Normal Marine Sgt: 24 points. Wolf Guard: 18 points. Wut?

**BrotherOfBone**

Anpu42 wrote:
Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines

This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run

All of them seem reasonably good.

You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.
Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.

**Jefffar**

The Veteran sgt is a 10 point upgrade that doesn't interfere with your weapon selection or transport options.

The Wolfguard is an 18 point upgrade that compromises your weapon selection and transport options.

**BrotherOfBone**

Jefffar wrote:
The Veteran sgt is a 10 point upgrade that doesn't interfere with your weapon selection or transport options.

The Wolfguard is an 18 point upgrade that compromises your weapon selection and transport options.

A 10pt upgrade from a 14pt marine.
And, Wolf Guard can be equipped with Terminator Armour. A sergeant cannot.
Wolf Guard can be equipped with a number of things a sergeant cannot.
Please, you're fighting a losing argument.
Wolf Guard are also not an 'upgrade'. It's an entirely separate unit.

**dantay_xv**

Do sargeants on tac squads take up a slot in your FOC?

**AlmightyWalrus**

dantay_xv wrote:
Do sargeants on tac squads take up a slot in your FOC?

Do you routinely use all three of your Elite slots and wish you had more slots?

**dantay_xv**

Sometimes yes.

Dread, Scouts Wolf Guard... and as I have bought a bunch of mech, maybe I want to try an Iron Priest... hmm wish I could use more wolf guard. But I cant as I dont get sargeants a an upgrade.

**BrotherOfBone**

dantay_xv wrote:
Sometimes yes.

Dread, Scouts Wolf Guard... and as I have bought a bunch of mech, maybe I want to try an Iron Priest... hmm wish I could use more wolf guard. But I cant as I dont get sargeants a an upgrade.

All you have to do is take a single Wolf Guard out of a unit (IIRC). You can also get Terminator Sergeants with CMLs, Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.

**dantay_xv**

The only time elites slots dont matter to me is in apocalypse.

Then its a free for all and I can use all 11 squads of terminator wolf guard, my squads of PA wolf guard and my biker wolf guard.

I also dont have my codex with me to back this up, but I thougt if you took wolf guard as pack leaders it wa 1 slot and a squad of wolf guard as a pack was another slot, you couldnt just pick and choose.

And for the stuff you quoted its 1 per 5, so it would deny that special weapon potentially to my wolf guards

**AllSeeingSkink**

Jefffar wrote:
The Veteran sgt is a 10 point upgrade that doesn't interfere with your weapon selection or transport options.

The Wolfguard is an 18 point upgrade that compromises your weapon selection and transport options.

Vet sergeant is 24pts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dantay_xv wrote:
And for the stuff you quoted its 1 per 5, so it would deny that special weapon potentially to my wolf guards

No, a squad of Wolf Guard is a single slot and is 3 to 10 models, you then break off models to use as pack leaders. So you could have a squad of 5 Termies + 5 pack leaders and it'd still only be 1 elite choice.

**Martel732**

Anpu42 wrote:
Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines

This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run

All of them seem reasonably good.

They're not.
Imp Fists: Re-rolling with bolt weapons is crap because bolt weapons are crap.
Raven Guard tactics are crap.
Black Templars are mega crap. (Sorry guys!)
Iron Hands is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Salamanders is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Ultramarines, frankly, I don't think are very good. Tiggy makes that list ,not their chapter tactics. SW is much better.
White Scars: best in C:SM. I'll say they are better than SW. Yay that's one.

Do you have any working concept of what make something good in this game? These abilities aren't balanced at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skriker wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

Sorry, but you completely missed the point of my post. Go back and re-read it. I am not talking about the validity of the base argument at all, but the way the argument is presented. THAT is what people are refering to about whining. Trying to use the validity of the base argument to excuse the whining is what I say is invalid.

You've made your point, dozens of times at least in this thread alone. No one is denying the validity of your argument that grey hunters are crazy on the assault, but you KEEP making the same point over and over and over and over and over in response to everything. You even used it as a reason why long fangs split fire isn't important. That is how it becomes a whine.

Skriker

So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".

**BrotherOfBone**

Martel732 wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:
Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines

This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run

All of them seem reasonably good.

They're not.
Imp Fists: Re-rolling with bolt weapons is crap because bolt weapons are crap.
Raven Guard tactics are crap.
Black Templars are mega crap. (Sorry guys!)
Iron Hands is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Salamanders is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Ultramarines, frankly, I don't think are very good. Tiggy makes that list ,not their chapter tactics. SW is much better.
White Scars: best in C:SM. I'll say they are better than SW. Yay that's one.

Do you have any working concept of what make something good in this game? These abilities aren't balanced at all.

This.

**dantay_xv**

@AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.

Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.

@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.