Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.

It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.

Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!

Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.

No Mathhammer does not prove it.
Mathhammer + Testing proves it.

Using pure Mathhammer is just a Mathematical Theory. If I only used Mathhammer Blood Claws would never be used, but I added a Wolf Priest to the Mathematical Theory and came up with a Hypothesis.

The I used the Scientific Principle of once is a Fluke, Twice is a Coincidence, three times is Proof.

The first time I took them out was in 5th edition about a week after the 5th Edition Codex Dropped.
Wolf Priest
Wolf Guard Pack Leader with a Power Weapon and a Plasma Pistol
15 Blood Claws with a pair of Flamers and a Power Weapon.

I got hit be a 5 Model Vanguard Veteran Squad [1x Relic Blade, 4x Power Weapons, 5x Storm Shields and Jump Packs] using Heroic Intervention.

Nothing went right for me.
>Failed my Counter Attack Roll with a 12.
>Took 7 unsaved Wounds and inflicted none in return,
>Failed 6 of my 7 Fearless Saves losing 13 models in one Phase.
Needless to say I lost the rest in the next Assault Phase.
Most everyone out there would tell me that is proof that Blood Claws Suck.

The Second time was a 750 point game where I took a Blood Claw Pack with a Power Fist and Wolf Priest along with a Grey Hunter Pack vs. a Tervigon, one Warrior Brood and a Genestealer Brood. The only reason I won that one was because the Nid player forgot to infiltrate his Genestealers taking him one extra turn to get them in assault range of my Grey Hunter so at the end I had one Grey Hunter left when the game ended. However my Blood Claws managed to kill off the Warriors, the Tervigon and I don’t know how many Gaunts.
They really out did themselves and my Mathematical Theory was starting to show that they were viable.

Since then they have proven to be a good solid unit when used and tooled up properly just like my Mathematical Theory showed me.

This is why I say:
I loath Mathhammer
I love Mathhammer + Play Testing

So saying Mathhammer proved it, is not proof it is just a Mathematical Theory to me just like you saying Antidotes proves nothing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?

If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.

I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.

He can all hope.

I do actually understand mathematics pretty well, because mathematics is required for the job that I do, all I am saying is that people like myself are giving practial examples, whereas people like yourself keep quoting math hammer which is a theoretical exercise in probability, however what really happens is determined by the random effects of the roll of a dice, which cannot be quantified because it is random.
Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun

 dantay_xv wrote:

Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun

Not when you don't take outliers into account.

 Jayden63 wrote:
On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?

If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.

I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.

The Runic Weapon was already better in 5th than the Hoods, then they went and neutered the Hoods but kept the Runic Weapons in. THAT'S why we're a bit annoyed.

Okay Walrus, keep telling yourself that theory is better than practical Cos after all its all in the mind isnt it?

Anyway this argument will never get resolved truly because a tactical and a grey hunter are 2 different animals with 2 different skillsets and styles of play, so there isnt much point to compare them.

Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?

Sound fun?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Okay Walrus, keep telling yourself that theory is better than practical Cos after all its all in the mind isnt it?

Anyway this argument will never get resolved truly because a tactical and a grey hunter are 2 different animals with 2 different skillsets and styles of play, so there isnt much point to compare them.

Well then, Crusader Squads. Then what? CSM? BA Assault Marines? If you think Grey Hunters are OK you're deluded, honestly.

Just for argument's sake, the furthest you can deploy away coming at you from across the table is 35".That means Tacticals have 2 turns of shooting at Grey Hunters with whatever Heavy Weapon they have, then the GH get in range and start overtaking the Tacticals, and this is with Grey Hunters just moving into range on foot.

The thing is, I've got practical on my side too. The increase in tournament Space Marine lists you referenced AREN'T playing with Tactical Marines (or, if they are, with as few as possible), they're taking Bikers as troops, because those are actually good.

I do think Grey Hunters are very good and previously I have said that if they got a points increase then no problem, but certain people want to keep the argument rolling by ignoring certain parts of what people say to make themselves feel better.
Its an argument which will not go away in the near future, so all I can say is suck it up until the new codex comes along, and GH are different to tactical marines in a number of ways where 1 has the advantage over another in 1 field while the other holds an advantag in another field, case in pointheavy weapons and chapter tactics.
Grey Hunter and tac marines are not the same, so comparisons are hard to draw. You just need to find a better way of using your 1 point cheaper tactical marines, or not use them at all.
As I only have 2 troops choices I will pick the one which best fits the bill. Just because GW decided that they would make a unit which would sacrifice long range firepower to make a more assault minded unit to be a troops choice, which fits the theme of Space Wolves isnt mine or anyone elses fault so go pester someone else
Why not compare bloodclaws to tactical marines, or scouts or crusader squads?
why not compare skyclaws, bloodclaws, swiftclaws to assault marines, jump assault marines and biker squads... Space wolves have much more inferior unit, so to keep harping on that Space wolves are op, when there are a lot of less useful unots are just bullgak and its right and fair we have a decent stop gap unit which helps hold it all together.
So go and build a superior combined arms codex marine army, while we stick to using he 1 or 2 decent units we have


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So nobody likes my flier idea huh?

 Jayden63 wrote:
On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?

If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.

I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.

I'll have to agree with others. The big problem with it is that, simply put. SW are the only ones that have it when no army really does (kinda nids as well sorta). Oh and tau in a supplement because why not tau. Anyways, if SM, CSM, chaos daemons, and pretty much every other army that has a fluffy reason to have it, got it back, it wouldn't be that bad. Although, to be rather honest that would likely make most psykers worthless and I'd probably have to shelf my Tzeentchian armies for good. Trust me, offensive psykers are already mediocre at best

I do love the Flyer idea.

On Grey Hunters vs. Crusaders:
That can’t be fair because Crusaders got ed
Or at least that what a lot out their claim.

Which is why many people Including space wolves players) would be happy to see a reduced bubble... because it is OP, the only person for whom i may still be justified is Nal, however as we are paying a minimum of 35 points more just now per psyker than a C:SM librarian, it would seem somewhat fair... however to bring them in line with others in 6th edition, ie drop the points , then yes a weakening of the bubble effect and JOTWW would be in order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu, the problem is that foks are zero-ing in on 1 unit in particular withou looking at the whole picture.
Space wolves are inferior in many other areas and require grey hunters to bolster things in those areas, just as I listed previously.
However the way the meta has been laid out, it means that sw can dispense with weaker units if they so choose and take the stop gap unit, the GH. This has led to the hate.
People would like to see gh nerfed and the rest of the troops and assault choices stay the same and thus dramatcally weaken the space wolves codex.
GH are one of the few things holding the army up.
If you took an army as a whole, the C:SM are far more competitive due to choice of unis and superiority in other areas and thus minimising the impact of the grey hunters as a whole.

What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?

Which allows blessings to work, but powers which harm your army still can be blocked?
If so then yes thats fine... Atleast with the bubble the protection isn tjust limited to the rune priest or the unit he is with

 Anpu42 wrote:
I do love the Flyer idea.

On Grey Hunters vs. Crusaders:
That can’t be fair because Crusaders got ed
Or at least that what a lot out their claim.

Fine then, CSM.

People would like to see gh nerfed and the rest of the troops and assault choices stay the same and thus dramatcally weaken the space wolves codex.

Nobody is saying this.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?

Why do you need better psychic hoods than everyone else? What you're describing is a Psychic Hood, except it's got 2 or 3 times the range. Why do Space Wolf Librarians need to arbitrarily be better all the friggin' time?

Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.

What would you do to make space wolves balanced?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.

What would you do to make space wolves balanced?

We've mentioned points reductions to loads of other things plenty of times, it's just that you yourself focus on the Grey Hunters because you don't disagree with the rest.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?

Like has been sugested a at least a few times before in difrent ways:
Yes that would be ok with me
My Sugetions
Njal: 24" Iron Will
Rune Priest: 12" Iron Will
Wolf Tooth Necklace: +1 Iron Will, posibly work for the whole Unit just to simplify things.

That's half of CT:BT in equipment available to pretty much every unit in your army. Just sayin'.

It must have gotten lost in all the blah blah GH hate, so please go ahead and refresh my memory again... What would you do to make the space wolves more balanced, and you cannot say tone down grey hunters everyhthing else is fine....
You can tone them down IF you can show me where other changes are made to balance them out.

Fair?

DOOMONYOU wrote:
What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?

I think they should be able to deny blessings but at an increased cost, and maybe a reduced weapon power or something.. Not sure.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?

I think they should be able to deny blessings but at an increased cost.

We are doing that now.

And at 35 points more for a lvl 1 rune priest over a lvl 1 librarian and 60 points more than a lvl 2 librarian compared to a lvl2 rune priest

 dantay_xv wrote:
And at 35 points more for a lvl 1 rune priest over a lvl 1 librarian and 60 points more than a lvl 2 librarian compared to a lvl2 rune priest

*Waits for you to realise how overpowered the denial bubble is*
*Waits a little more*
*Waits for you to realise that you're still being costed at 5th Edition points*
*Waits a little more*

 dantay_xv wrote:
It must have gotten lost in all the blah blah GH hate, so please go ahead and refresh my memory again... What would you do to make the space wolves more balanced, and you cannot say tone down grey hunters everyhthing else is fine....
You can tone them down IF you can show me where other changes are made to balance them out.

Fair?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To all the people whining about how Space Wolves should be nerfed... can you actually offer some suggestions? All I seem to be reading is whinging, can we get some actual suggestions?

Here's a few suggestion: Remove the 4+ denial on Rune Weapons, give Rune Priests a Psychic Hood (let Njal keep the denial, possibly with a drop to 5+). Drop Prices to same level as everyone else. Limit Long Fang weapons to 4 each, increase cost. Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.

Reduce the price of TWC. Reduce Blood Claws to 12 PPM. Reduce the cost of Skyclaws.

Give Logan 4 wounds to put him in line with other Chapter Masters.

Add suitably Wolfy relics (although you already have Sagas filling the same sort of role, something that no one else gets either...).

There's not that many suggestions to be made, because Space Wolves are mostly already better than the other Marine Codices, you just refuse to see it.

I'll add on some other stuff as well:

Some sort of AA.

Adjust vehicle prices to match 6th ed standards.

Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).

Lower Arjac's cost to something like 100 points and don't force him to upgrade from another Wolf Guard (again, IIRC, no one takes him).

Allow Wolf Scouts to assault from reserves.

Lower cost on Terminator wargear to not be insane.

Drop Wolf Lord cost to match other Captain-level Characters.

Add back Wulfen as stand-alone unit as one of the new plastic kits.

Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON

I use Thor...sorry Arjac all of time, but it is with an silly 13 model 1,500 point list with
Logan
Njal
Bjorn
Arjac
9 other Wolf Guard.

The funny thing is I still have not lost with it.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I use Thor...sorry Arjac all of time, but it is with an silly 13 model 1,500 point list with
Logan
Njal
Bjorn
Arjac
9 other Wolf Guard.

The funny thing is I still have not lost with it.

This describes your local meta.

I use Arjac all the time and rarely does he dissapoint. I'd like to see his points drop by 50 and I'm perfectly ok with him being an upgrade.

The bubble is not overpowered, the bubble has existed for 10 years and has been countering blessing since day one. Hell the oldest hoods were table wide. Armies that used blessings existed all this time too and still seemed to make their presence known.

The pure issue is that people dont want rune priests to have something that librarians dont. Its not over powered its not broken. If anything the psychic hood is the problem. It never should have been nerfed out of usefulness in the first place. And hopefully GW realizes the problem that blessings have started and make fixes to the hood in the main book thus fixing all SM armies at one time.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I use Thor...sorry Arjac all of time, but it is with an silly 13 model 1,500 point list with
Logan
Njal
Bjorn
Arjac
9 other Wolf Guard.

The funny thing is I still have not lost with it.

This describes your local meta.

Well don't break it out much, but it is fun.

I like about 99% of what you have suggested Almighty Walrus, thank you for your input there are some genuinely good ideas there for making acodex more balanced.
My one thing is a 2 point increase to the grey hunters, to say 17 points. But that is a personal thing, makes them pricier but cheaper than a wolf guard.
The other reason is purely selfish and that is because I have modelled most if not all my Grey Hunters with bolters in 1 hand and an axe in the other.
Wulfen would be a nice addition, but I am not sure where they would fit in a Space Wolf army.
In the fluff the only overtly wulfen space wolves are the 13th company, in general some space wolves change, but that is down to the stress of battle, from what I recall of the BL blloks and stuff, those who suffer the curse before becoming a Space Wolf are usually taken away and dealt with.
I am not sure what slot they could occupy, I have some metal wulfen and I have put them into my Grey hunter squads to represent the one woth MOTW.
Maybe as a retinue around a wolf priest, who would guide them in battle, like the wolf priests in the 13th company section of codex eye of terror?

I want a non FOC unit of wolfin (13th co.). 10-20 models. 20 pts each. However if more than one unit of wolfin (13th co) is taken then all wolfin (13th co) units are an elite choice.

WS5, BS3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A D3+2, LD8, SV3+

armed with tooth and claws

Special Rules -
Fearless
Fear
Rending
Heroic Intervention
Deep Strike
Kinship
return to the warp


Kinship - Wolfin (13th co.) units arrive via deepstrike. If the marker is placed within 6" of a model with the mark of the wolfin on the table the unit will not scatter.
Return to the Warp - When the game end all units of Wolfin (13th co) are removed from the tabletop. Units removed in this way never award kill points or victory points for the unit or even models killed during the game. However if the removal of all wolfin units makes it so the SW player has no models on the tabletop the SW player looses the game.