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 dantay_xv wrote:
Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.

That's not true. Most people have suggested Blood Claws need to get cheaper and some of the Fast Attack options need to get cheaper.

It's just the GH issue is a point of contention, so the other things getting cheaper was mentioned many pages back and not discussed further. It's on the GH that opinion varies.

Yes you are right, I get a bit heated sometimes and I apologise.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).

I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).

I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).

My thought on Frost Fang [S6, AP5, Mastercraft, Rending 5+]

Anpu42 wrote:The I used the Scientific Principle of once is a Fluke, Twice is a Coincidence, three times is Proof.

That's not a scientific principle I've ever heard.

dantay_xv wrote:I do actually understand mathematics pretty well, because mathematics is required for the job that I do, all I am saying is that people like myself are giving practial examples, whereas people like yourself keep quoting math hammer which is a theoretical exercise in probability, however what really happens is determined by the random effects of the roll of a dice, which cannot be quantified because it is random.

What do you mean it can't be quantified because it's random? It can be. You determine % chances of each event occurring and then determine the outcome of each result on the game. That's how a mathematically minded person figures out tactics. You could charge unit A in to unit B 10 times and then form an opinion of whether or not it's good... or you could determine the % chance of each possible outcome and decide the risk/reward ratio. Granted it's not always practical. But I think you underestimate the value of properly applied math (opposed to just throwing around averages which is amusingly what we call mathammer given how simplistic it is, there is much more rigorous mathematical testing that can be done).

Now, if you had of said the math hammer people do is insufficient, not rigorous enough, etc, I might have agreed with you. But saying random effects can't be quantified because they are random is simply not true.

Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun

Only when that practical application is rigorous in nature, which is not what I'd call most of what gets thrown around here (granted, the mathematics are not rigorous in nature either).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).

I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).

My thought on Frost Fang [S6, AP5, Mastercraft, Rending 5+]

That would be kind of cool. It would reduce his effectiveness against 3+ saves and increase it against 2+ saves.

I have used Ragnar and I find he is alright as he is. Not worth the points though.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.

That's not true. Most people have suggested Blood Claws need to get cheaper and some of the Fast Attack options need to get cheaper.

It's just the GH issue is a point of contention, so the other things getting cheaper was mentioned many pages back and not discussed further. It's on the GH that opinion varies.

A bit late but basically this. GH and Rune Priests are perhaps the most glaring irritations to others. I really don't know that much about Long Fangs (I really only know them from 5th edition but I feel they are probably not as good now) so I can't say much about them. Bar that, basically everything needs price readjustments and really most people agree on that. Pretty much every character except Rune Priests are overpriced is a good example of that. The question comes down to I suppose how much cheaper to make them good?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON

Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.

If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!

Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
I have used Ragnar and I find he is alright as he is. Not worth the points though.

My issue with him is not his price, with lots of Bllood Claws or Podding in but then when I use him I try to be as Fluffy as posible.

 Vombat wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON

Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.

If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!

Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.

I think Space Wolves should have a model re-release where they're upright Wolves with guns and power armour.
Anpu would like this.
He is a furry.
Wolves.
Maybe that's why he collects Space Wolves.

Martel732 wrote:
So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".

Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?

Skriker

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Vombat wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON

Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.

If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!

Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.

I think Space Wolves should have a model re-release where they're upright Wolves with guns and power armour.
Anpu would like this.
He is a furry.
Wolves.
Maybe that's why he collects Space Wolves.

Only partialy.
I collect Space Wolves becouse I love wolves.
I am making my Chaos Marines Anubis theamed becouse of my "Furryness"
The same if I can get the money together to make:
>Skaven Model Dark Eldar List
>Beastmen Imperial Guard.

 dantay_xv wrote:
Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?

Sound fun?

No it doesn't. In an Imperium that is LOSING technology and access to it through the years it is just silly that every group now has their own unique to their chapter vehicles, fliers and dreads. If it exists the mechanicum should be grabbing it and giving access to all so that they take full advantage of any found tech. There is no point for a unique space wolves flying transport when there is already a space marine flying transport that they can use.

I do love the concept of basically dumping bloodclaws out of the transport on a fly by, though. THAT sounds pretty amusing to me and reminds me of many a day against and ork friend who almost never stopped his transports and would just have his boyz bounce out as the trukks and battlewagons would keep rolling. Made for some funny moments when every boy would end up getting wounded and dying, so the trukk would just leave a strong of ork corpses in its wake without any casualities on the enemy.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?

Sound fun?

No it doesn't. In an Imperium that is LOSING technology and access to it through the years it is just silly that every group now has their own unique to their chapter vehicles, fliers and dreads. If it exists the mechanicum should be grabbing it and giving access to all so that they take full advantage of any found tech. There is no point for a unique space wolves flying transport when there is already a space marine flying transport that they can use.

I do love the concept of basically dumping bloodclaws out of the transport on a fly by, though. THAT sounds pretty amusing to me and reminds me of many a day against and ork friend who almost never stopped his transports and would just have his boyz bounce out as the trukks and battlewagons would keep rolling. Made for some funny moments when every boy would end up getting wounded and dying, so the trukk would just leave a strong of ork corpses in its wake without any casualities on the enemy.

Skriker

That sounds hilarious and very similar to the Valkyrie/Grav-Chute thing, but way more fun. It would have to be similarly dangerous, though, and I imagine the flyer would have to enter hover mode considering they'd be dropping men from several hundred feet in the air otherwise..

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".

Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?

Skriker

Pretty much. Yeah, WS are way worse than GH. But other marine chapters don't even have GH. Kind of tells you where they are at. They have to build around horrible troops and win in spite of them, not because of them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".

Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?

Skriker

Pretty much. Yeah, WS are way worse than GH. But other marine chapters don't even have GH. Kind of tells you where they are at. They have to build around horrible troops and win in spite of them, not because of them.

Especially us Blood Angels.

To be fair to the SW players, BA are so bad that that's not a fair comparison. But the new C:SM codex IS a fair comparison.

I am not sure that the wolves should ever get a flier. According to all the fluff I can remember they hate flying. Why would they get fliers that they would hate to have pilot?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am not sure that the wolves should ever get a flier. According to all the fluff I can remember they hate flying. Why would they get fliers that they would hate to have pilot?

They will just get a flying wolf instead of a flyer .

Maybe they should get super hunters and stalkers with skyfire AND interceptor.

Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.

No, no not the base model. The only have skyfire. I meant super Stalkers/Hunters with skyfire AND interceptor.

I'm more than willing to give Space Wolves all kinds of special stuff. They just shouldn't get to win against assault lists by showing up.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.

No, no not the base model. The only have skyfire. I meant super Stalkers/Hunters with skyfire AND interceptor.

I'm more than willing to give Space Wolves all kinds of special stuff. They just shouldn't get to win against assault lists by showing up.

Agreed on this one, I think they should be a hard counter to most, if not all other army lists, preferably by some kind of massive inbalance due to a codex creep.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.

No, no not the base model. The only have skyfire. I meant super Stalkers/Hunters with skyfire AND interceptor.

I'm more than willing to give Space Wolves all kinds of special stuff. They just shouldn't get to win against assault lists by showing up.

Agreed on this one, I think they should be a hard counter to most, if not all other army lists, preferably by some kind of massive inbalance due to a codex creep.

Yes, I would love to have entercepter, but I also think all Stalkers/Hunters and Hydra's should have it. Stalker/Hunters, Predators should also be avalible as 1-3 for one Heavy Slot.

Yeah well, the only part of this that might happen is the SW getting the interceptor. And I doubt that. It's just something that I think they should have.

I think that Rune Priests powers should ignore things like Shadow in the Warp, because Space wolves get their power from Fenris, not the warp. Call it Wolf Power if you want.

Make it a little more impossible for Tyranids to beat SW?

Martel732 wrote:
Make it a little more impossible for Tyranids to beat SW?

Don't forget.. Orks, Black Templars, Blood Angels, CSMs...

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I think that Rune Priests powers should ignore things like Shadow in the Warp, because Space wolves get their power from Fenris, not the warp. Call it Wolf Power if you want.

Except for the fact that their powers actually do come from the warp

Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.


Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.