What do you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?

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**StarTrotter**

Jayden63 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

The thing is they will always be Marines. It doesn't matter what you do, the fluff says they are Marines. Necrons? The fluff divides them and stats are different. Sisters of Battle? The fluff is entirely different and stats as well. CSM though? No matter what one does, they still are simply Marines. It's because of a fluff perception combined with several other aspects. The only possible way is to make every unit different, remove almost every tank, remove GH, build everything from the ground up with different stats and all and then, whilst people would call them Marines, they probably wouldn't call them Marines+1.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Jayden63 wrote:
Seriphm are just assault marines

That is just SO wrong !
Seraphim have I3, S3, E3, A1, and come with two bolt pistols. They have Hit and run. They can swap their bolt pistols for hand flamers or inferno pistols. They, however, cannot swap their bolt pistols with any kind of close combat weapon. They are an harassment, shooty unit. They only charge to finish off an almost dead unit, or to avoid being shot at, because they suck at close combat. They do not function in any way like the close combat oriented assault marines.

Jayden63 wrote:
dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices)

No. Retributors are devastator squads.

Jayden63 wrote:
Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines

Because they are not in the fluff. Oh, and because they use completely different models. And because they do not have the staple profile and rule that every marine army have, like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule.

**Martel732**

It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

**ZebioLizard2**

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

**Martel732**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

**ZebioLizard2**

Martel732 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

As I just said, certain armies it's useless, but once it's gone you feel it, but that's because of how the edition is.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game.

And so ? I did not say it was an autowin button. I said it was stupid. It shuts down completely a whole aspect of the game.
Those list you spoke about are just another completely stupid thing. There are many insanely stupid things in this game.

**Martel732**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

As I just said, certain armies it's useless, but once it's gone you feel it, but that's because of how the edition is.

Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all. And once was against CSM.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all.

Because almost nobody tailors their list toward making use of morale. And nobody tailors their list to make use of morale because half the armies ignore every possible malus from morale. Circular problem is circular.

**Martel732**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all.

Because almost nobody tailors their list toward making use of morale. And nobody tailors their list to make use of morale because half the armies ignore every possible malus from morale. Circular problem is circular.

Why tailor for morale, when you can just kill your opponent?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Oh, I see. You do not know. Our puny models get KILLED when they fail a morale test and are caught in a sweeping advance. Yes, even if they have T9, a 2++, FNP2+ and 10HP. Same thing when they flee out of the board.

**Martel732**

ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

I'm well aware of how sweeping advance works. It's also largely irrelevant, since getting into HTH is usually far more difficult than winning said HTH. After turn after turn of scatterlaser fire, you have nothing left to sweep with or be swept away.

Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

Not once they are 12" away from the edge of the table. Because they autorally, and get an extra movement before doing a full turn, allowing them to stay largely out of danger

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

I have no idea, because there is no reason to even try.

**Martel732**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

Not once they are 12" away from the edge of the table. Because they autorally, and get an extra movement before doing a full turn, allowing them to stay largely out of danger .

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

I have no idea, because there is no reason to even try.

So you complain about being unable to implement a mechanic that you are unsure of even how to attempt. There is such a thing as BA fear circus, but there are also many lists like Orks, CSM, and Tyranids that are straight up fearless, that is is a poor choice. Vehicles are also fearless, and so Codex: Wave Serpent is also fearless. Morale tricks really only hurt Tau and IG badly as far I can tell. There's no reason to single out ATSKNF with so much fearless out there. Both ATSKNF models and fearless models die real well to scatter lasers.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Martel732 wrote:
but there are also many lists like Orks, CSM, and Tyranids that are straight up fearless

CSM are not fearless, Orks are not once they are less than 10, and tyranids are not fearless when out of synapse range.

Martel732 wrote:
Vehicles are also fearless, and so Codex: Wave Serpent is also fearless.

Only if you play it as Codex: Wave Serpent, which is yet another stupid thing in this game.

Martel732 wrote:
Morale tricks really only hurt Tau and IG badly as far I can tell.

Sisters will not like it either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, fearless model do not get benefit from fleeing, unlike ATSKNF models.

**StarTrotter**

The problem with and they shall know no fear is it breaks rules. Fail combat? You can retreat and not worry about being swept! Fear? Doesn't work. Terrify that cancels out fear? Doesn't cancel out ATSKNF. What's that? You automatically regroup, never have to worry about being below 25%, auto-regroup, free move, and don't snapfire. Yes, it means little against Tau and Eldar but it is the same reason we are arguing about GH. GH, in comparison to many things, aren't that great but in comparison to other SM they are. Anyways, I think we might have gotten a little off track

Also:
CSM: Only Possessed, Cult Marines, Icon of Vengeance, and Chaos Lords are Fearless. The rest aren't (I might have missed one or two but can't think of them)
Orks: Ork rule makes that more complex
Eldar: Wraith is the exception. Everything else isn't.
Tyranids: Only fearless and synapse and once out can easily tear themselves apart
IG: a few stubborn providers
Necrons: ld10
All loyalist SM: ATSKNF
Chaos Daemons: Pseudo-fearless-but-not-entirely
Tau: Low leadership but stubborn bubble if memory serves me is one one model
Sisters: A bit above average ld is all
DE: Not much in terms of fearless and the sorts.

**Martel732**

My problem with complaints about ATSKNF breaking rules is that it breaks rules that rarely matter in the current state of the game. Sure, in 3rd, I'll completely agree with you. Tau/Daemons/Eldar don't care about ATSKNF, because their plan A is make the marines dead.

**Ironclad Warlord**

I have a problem with each chapter getting a codex. Why do the puny humans of the guard get one, and the puny humans of chaos just get lumped in chaos space marines.

PUNY HUMANS UNITE!!!

**Skriker**

Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I believe that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves should be Space Marines +1 and are willing to pay for it.
Note the key words SOULD and PAY.

I have DAs and Space Wolves and don't think that any of those should be Space marines +1. They are all space marines. That is what they should be. Only GKs should be space marines +1 because they are supposed to be the best of the rest and are trained even more beyond that. This is pretty much why I hate the fact that there are BA, DA and SW codecies, because it creates this general feeling of need that because they have their own books that they should be better than standard marines, when they should all be at the same level.

Skriker

**BrotherOfBone**

Jayden63 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

Necrons
4+ armour save, resurrection, different initiative, different look, entirely different weapon.
JUST LIKE MARINES.

**ZebioLizard2**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

Necrons
4+ armour save, resurrection, different initiative, different look, entirely different weapon.
JUST LIKE MARINES.

Hold on, he may be onto something.

We'll just change Space Wolves Boltgun's into Wolf shooters, they'll be S3, Ap4 guns, and due to the fact that they wield wooden shields into combat as part of tradition, they don't get Bolt Pistols, or wolf pistols as it may be, and because tradition eschews they show as much of their body as possible to show less cowardice, they gain LD10, but only have a 4+ save due to the power armor being removed in various area's.

There.

**BrotherOfBone**

Also, because of their amazing strength and survivability they should come back on a 5+!
WE'VE GOT A PLAN GUYS

**Jayden63**

Talk about missing the point.

Necron Warrior
WS 4, BS 4, T 4, W 1, I 2, A 1, 4+ sav, LD 10
S4 AP5 rapid fire weapon 13 points. Chapter tactics of Reanimation protocals, and gauss weaponry.

Hell - immortals have the 3+ armor save and a better gun. Same "chapter tactics" though, even closer to the Marine stat line.

My point is that once you go MEQ, all the stats start to look the same, its only the individual perception that makes people want to have everything be copy/pasted.

And while the divergent marines dont have to be treated as basic marines, sadly they are, its more due to GW refusal to get away from the D6 die and the limited range that stats and weapons, that people start to shoe horn everything into one or two molds.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Skriker wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I believe that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves should be Space Marines +1 and are willing to pay for it.
Note the key words SOULD and PAY.

I have DAs and Space Wolves and don't think that any of those should be Space marines +1. They are all space marines. That is what they should be. Only GKs should be space marines +1 because they are supposed to be the best of the rest and are trained even more beyond that. This is pretty much why I hate the fact that there are BA, DA and SW codecies, because it creates this general feeling of need that because they have their own books that they should be better than standard marines, when they should all be at the same level.

Skriker

Chapter specific codices should be massively more limited than C:SM, but better at a specific task, not just "marines + 1".

**BrotherOfBone**

Jayden63 wrote:
Talk about missing the point.

Necron Warrior
WS 4, BS 4, T 4, W 1, I 2, A 1, 4+ sav, LD 10
S4 AP5 rapid fire weapon 13 points. Chapter tactics of Reanimation protocals, and gauss weaponry.

Hell - immortals have the 3+ armor save and a better gun. Same "chapter tactics" though, even closer to the Marine stat line.

My point is that once you go MEQ, all the stats start to look the same, its only the individual perception that makes people want to have everything be copy/pasted.

And while the divergent marines dont have to be treated as basic marines, sadly they are, its more due to GW refusal to get away from the D6 die and the limited range that stats and weapons, that people start to shoe horn everything into one or two molds.

There's nothing special about WS4, BS4, T4, W1 and A1. They're not exactly defining stats, and the weapons are completely different.
They're also different aesthetically.
Also why is everything a chapter tactic?? It's just an SR for Necrons. It's also dissimilar to CTs in that it can be altered by a Necron Lord with Resurrection Orb. (Inb4 Marneus Calgar, he just lets you do it more).

**Martel732**

There is something special about those stats: you pay for WS 4, S 4, and A 1 that you'll likely never get to use. And if you do, odds are those stats aren't helping anyway.

**AlexRae**

Space Wolves are a 'MEQ' army. Its just NO ONE uses the guys with lower stats and more attacks.

Grey Hunters are as they should be. For people who say they are too good, I would say this... in competitive play it is so rare that you see power-armoured infantry. They are not effective enough for their points. And so you see Marine Scouts, Chaos Cultists, or more powerful models like Marine Bikers who get t5 and cover saves on top of their 3+. 15 points for a Grey Hunter given what they do is why you see them taken.

The Wolf Banner is a great piece of Wargear which allows the unit to basically pop a feat once a game. This means they can perform above and beyond their limitations in combat. Given that 6th edition is so shooting heavy it is not really overpowered. It is very situational.

I would say that the free second weapon at 10 men should go. They should pay for them both.

Making them gak and useless just like Vanilla and Chaos infantry marines is not beneficial to anyone.

**Anpu42**

Well I just got my Computer back after my Hard Drive Died Hard. So lets have an update.

War Gear:
>Frost Blade: Points 20
>Frost Axe: 20 Points
>Wolf Claw: Re-Roll To Hit or Wounds, if bought as a Pair, Re-Roll Both
>Wolf Tail Talisman: Iron Will

HQ:
>Logan: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Ragnar: Points Drop, Frost Fangs (S5, AP4, Mastercraft, Rending 5+)
>Njal: Points Drop, 24” +1 Deny the Witch
>Ulric: Points Drop, Oath of War
>Canis: Points Drop: Belt of Run, Paired Wolf Claws, Rending
>Björn: Belt of Russ, +1 HP
>Lukus: Bloodclaw only HQ, can buy Bike or Jump Pack
>Wolf Lord: Points Drop, Belt of Russ Standard, +1 Wound
>Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Rune Priest: Points Drop, 12” +1 Deny the Witch
>Wolf Priest: Points Drop
>Iron Priest: One per HQ [New Idea: True HQ, Dreadnaught FOC Changes, and Take as Heavy. If Warlord Dreadnaught 1-3 Model Squadrons]

Elites:
>Dreadnaughts: Points Change, possible Anti-Air Version
>Lone Wolf: 1-3 Lone Wolves or taken out of the FOC
>Wolf Guard: Jump Pack Wolf Guard can join Skyclaws.
>Wolf Scouts: No Real Changes
>Ironclad Dreadnaught [New Model]: Give Accesses to

Troops:
>Grey Hunters:>Pay for both Special Weapons
>Bloodclaws: Points drop, Options for a 5++ Shield, Pay for both Special Weapons

Fast Attack:
>Fenrisian Wolves: Able to take all Cyberwolves
>Land Speeders: Price brought in line with Codex Space Marines.
>Skyclaws: Drop in Price
>Swiftclaws: Drop in Price
>Thunderwolf Cavalry: Drop in Price
>Flyer [New Model]: Fills Fighter Role

Heavy Support:
>Land Raider: No Real Changes
>Long Fangs: Points Adjustment, Flakk Missiles [Going Retro: Loose Counter-Attack]
>Predator Tank: Points Drop, Space Wolf only model, Squadrons
>Vindicator: Points Drop, Squadrons
>Whirlwind: Points Drop, Anti-Air Option
>Stalker/Hunter: Like Access
>Flyer [New Model]: Transport

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

So many point drops !

**Anpu42**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So many point drops !

Ok...I got lazy, most of the "Points Drops" should be "Points Brought in Line"